Well there's nothing to complain about is there? Marines are being discussed.

Hellebore

On a separate note (perhaps?), what would happen if a Apothecary recovered the gene seed from a Chaos Space Marine? Seems a pretty radical idea, but plausible in the confines of what Radical Inquisitors might try.

Perhaps these "neophytes" are orphaned children of heretics condemned by the Inquisition and scurried away to be raised by the Inquisition for the express reason of being receiving "purified" tainted gene-seeds?

Pretty heretical, but might make a fun adventure against tech-heresy and blasphemy.

Some sort of double remittance of sin, not only do these new space marines/neophytes serve to seek atonement for their parents sins, but also for the sins of the marine who previous carried the geneseed the neophyte has or is about to recieve.

These "neophytes" of the Ordo Martyr Chapter of Space Marines would also be outfitted with instant-death safe guards, like penal legionaires.

So they never become "True" Space Marines, but the progeny of their Gene Seed may, if and only if they redeem themselves, properly, which is to more or less go all troll slayer into the afterlife.

So they dont recieve all the implants, just the general ones a scout/black templar neophyte would have.

So I suppose these chaps shouldnt be a 100% available origin/career/background package/alternate rank for eveyone, but maybe a compaing specific role, or an individual every so often could play one.

So to keep them slightly nerfed, they dont get the black carapace (at least, not always and very rarely if at all) so they dont necessarily have power armour) But most of the lesser available implants seem reasonable., maybe even bolters.

I also wouldnt give them too many super attributes, maybe slightly stronger to start then others, maybe slightly tougher and a bonus wound or so, but in general, on par with typical feral world meets mind cleansed meets schola progenium origin.

So now Im not sure if I want to use this as a template to create a decent, new, Unearthed Apocrypha article, or turn it into an adventure scheme.

Another quick question.

When was the last founding?

Ok two questions.

Just now reading the Horus Rising novel, so maybe Im clueless. Did every space marine in the traitor legions turn? Did some go "hey, guys, uhmm.... wait...what?" and side with the loyal marines? Is it possible they still have gene-seed descendents or a later chapter founding?

Peacekeeper_b said:

No, not all of them turned. Most of the loyalist elements were purged during the Istvaan massacre though. A few of them escaped on the Eisenstein and set course for Terra to warn the Emperor about Horus betrayal. Me memory is a bit fuzzy, but wasn't it implied that some of these men were among the founding members of the Inquisition?

The IoM still have geneseed from the legions who turned, but I think they would be very reluctant to use it. All chapters founded after the Heresy have come from loyalist stock, and over half of them have been founded with Ultramarine geneseed. But it would be possible in theory, after all 10 millennia is a very long time.

Demo said:

There were a few Death Guard and a Luna Wolf, he had his armor repainted from the Sons of Horus scheme, that survived the Eisenstein. They did imply that they may have something to do with the Inquisition.

If you want to go with limited gene seed implants as advances I would probably go with 500 point minimum costs and have them on an Alt level with very limited other options. That way it will be a hit to get the gene seed and give some balance to the class.

These need more thought put behind them:

As far as home world I would go with an option to choose a stat increase. Pick either a + to S, T, or W.

Basic Skills: Intimidate, Survival, tracking

Skills: Awareness, Dodge, Silent Move

For the Alternate career

Skills that should probably be available in the Alt levels: Scholastic Lore: Astartes, Common Lore: Imperium, Ciphers: War Cant, Common Lore: War, Scholastic Lore: Tactica Imperialis, Secret Tongue: Legion

Demo said:

Which novels would these events be covered in?

Really, so those from traitor legions who stayed loyal to the Emperor became the founders of the Inquisition. HMMMM that is helpful.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Mmmm I think 500 is a bit steep. I really dont think it is that unbalancing, basing stats off the Space Marine fan supplement by The Patriot and Darthbane.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Why silent move and track? Why Survival?

ItsUncertainWho said:

These would make sense for standard marines, but these wouldnt be standard marines.

So can a apothecary extract the gene seed from a CSM?

So can a apothecary extract the gene seed from a CSM?

That depends. The Thousand Sons, for example, had all their non-psychic members turned into incorporeal automata by the rubric of Ahriman, so their progenitor glands turned into ash along with the rest of their physical bodies.

Marines of the other traitor legions would still have them, unless they have already been removed to make new CSM's. The legions who still have some semblance of their pre-heresy organisation probably retain at least a limited ability to create new marines, or attrition would have rendered them irrelevant by now. So yes, IMHO it would be possible. It would almost certainly be tainted by the warp (or at least considered to be tainted by IoM) though.

My two cents.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Well, You could go 300 - 500 depending on what the gland does.

