Hey, they used my argument on the most recent news article !

And they did a good job of cutting around the unprintable parts. When I said he 'stunk', I was responding to criticism from boardgamegeek where someone posted a statistical analysis (pshaw) claiming that Fisk was the worst runner identity ever by a lot (WAY worse than release-day Whizzard). For the record, I don't think he stinks. The phrase "we definitely need some criminal variety" also might have been too harsh, I'm a big fan of what FFG has done with the game so far, and that was meant to underscore the fact that Fisk opens up a completely new playstyle (similar to Noise or The Professor) and we already have 5 Shaper IDs and only 2 criminal ones. Kudos to the newswriter for printing the best parts of my argument.

And for the record, I have no idea why my original post was entirely highlighted in white. I tried to fix it but I couldn't.

Fisk clearly is all about the HQ access for scoring. It's probably the best anti-fast advance card out there, of which we've seen basically nothing.

Sure, if you have Nerve Agent and/or HQ Interfaces out, your chances of picking an agenda that's in their hand is reasonable. But those cards need setup time, time in which it becomes increasingly inefficient to run a central (Pheromones might work here). Still, that's decent pressure, but you can get that without Fisk just by running the cards mentioned.

In any other scenario, you're taking a gamble, and it seems like you'll usually see the worst of it. Let's say you run HQ, corp has 4 cards in hand and you force them to draw a card. If they had an agenda in hand and drew a blank, you've now decreased your chances of accessing it. If they didn't have an agenda an drew one, you now have a 20% chance of accessing it, whereas it would have been 100% if you ran R&D.

I don't like Fisk's ability because it doesn't really give you control -- an unknown card changes location. It's like Noise's ability, except not good, because the unknown cards move to a server that people are protecting early against Criminals anyhow.

Now, I will admit all this is just my theorizing without having played the card. I'll proxy it and try and build a deck around it soon, and maybe I'll eat my words after. But in my mind it's just not adding up.

I don't like Fisk's ability because it doesn't really give you control -- an unknown card changes location. It's like Noise's ability, except not good, because the unknown cards move to a server that people are protecting early against Criminals anyhow.

What you forget is that there are cards that let you know what is on top of R&D, so you do have control over which -if any- card goes to HQ.

The great thing about Fisk is that you can't really lock him out. If you protect R&D, he can attack HQ and still see the first card of R&D. If you protect HQ, he can force the corp to draw and dig R&D deeper and faster. If you protect all centrals, good luck protecting remote servers against Inside Jobs unless you are FA.

And as his card says, "Timming is everything". When the corp is low on cards, you don't feed them more cards. His ability works best when the corp has a full hand and you force them to discard cards, or clog HQ with agendas, which you can steal with HQ Interface or Nerve Agent.

What you forget is that there are cards that let you know what is on top of R&D, so you do have control over which -if any- card goes to HQ.

Indexing is a lot of influence, which you'll probably want to spend on getting efficient breakers, so you can repeatedly run centrals, and once they've drawn past it, you're in the dark again. That leaves Deep Thought; after you've managed to set it up, the way you're probably going to use it is running R&D when there's a blank on top, forcing the corp to draw it, and hope there's an agenda one card down. Which is a decent use, but goes against the whole "pounding HQ" theme that people say he's about. And you might as well just put down an R&D Interface instead and see the top two from R&D instead.

I suppose if you're set up for multiple-card HQ access, you can force them to draw the agenda from the top of R&D on an HQ run, but you'll want to do that when you know you'll see their whole hand. And it has to be cheaper for you to run HQ than R&D.

And you might as well just put down an R&D Interface instead and see the top two from R&D instead.

For me that is the key. You can apply pressure to all 3 central servers and force the corp to spread their defenses too thin (needless to say I use Sneakdoor Beta).

Indexing is too expensive influence-wise because it is a one-use only, whereas Deep Though/Medium/Nerve Agent have more repeated value.

Deep Thought gives you options: run R&D if an agenda is coming; otherwise, you can run R&D, force the corp to draw the card and see one (preferably more) new card(s), OR you can run HQ (via Archives if cheaper) without forcing the draw.

FFG has said that whichever ID wins they will print cards that will support that ID. This means that if Fisk wins we'll get more interesting card that give the runner more control over R&D and more incentive to force the corp to draw. This is good for the game since it will mean more interaction between Corp and Runner and more thinking.

If the collective wins we'll probably get more cards that do stuff for clicks (and probably cards for the corp to balance out the insane economy the collective can get). This is not good for the game because giving the runner more actions actually promotes a solitaire kind of play because the incentive is to only run when your rig is fully set up since once it is up it is unstoppable so you just sit back and wait and then run with your 3 R&D interfaces (that you both drew and installed for 2 click thanks to the replicator) bypassing any ice you want because you can get 10 creds a turn with MO or put 4 counters on Datasucker a turn and still have a click left to run With that kind of economy you can run a Crypsis only deck if you wanted too but you'll have your Atmans out and there is litteraly nothing the corp can do. And if FFG does balance the game for the collective and gives the Corp equal type of economies then that means that all the IDs we play with today will be useless. I think that would be a shame.

