How does this interaction work?

When does Vader as crew activate? (I am guessing after gunner, because of the immediately on gunner)

Do we get to activate Vader twice?

If so - and both activations happen after the gunner attack, and we target two different ships (first attack and gunner) - does Vader apply once to each ship?

May as well add Cluster Missiles to the bon fire

The word "immediately" prevents this. If it weren't there, I would say "Sure, why not – but be sure to take your 4 damage." Since it is there, though, I think it has to be:

1. attack and miss

2. gunner IMMEDIATELY activates a new primary weapon attack (although not necessarily at the same target)

3. after this second attack Vader can be used on the same target

4. no further attacks allowed

If Gunner is obligatory, and has priority because of the "immediately" wording, then we wouldn't be able to follow through on the FAQ ruling for Cluster Missiles since the second Cluster Attack is not worded as "immediately". So that is at least one instance where "immediately" does not have priority over a non-immediate action.

It would be nice if "immediately" were a keyword that gave us consistently clear instruction for priority, but it looks to me like it might just be a redundant adverb. Sloppy grammar and all that.

Cluster also doesn't use the same structure. It doesn't even say "after." Also Gunner is optional.

Gunner is optional? That is not what it says on the card.

So, we have a mess if "immediately" really is a requirement and gives that effect priority over all other effects with the same trigger.

Luke is formatted the same way. In the case of Cluster Missiles (of course, since they seem to be at the heart of SO many issues) if you were to miss with the first attack, and the word "immediately" on Gunner actually functioned as some sort of priority that required you to perform Gunner before ANY other action lacking the "immediately" tag, then you would never get a second missile attack because you would be required to immediately take the Gunner follow up rather than the second Cluster Missile attack.

I am not really trying to throw a wrench in the works, but I am wary of reading too much into the use of particular "key words" and terms, since FFG has not been in any way consistent about defining and using them.

So I think it is possible, indeed likely, that Vader would get to Force Choke the snot out of people twice; once for the first attack and once for the Gunner attack. But of course I can't prove it (though I have searched my feelings and know it to be true). j/k

So there may be a precedent that you can treat (non negative) abilities as optional. If you choose to do gunner, it has to act first? Is that what immediately is doing?

Is it clear from the FAQ that if you forgo the gunner for cluster attack 2, and hit, you don't get to do your gunner from the first missed attack after?

If so, would that set a precedent that if you choose to trigger vader first, you lose the gunner attack, and vice versa?

If Gunner is obligatory, and has priority because of the "immediately" wording, then we wouldn't be able to follow through on the FAQ ruling for Cluster Missiles since the second Cluster Attack is not worded as "immediately". So that is at least one instance where "immediately" does not have priority over a non-immediate action.

It would be nice if "immediately" were a keyword that gave us consistently clear instruction for priority, but it looks to me like it might just be a redundant adverb. Sloppy grammar and all that.

Gunner and Luke were errata'ed to add 'may' and make them optional. First page of the FAQ.

VorpalSword posed this over on BGG a while back. Here was my response, which I still think is both weird and correct:

- First attack misses
-- Trigger Vader(1) and Gunner
--- Resolve Gunner (Immediately goes first)
--- Trigger Vader(2)
--- Resolve Vader(Either) - suffer damage, inflict critical
---- Ship reaches zero hull, triggers destruction
---- Ship is immediately removed
--- Resolve Vader(Other). Ship is not in play so cannot suffer damage; effect fizzles.

It's a seriously messed up bit of timing. I think Vader with Gunner would generally go like this:

1. Attack
2. Vader and Gunner Trigger
3. Perform Gunner
4. Vader Triggers
5. Perform Vader
6. Perform Vader

On the good side, I think you commit to use the ability (and hence the damage) when it resolves, so at least you don't have to eat the damage in #2 only to see the Gunner blow the target away.

So there may be a precedent that you can treat (non negative) abilities as optional.

Whether or not an ability is optional is clearly defined in the rulebook. No precedent is required.

Unless a card ability uses the word “may” or has the “action :” or “attack :” headers, then the ability is mandatory and must be followed. (page 19)

Is that what immediately is doing?

No idea. The rulebook doesn't say so.

If so, would that set a precedent that if you choose to trigger vader first, you lose the gunner attack, and vice versa?

I fail to see anything which prevents you from using both after an attack. "Immediately" may or may not set the order but you can use both.

Vader is not an attack and can be used after gunner.

Can you use Vader after your initial attack and after gunner for a total of four damage and two critical damage cards? That depends on "immediately". If you use Vader prior to gunner you can use him after gunner as well. If you use gunner first then Vader takes effect once only.

With cluster missiles and gunner you may get to use Vader three times.

Well - there's that.

At least the Cluster missile + gunner + vader = purely theoretical, I don't think anything can take that loadout at the moment... maybe when we get the assault gunboat ...

So are we now saying we can you an ability/upgrade multiple times in the same phase?

So are we now saying we can you an ability/upgrade multiple times in the same phase?

I don't think anyone ever said you couldn't use an ability/upgrade multiple times in the same phase.

