FCS and Gunner

By DB Draft, in X-Wing Rules Questions

Posted at

This subject again... Only with FCS instead of Vader....

IMO, though the mechanic is not entirely clear, the FAQ already has provided some kind of answer to this matter.

Q: If a ship attacks twice through some effect,
such as the Gunner upgrade, can the ship
use the ability of Darth Vader (the Upgrade
card) twice?
A: Yes, once after each attack.
It happens that FCS has the same trigger as Vader: "After you perform an attack..." . So we could safely assume that under the same circumstances, they should trigger at the same, equivalent time. Since the FAQ, in addition, give us the order of resolution (Once after each attack), the sequence would be:
Attack >> Vader >> Gunner >> Vader
Having FCS essentially the same mechanical activation as Vader, the sequence would consecuentially be:
Attack >> FCS >> Gunner >> FCS
Yes, I know the inherent problems associated with the word 'immediately'. But note that ATM, we don't have anything definitive nor clear to enlighten us about the meaning or exact effects of 'immediately'. However, whether we like it or not, we have an entry FAQ that especifically tells us how to resolve an "after you perform an attack" effect associated with gunner. So, unless more information is given to us from FFG, I would recommend following the above sequence.
Edited by Jehan Menasis
Posted at

Off the top of my head:

- Proximity Mine and Boost/Barrel Roll

- Obstacle collision when your template overlaps it but you stop short

- Nien Numb on a failed K-turn

- Measuring before attempting a boost

- Maneuver difficulty conflict and the Swarm Tactics conflict ruling you relayed:

As bombs are not obstacles that ruling is obviously correct

Obstacles collision, your template crossed the obstacle so yes again obviously correct.

Measuring before a boost its in the rules as well, but you can enforce the competitive play rules if you so desire.

Swarm tactics was rather obvious as well, you just didn't want to listen to other people's comments and had read far to much into the rules. Its defiantly not a because I said so ruling ;-)

Nien Numb the dial revealed a red his ability only works on white I don't know how that was ever an issue.

This is pretty much absolute gibberish. Again. What exactly does a proximity mine not being an obstacle have to do with the explicit instructions on when to detonate it?? Half of these you obviously haven't read the FAQ on, and the other half you haven't read the actual rules on.

But let's try with some detail. Maybe you'll learn something, but at the very least anyone who stumbles on this discussion won't get drawn down your rabbit hole.

Proximity Mine: Card says it detonates when a ship hits it during a maneuver. Boost and barrel roll are not maneuvers, and accordingly should not detonate it per a strict reading. But it does.

Obstacle collision: If your template crosses an obstacle but you stop short due to overlapping, the FAQ says you DO NOT actually hit the obstacle. There is no such condition in the rules. But you said that "your template crossed the obstacle so yes again obviously correct" which makes it sound like you think you DID hit it, which is not what the FAQ says.

Measuring before boost: No, it's not actually in the rules. Should it have been? Almost certainly. But it's not, which means the FAQ's ruling contradicts those rules.

Swarm Tactics: If you have competing effects on maneuvers, the worst ones win. If you have competing effects on Pilot Skill, the last one applied wins. How is this not a contradiction?

Nien Numb: Really? That's going to be a shock to all the people excited for what he can do on a B-wing... Except it won't, because his ability says nothing about a white maneuver, only straights. When you fail a K-turn, the rules say you turn the K-turn into a straight. He affects straights. But not THOSE straights. Or something.

Every single one of these presents a case where a ruling is made in pretty direct contradiction to the rules. FFG obviously doesn't like doing errata - they'd rather just rule it to play it how they want it to work. But the problem with that is that errata is clean, where rulings are not. If you errata Proximity Mine to detonate any time a ship hits it (rather than just during a maneuver) you know exactly what the scope of the change is. Or you errata the rules as a whole so that any action which moves your ship triggers any abilities which depend on maneuvers. Either way, you know what's going on.

You'd make a better cheerleader for FFG if you weren't so obviously uninformed on... well, everything.

Edited by Buhallin
Posted at

Did anyone read the article in defense of the shuttle FFG posted, one of the builds Buzsaw actually uses FCS and Gunner and explains that you do get to use FCS after both attacks.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4699

i did read this article and just over looked that part.

it explains it quite well, which leads me to believe that immediately does mean absolutely nothing in the timing of effects.

Posted at

i did read this article and just over looked that part.

it explains it quite well, which leads me to believe that immediately does mean absolutely nothing in the timing of effects.

Again - we actually don't have any examples of this which don't involve Gunner. It's just as likely to mean that Gunner shouldn't be immediate as it is to demolish any meaning to a word which appears repeatedly.

Posted at

i did read this article and just over looked that part.

it explains it quite well, which leads me to believe that immediately does mean absolutely nothing in the timing of effects.

Again - we actually don't have any examples of this which don't involve Gunner. It's just as likely to mean that Gunner shouldn't be immediate as it is to demolish any meaning to a word which appears repeatedly.

I stillmaintain that the immediate in Gunner is to stop you activating gunner and shooting with a different ship before the second shot with the gunner ship.

Posted at

Well you can maintain anything you want. ;)

And you may very well be right, but that's the problem; because they FAQ everything on a question by question basis, and refuse to errata anything to reword for clarity and intent, more and more weird interactions and inconsistent precedents are going to pop up.

Pretty soon Cluster Missiles are going to have their own addendum in the FAQ, where they just list how it interacts with every other card. :P

Posted at

I stillmaintain that the immediate in Gunner is to stop you activating gunner and shooting with a different ship before the second shot with the gunner ship.

You wouldn't be allowed to do this even if Gunner didn't say "immediate".

When the trigger condition for any ability is met, you do it right then. Could you wait until next turn for Night Beast's new focus action? Heck, could you wait half a step until after his stress clears? We actually have plenty of examples of this in the FAQ which, if "after" were flexible, wouldn't really hold. Night Beast and the varying timing rules with R2-D2 come to mind.

Just to elaborate on the point with Night Beast: If you take a green while he's stressed, you don't get his free focus action because his ability triggers based on the maneuver, and you don't clear his stress until the next step - so when his ability goes off, you can't take the action. If there were any ability to delay an ability until later just because it doesn't say immediately, you could just "hold" it until after the stress had cleared in Step 4, then take your freebie. We know you can't though.

Posted at

My opinion, the immediately would prevent you from shooting with one ship, missing, shooting with another ship of the same ps, and then coming back to the first ship for your second shot. I agree that there is a timing issue with FCS and gunner, but gunner is a seperate attack, and FCS activates at the end of the attack sequence. i would allow the TL before the gunner attack. I believe the FAQ with Vader supports this as well. Hopefully we get it clarified once and for all in the next FAQ.