And if FFG does balance the game for the collective and gives the Corp equal type of economies then that means that all the IDs we play with today will be useless. I think that would be a shame.

I don't think the designers would produce an ID that would require obsoleting all previous runner IDs. That would be a disaster for the game. I think it's much more likely that you're mis-judging the card.

Both seem like they could offer some amazing new deck ideas, but I would be more inclined to play as the Collective.

Fisk seems more fun, because his ability is all about the interaction between runner and corp. He would definitely need strong support cards. Those support cards would be pretty cool though, I think, if they triggered off Corp draw.

Fisk could have say, an 11 cost, 5 influence console that says "+1 MU, Whenever the Corp draws a card from R&D, you may draw a card from your stack. You may not draw cards during your own turn." Something like that would radically alter the card drawing advantage of the corp and make Fisk a very, very potent ID.

Anyway, I'll be voting Fisk for that reason, but mostly because the rules interpretation havoc that The Collective has already unleashed in the hypothetical discussion of its effects is something I'd rather not see in actual play. At the very least the wording on the card needs to be clearer.

Also, having an answer to fast advance other than Mill and R&D Lock would be good. Anarch is good at fighting fast advance with card Milling, and Shaper is great at R&D lock, so it adds balance to improve Criminal's ability to fight fast advance through HQ.

I haven't PLAYTESTED them, but from what I can tell - The Collective will suck. It will make up for incredibly dull decks and it might border OP. I mean Katman is already the most boring deck to play ever. Imagine this, but in Larger numbers and with more passive play ... it would just be horrid.

Look at the Plugged-in Tour stats. In ALL of the first 4 cities, more than 50% of the runners were Shaper ... Do we want that do jump to 75-80%? Hell no ...


The other card seems to me like it will shine in a time. Sadly, as a Criminal, I don't see him on one par with Andromeda and Gabe.

I believe a problem we are having in the Meta is not enough new and interesting things to do with Criminal. Fisk ultimately plays very much like Gabe, but with less Economic advantages, making him even more situational. I can see how certain cards could uplift him, but I don't think he brings enough to the table with an ability that might be useful only a few times per game, if at all, and will sometimes hurt you to use.

I look forward to trying a deck with The Collective, they seem much more interesting to build decks for. They have no specific strategy ingrained except to try to concentrate more on one type of thing per turn, but not necessarily exclusively. That can be running, that can be a card that uses an action, that can be installing things, that can be events that start a run mixed with events that do not, they have many choices. Like The Professor, The Collective is a very different take on how to build a deck focusing on flexibility and I like that.

I want Criminal to have something that is similarly game-changing, like maybe a runner that starts the Corp with 1 bad pub, or something way out there that require a lower influence limit or higher deck size to compensate. Fisk is neat, and a solid ID, but we already have an ID that focuses on HQ attack in Gabe. Anarch have had an interesting ID with Noise from the core set, his ability fundamentally changes the way the game plays out. Shapers got this with The Professor and Kit. Criminal needs it as well as some variety beyond Gabe & Andromeda, but Fisk doesn't deliver it. I'd rather see the Collective come out and have FFG come up with something else interesting for Criminal.

Already voted for The Collective, I will be sad if Fisk wins because he will probably take the place of a potentially more interesting Criminal ID later down the line. Adding The Collective now necessitates adding diversity to the other Factions to catch up, while adding a very interesting ID right now.

EDIT: Having seen the spoiler now for Savoir-Faire, whatever "dominance" Shapers enjoy in the current Meta will soon deteriorate, as another faction will have a native, reusable, on the fly method of installing ice breakers. Criminal doesn't need Fisk, who is essentially a slightly different version of Andromeda or Gabe, it needs its own version of Noise or Kit or the Professor (or the Collective) that fundamentally alters the way the match will play out even though you're still playing the same game.

I believe a problem we are having in the Meta is not enough new and interesting things to do with Criminal. Fisk ultimately plays very much like Gabe, but with less Economic advantages, making him even more situational. I can see how certain cards could uplift him, but I don't think he brings enough to the table with an ability that might be useful only a few times per game, if at all, and will sometimes hurt you to use.

I look forward to trying a deck with The Collective, they seem much more interesting to build decks for. They have no specific strategy ingrained except to try to concentrate more on one type of thing per turn, but not necessarily exclusively. That can be running, that can be a card that uses an action, that can be installing things, that can be events that start a run mixed with events that do not, they have many choices. Like The Professor, The Collective is a very different take on how to build a deck focusing on flexibility and I like that.

I want Criminal to have something that is similarly game-changing, like maybe a runner that starts the Corp with 1 bad pub, or something way out there that require a lower influence limit or higher deck size to compensate. Fisk is neat, and a solid ID, but we already have an ID that focuses on HQ attack in Gabe. Anarch have had an interesting ID with Noise from the core set, his ability fundamentally changes the way the game plays out. Shapers got this with The Professor and Kit. Criminal needs it as well as some variety beyond Gabe & Andromeda, but Fisk doesn't deliver it. I'd rather see the Collective come out and have FFG come up with something else interesting for Criminal.

