So, I'm planning a trip to the planet Lundunder next session. Firearms are strictly prohibited in the 'hanging cities' due to fear of breaches (as per Inquisitor's Handbook ), so Landrians have developed elaborate knife-fighting techniques over the centuries- similar to the way Asian peasants invented the Martial Arts to compensate for their lack of weapons in areas plagued by bandits.

Sounds good, but in looking over the melee-based Talents in the Core Rulebook , not a whole lot is jumping out at me for representing 'deadly knife-fighting arts'. There are extra attacks and parries, of course, but I'm not seeing anything other than Crushing Blow (+2 damage) and Street Fighter (extra Critical damage) that would make knives more than just a joke to heavily-armoured PCs, even if they have the 'mono' upgrade.

Does anyone know of any existing gimmicks that I can use to make knife-fighters a legit threat, or do I need to house-rule a new Talent? (Like, say, Landrian Knife-Master: the character adds his Agility Bonus to a knife's Penetration value...?)

I.. don't actually have any suggestions, I just wanted to say that I think that the idea of adding AB to small Rending/Piercing-weapons is a great idea, and makes a whole lot more sense than Strength, anyway.

I think I'm going to have choice weapons (chosen on a per-weapon basis) scale of of Agility, and then have a Talent that lets you also add Strength.

Uhm.. sorry. Just musing.

That being said, no, I don't know of anything existing in Dark Heresy (or any WH40KRP) that would specifically make you better with knives and such. If you're not alien to inventing your own Talents, I think having one that allows you to add the "Razor Sharp" Special Quality to all Knife-weapons might be a good idea. And if a knife-weapon already has Razor Sharp, add Tearing.

Or something to that effect.

Look at "Hostile Acquisitions" RT book. Manhunter alternate rank has a couple of interesting talents.

Put the knife at -20WS to hit against armed opponents (like it should be in real life) and put the knife's damage to 1D10 instead, would do the job; if no one is wearing long weapon, then the attacks aren't at -20, and then, it becomes ugly fast enough.

Might be worth a look at the Rogue Trader supplement Soul Reaver, if you have access to it - it contains the rules (including weapons and talents) for the 40k universe's premier knife fighters, the Dark Eldar Wytches. Probably a good place to steal inspiration from. http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/rogue-trader/support/the-dark-kin/The%20Dark%20Kin%20WQ.pdf Has some material as well.

One thing that they do that I can remember is have a statline for a knife which looks more like a mono-sword (D10), but only uses the normal statline for a knife (D5) "if used by someone untrained".

Adding Agility Bonus to knife damage is a cool idea and I support it wholeheartedly.

Might be inappropriate given the no-destructive-weapons prohibition, but power knives are always an option.

There are talents (whose name I forget because I'm a cretin) which allow called shots in melee without penalty. Precise Blow? I think? Being able to stab someone in the unarmoured bits is a useful talent.

Poisons might be useful, although a poisoned knife is good for bringing down someone you wound but doesn't help you wound the bugger in the first place.

There is a weapon trait (again, can't remember the name!) in some sourcebooks - I think the Inquisitor's Handbook - which applies a penalty to parrying attacks. Stilletos have it, for example.

A interesting way to get around this is perhaps not to make weapons stronger but to give the PCs a reason to remove their armor, for example:

- Heat wave: the area they are in is stiffing hot, the 2 suns of the solar system beat down harshly baking the red ground under your feet. Whenever anyone who is wearing armor wants to perform a physical action take a toughness test. If failed suffer -1 Fatigue.

- Stairway to heaven: The city the PCs are exploring if built on a cliff face and there are no elevators. The locals believe that walking up and down the hundreds and thousands of steep steps between levels shows their strength. Any PC wearing heavy armor suffers from -1 Fatigue for every thousand steps they walk without 1 hour rest.

- Cramped: The city is a hive of small backstreets and passageways. All but the main streets are too small for anyone wearing armor to walk freely. If PC is in a cramped spot wearing armor they suffer -10 to reaction and agility tests.

I could keep going.

Give the PCs a reason to take off their armor and suddenly common sword becomes allot more menacing.

Hope this helps!

Sgt Oddity

Well, following the same logic as 'knives only because they might breach the walls', you might have local custom look askance at anyone who wears armour too heavy to swim in. Anyone wearing such would stand out like a sore thumb, seriously impeding one's ability to perform covert Inquisitorial shenanigans...

If there was a big issue with popping the city skin I would think blunt weapons such as staffs, clubs. knuckle dusters and other such bludgeoning implements would be more likely to be the weapon of choice than spiky made-for-piercing knives?

The knife is much smaller , it is easy to hide - so the knife allows surprise attack .

Also, in real life a knife wound is more dangerous than injuries from bludgeoning weapon. Unfortunately, this is not reflected in game characteristics .

.

The knife is much smaller, it is easy to hide - so the knife allows surprise attack.

Also, in real life a knife wound is more dangerous than injuries from bludgeoning weapon. Unfortunately, this is not reflected in game characteristics.

.

And those are definitely comparable to being cut. A stab-wound might pierce your stomach without hitting any vital organs, just as well as a baseball bat or pipe might right-up rupture your spleen. Regular knives won't pass through or cut through bones, but a crushing wound from a metal staff is a fast-track to necessary amputation if it crushes your bones, and definitely have a higher chance of at least shattering it, resulting in a long recovery.

I don't think that all of this should be represented in the rules too much, because it quickly gets quite involved - I just reacted to the belief that a knife-wound is more dangerous than injuries from a bludgeoning weapon.

I'd definitely prefer being stabbed in the gut rather than having my kneecaps baseballed, and I'd rather have my arm cut off with a sword than crushed with a mechadendrite.