The limit that is generally proposed (if not always accepted, as the recent Opportunist debate shows) is that you can only use an ability once per triggering event. If you have two triggering events, even if they're the same and in close proximity, the ability would activate for each.

Yorr may be the best example I can think of for this off the top of my head. His ability triggers when a friendly ship gets a stress. Say you have a pilot with Daredevil, who declares a red maneuver. Complete the K-turn, would get stress, Yorr's ability triggers to take that stress. Then the pilot used Daredevil, which would give another stress, which would activate Yorr's ability again, and he could take that stress as well.

Different events each trigger the ability.

Howlrunner is another example where an ability triggers several times during one round. Same for Dark Curse or Luke (pilot not crew). Marksmanship and Han trigger during each attack...

One exception are actions: You cannot perform any specific action more than once per round.

KO brings up a good point. There may be a difference between what I'd expect the word "immediately" to mean, and what it actually means. The Cluster Missiles example complicates things, but by now I've learned to treat Cluster Missiles as an exception and not the rule, so to speak. Even the wording of CM is different than that seen anywhere else: it says "perform this attack twice," not "then perform this attack again," or anything suggesting timing. You could deduce a number of timing scenarios from that phrasing, and it's hard to say that most of them are wrong. This one specific FAQ answer has caused an awful lot of problems, as it directly contradicts what a card says, which already has overruled the core rules:

I don't honestly know that you can do better than house ruling this situation right now.

Current FAQ says no, not yes. That was changed a short time after release. Re-download the file.

Edit: Link added.

KO brings up a good point. There may be a difference between what I'd expect the word "immediately" to mean, and what it actually means. The Cluster Missiles example complicates things, but by now I've learned to treat Cluster Missiles as an exception and not the rule, so to speak. Even the wording of CM is different than that seen anywhere else: it says "perform this attack twice," not "then perform this attack again," or anything suggesting timing. You could deduce a number of timing scenarios from that phrasing, and it's hard to say that most of them are wrong. This one specific FAQ answer has caused an awful lot of problems, as it directly contradicts what a card says, which already has overruled the core rules:

Q: [/size] If a ship using Cluster Missiles misses with the first attack and then triggers Gunner/Luke Skywalker, can it still perform the remaining attack granted by Cluster Missiles? [/size]

A: [/size] Yes. [/size]

I don't honestly know that you can do better than house ruling this situation right now.

That FAQ answer was changed to "NO". You are quoting an outdated answer.

Jim

Thaaaaaat explains why I was so confused. I could have sworn it said no.

Thanks guys, I guess I missed the update to the FAQ released only a week after the previous update to the FAQ (grrrrrr). But at least they cleaned up that particular can of worms.

So, unless there's another existing contradiction to the term "immediately," I think this brings me back to my initial interpretation. Gunner is the most recent action and therefore the one that can trigger Vader. The original attack is lost somewhere in the fog of time.

However, I can see Buhallin's interpretation as being just as valid. Basically seems like a coin flip to me as far as what was intended.

So, unless there's another existing contradiction to the term "immediately," I think this brings me back to my initial interpretation. Gunner is the most recent action and therefore the one that can trigger Vader. The original attack is lost somewhere in the fog of time.

Nothing stops you from triggering Vader at the same time as Gunner, though - they both trigger at the same time. We expect that Gunner will resolve first, but nothing in that preemption stops Vader from resolving. It really doesn't seem like it should be any different from any other situation where two abilities have the same trigger.

We don't actually know what "immediately" means, of course, but I think treating it as inherently cancelling other effects (or stopping them from triggering in the first place) is a pretty major step.

And the reason Gunner stops the second cluster missile attack, is that it expressly forbids further attacks. Vader not being an attack is not subject to that.

Like I said, not necessarily disagreeing with you guys, but I think it may have been intended to work the other way. Or rather, I think Gunner may have been intended to basically pre-empt and end all other actions, precisely so the possibility of creating giant doom combos is restricted.

Well pick your words carefully - "actions" are a whole other thing in the game so it's easy to cause confusion.
I don't know - Gunner says you may make no further attacks this round but doesn't specify anything else it restricts you from doing.

Like I said, not necessarily disagreeing with you guys, but I think it may have been intended to work the other way. Or rather, I think Gunner may have been intended to basically pre-empt and end all other actions, precisely so the possibility of creating giant doom combos is restricted.

That is why Dutch's pilot ability is not an action. It does not have the action header and does not say free action or action in its use, so it is an ability in function.

I agree with the Gunner immediately kicks in, after step 7 of the attack, to trigger a new attack, what the FAQ will have to address is if it is enough to cancel that first attack as a trigger for Vader or not. I can see Vader being triggered, but having to resolve after the second attack from Gunner, which would trigger Vader for a second attempt, and make for a very convoluted road map of rules to follow, but at least I can picture a road map here; Cluster missiles and Vader would be like reading a Montreal road map trying to find "rue Eglise" (Church street)- there are 17 of them ( and I really wish that was a joke).

Yes, sorry, "action" was a poor choice of words. "Activity" is maybe closer to what I meant. ****, FFG has inflicted me with their linguistical woes!