Already voted for The Collective, I will be sad if Fisk wins because he will probably take the place of a potentially more interesting Criminal ID later down the line. Adding The Collective now necessitates adding diversity to the other Factions to catch up, while adding a very interesting ID right now.

EDIT: Having seen the spoiler now for Savoir-Faire, whatever "dominance" Shapers enjoy in the current Meta will soon deteriorate, as another faction will have a native, reusable, on the fly method of installing ice breakers. Criminal doesn't need Fisk, who is essentially a slightly different version of Andromeda or Gabe, it needs its own version of Noise or Kit or the Professor (or the Collective) that fundamentally alters the way the match will play out even though you're still playing the same game.

The biggest problem with the collective though is that it has a very strong potential to just break the game. Can you imagine getting a proffesional contacts out on turn 1 with the collective? The runner is basically unstoppable. Same thing will go for Magnum Opus and any other click for benefit cards that are out there right now or will come out in the future. This means that the only way to balance the game would be to make the Corp much stronger. which of course leads to every other runner id we have right now will be obsolete. I don't want that. Besides that, deckbuilding with the collective just won't be that fun. Low influence, large deck size just means that everyone is going to put in the same main cards in there (click for economy cards, tutoring cards, and deck thinning cards) and the 1-2 different cards that the decks are going to have are going to have a much smaller influence on how your deck actually plays since you will draw those different cards much less.

Fisk on the other hand may seem boring now but remember he isn't coming out for at least another 6 month (or maybe longer) That means that by the time he comes out there will be plenty of cards that support him and make him fun to play with. Fisk can actually have some awesome cards designed directly for him since it 's a very unique ability to be able to control what the corp has in their HQ. Fisk actually plays very different from all the other criminals. Andy for obvious reasons, and Gabe because FIsk running on HQ would be for different reasons that Gabe runs on HQ (purely econ).

I'm not sure what Savoir-Faire has to do with anything. SMC is better because it lets you tutor for the program you want not just the one you have in HQ. And I wouldn't say that right now face checking ice for the criminal is that much of a problem. I know it's not for me.

Your argument about the time until release also holds for the collective - I'm sure there'll be plenty of meta-shifts and interesting new strategies (and counters) by the time they're released.

When I hear 'all collective decks will be the same' all I'm really hearing is 'I can't think of any other way to play the collective'.

I think Fisk is a better choice for the new ID.

Each ID produces, or is supposed to produce, an interesting and unique style of gameplay to enhance a deck. Even if you use the same deck, changing the ID from Gabe to Andromeda will produce a different playstyle, as will changing from Noize to Whizzard, etc.

The Collective strongly rewards a deckbuild that focuses on repeat actions. The bonus click is far too tempting. Essentially, the runner will perform 3 different actions in their turn (3 click of one, 1 of another, and 1 more from the bonus click). While this could potentially hamper versatility, the benefits of the bonus click cannot be overstated. This rewards a long game style of runner, offsetting the disadvantage of the long game by giving the runner an extra turn every 4 turns. This speeds up the runner considerably.

Fisk turns that around. By forcing the corp to hold too many cards, potentially too many agendas, the corp feels pressure to get everything out as fast as possible. For corp decks based on speed, this isn't seemingly as large an issue. However, pushing cards into HQ before the corp is ready, or even has the clicks, to deal with it is a significant psychological tactic. More pressure on the corp, by kicking up the corp's tempo, is speeding the game up by another means.

The Collective speeds up a slow runner, while Fisk seeks to pressure the corp. One is, as someone noted earlier, a more solitare approach (Collective), while the other is a stronger corp/runner interaction (Fisk). Personally, I prefer the interaction.

Also, there are a lot of Shaper ID's out, currently. They are all interesting, and each provides a different approach. I would like to see more variety in the other factions.

EDIT: Better grammar. Yes, I am that picky.

Granted... by the time the winning identity is rolled out, in let's say 2015, the meta will have completely shifted.

For now, I've made both decks to play with so far:

Fisk with Nerve Agents, Vamps, Siphons, and Demo Runs. He just wrecks the corp.

Collective with Pro Contacts, Mag Op, and heavy R&D lock.

Collective's deck size is a really limiting factor, but holy efficiency once it gets running! Fisk is really solid, and makes a really crappy deck for the corp player to face. Both are solid.

Now people are saying Shapers are the most powerful right now... they are wrong. Shapers have the most cards and are the most popular; Criminals win the most tournaments. Criminals are super powerful as it is; they don't need any more major favors. I say let the Shapers better shape the meta for a while.

FYI, for the sake of full disclosure, I play primarily Criminal in tournaments, and Exile is my favorite Shaper ID for casual play... so yeah, I can tell you first hand, the Collective is not boring or OP.