I suppose its the simple question, would you rather be crushed to death or stabbed to death.

I for one, volunteer to be the stabber or the crusher so you can tell me.

Depends on the wound. I like to imagine that bludgeoning weapons are more serious weapons in the context of the rules than a knife; while a rending weapon can be a simple knife, most bludgeoning weapons are metal pipes or worse.

Of course, depends on the wound . But world police statistics show that the most lethal weapon is a kitchen knife...

The knife is much smaller , it is easy to hide - so the knife allows surprise attack .

Also, in real life a knife wound is more dangerous than injuries from bludgeoning weapon. Unfortunately, this is not reflected in game characteristics .

.

Patently untrue. Having a portion of your anatomy crushed or ruptured by blunt trauma is far worse than having a neat little hole poked in you at least from a standpoint of sheer impairment of function.

As for the kitchen knife being a more lethal implement that`s a question of scale, there are simply more kitchen knives in the world than there are readily available blunt weapons. I mean most people have about half a dozen sharp knives in their kitchen so when that killing mood comes upon them it`s kind of the go-to item.

Of course, depends on the wound . But world police statistics show that the most lethal weapon is a kitchen knife...

No, it shows that a kitchen knife is more often used in lethal situations. Unless you want to argue that a kitchen knife is more dangerous than a handgun.

The knife is much smaller , it is easy to hide - so the knife allows surprise attack .

Also, in real life a knife wound is more dangerous than injuries from bludgeoning weapon. Unfortunately, this is not reflected in game characteristics .

.

Patently untrue. Having a portion of your anatomy crushed or ruptured by blunt trauma is far worse than having a neat little hole poked in you at least from a standpoint of sheer impairment of function.

As for the kitchen knife being a more lethal implement that`s a question of scale, there are simply more kitchen knives in the world than there are readily available blunt weapons. I mean most people have about half a dozen sharp knives in their kitchen so when that killing mood comes upon them it`s kind of the go-to item.

I don't know about that.. I think it's more a matter of knives being there during heated arguments. If I'm planning something, there's metal pipes readily available everywhere. Hell, I've got a lamp right here on my desk that would make a great improvised weapon.

The foot on this thing is just.. dear lord, is it filled with lead or what..

No, it shows that a kitchen knife is more often used in lethal situations. Unless you want to argue that a kitchen knife is more dangerous than a handgun.

The average mortality from knife wounds - more than 70 percent. Of bullet wound from a pistol - less than 20 percent.

The knife is much smaller , it is easy to hide - so the knife allows surprise attack .

Also, in real life a knife wound is more dangerous than injuries from bludgeoning weapon. Unfortunately, this is not reflected in game characteristics .

.

Patently untrue. Having a portion of your anatomy crushed or ruptured by blunt trauma is far worse than having a neat little hole poked in you at least from a standpoint of sheer impairment of function.

To bring the enemy down with blunt weapon - you need to hit the joints or head. It's not as easy as it may seem. On the other hand, knife wound often leads to extensive blood loss - veins and arteries, as well as a large abdominal vessels are on the surface of the body. Penetrating stabbing wounds often lead to shock.

When I was studying to be a police officer, we were told that the knife had the greatest killing percentage, even before a 9mm pistol. There are plenty of way to "soak" a hit from a baseball bat or other "crushing" weapon of that kind; when the knife, unless you get it out pointing somewhere else than on you, will pierce your flesh, cut something vital and kill you or wound you a severe way.

As facinating as this all is it doesn`t change my original point.

On a world where weapons are prohibited due to fear of holing the walls wouldn`t a blunt weapon that has less chance of holing the walls accidentally be more likely to be weapon of choice? Not least because it could be broken down into parts that are not obvioulsy a weapon.

I was thinking pipe tonfas (which IIRC are basically a nightstick) or something. Or failing that why not that old staple of violent humans everwhere: bare hands?

If there was a big issue with popping the city skin I would think blunt weapons such as staffs, clubs. knuckle dusters and other such bludgeoning implements would be more likely to be the weapon of choice than spiky made-for-piercing knives?

I'm just staying true to the established background, as per Inquisitor's Handbook , page 123: "By ancient accord, no citizen of Landunder is permitted to carry a firearm because of the danger they pose to the structure of the city itself. Over the generations, the use of blades has become universal and this world has birthed some of the greatest knife-fighters in Calixian history."

In other words, there's logic , and then there's 40K logic ...

There is a simple enough solution really, exotic rending weapons that have a special rule allowing you to add your Agility Bonus to damage instead of Strength Bonus.

Landunderian Razor spiral:

This weapon takes the form of a double helix wound around the user`s forearm which entwine over the back of the hand in a short blade that typicallly protrudes no more that ten centimetes over the knuckles.

Traditionally used in pairs the razor spiral allows users to both parry blows and perform attacks at foes with their forearms, as well as making slashing and stabbing attacks with the conventional blades.

Formed from a single continuous pentagonal band of plasteel and edged with monofilament strands on three sides the razor spiral is almost as dangerous to an untrained handler as it is to a trained users victim. Unforunately most Landunderian blademasters will die before willingly imparting the spiral`s secrets to an outsider.

exotic 1d10 R pen 2 Mono, balanced, speed over strength*

*Speed over strength

Due to it`s elegant nature this weapon is designed to favour trained precision and speed over sheer brawn and determination. The user adds their agility bonus to damage rather than strength bonus as nomal.

Segmented bladewhips and knifechuks ahoy!

This way you can have knife-ninjas that pose a serious thrat up close without handing seriously broken statboosted uberknives to canny handflamer wielding acolytes.