Track, Survival, and Silent Move all fit as ideal skills for any SM, especially a covert legion. Most of the fluff I have read seems to portray all the marines being recruited from the harshest of environments which tend to breed tough and skilled individuals. Be it a death world or lower hive, marines seem to have been chosen on their ability to survive on their own. Sneaking, scavenging and hunting are probably the first skills they would develop.

As for the other skills, I would say if they are not given as a starting package they should be included in the Alt levels as options. Lore, ciphers, language and more intellectual skills would be of more use to a covert legion. Know your enemy, know yourself. Fight smarter, not harder.

Any skills could be determined by the individual legion. They all look for slightly different traits.

Jaded would also be a possibility as starting trait.

I think it was at the end of Flight of the Eisenstein that they hinted at the Inquisition.

2 of the three founders were SMs, the third was a Sister of Silence (a sort of psyker sister of battle)

sorry done nit picking

Dagda

Dagda said:

That may or may not be true as there are several versions of the birth of the =][= floating about. It all depends on what cannon you subscribe to.

The one that involves a SoS and marines, from what I understand, actually involves 8 individuals but only 3 were ever named. They come from the novel,The Flight of the Eisenstein iirc.

The other main story of the =][='s birth comes from the Inquisitor game and the Thorian Sourcebook. In it, there are only 4 individuals involved in the birth of the =][= which occurs several hundred years or so after the Emperor's entombment on the throne. What they were is not really mentioned. They are men and women of great political power who know of a way to awaken the Emperor but argue as to whether they should or not. Two decide he should be awoken, two say he shouldn't be. Those who want him to awaken flee Terra while those who feel he should remain on the throne make themselves the first Inquisitors and begin looking for like mined individuals to combat the resorectionists. After a few hundred years of mucking about, the =][= has forgotten it's original purpose of combating the resorectionsists and soon they find themselves sided with them against chaos. The resorectionists are accepted into the still young inquisitorial fold and slowly the =][= begins to take the shape it exists in today.

One way to incorporate these inquisitorial neophytes in the big =][= is to have them be descendants of the orginal Space Marine Traitor Legion Loyalist who became the first inquisitors. Using their untainted progenitor glands, the Inquistition could have long planned to ressurect these mighty legions in the name of the emperor.

However, this whole process is slowed by the fact that the Inquisition itself is divided on what geneseeds should be used. The radicals want to use all the Imperium has in stockpile, many preserved since before the Horus Heresy, while the puritans want only those geneseeds which have withstood the call of Chaos. The puritans ultimately win out and begin to create these new SM as agents of the Inquisition. Behind the scene, multiple radicals create there own SM marines using the untested glands.

In game this deference would manifest in two catogories for the so called ressurected SMs. The tested seeds would grant their user a moderate willpower bonus, if a bit lackluster in other fields compared the alternative. The untested progenitor would give the neophyte powerful abilities, a strong correspondence to the ancient marines of old. These scouts might be prone to many more weakness than the tested stuff including mutation, weakness to the warp, and even visions of dark places their kind in the eye of terror stride. It'd be very interesting to see where the neophytes loyaltys fell with the acolytes confront real Chaos Marines.

Some of this discussion brings to mind an idea I had for a home brew SM chapter a few years back:

The Orphans

Prior to the Horus heresy the Space Marine Legions were vast organizations with thousands upons thousands of marines in each. Therefore it seemed resonable to me that from among the nine legions that followed Horus there would have been at least a few thousand (a few here, a few there) who individually remained loyal to the Emperor, did not turn to chaos, and fought on the side of the loyalists against their brethren.

The idea behind the Orphans was that approx. 1500 or so of these individuals (or at least their geneseed and knowledge of their identity) had survived the heresy, and during the third founding or so came together and formed a new chapter. Each of the original brothers would have carried the deep shame of their legions betrayal as well as pride in their own loyalty and fidelity to the Emperor, but also be scarred by the choice thay had to make between loyalty to their legion/primarch and loyalty to the Emperor/Humanity (not doubt in their choice, but trauma of having had to recognize that their brothers had fallen from the true path). In the intervening 10 milennia all of the orignal brothers have died, but their pure pre-chaos geneseed has been passed on.

Geneseed of the Orphans is passed on lineally with each brother able to trace his geneseed's history to one of the original Orphans. Further when each new brother is inducted into the orphans as a full battle brother, he is given the power armor of his predecessor (this armor having been so often repaired that after 10,000 years not individual piece is the same as it started with, but the "suit of armor" is the contines) and adopts the name of the original Orphan who provided his geneseed (and to whom his armor traces its history). In the case of lost or destroyed power armor, a new suit is dedicated to that name/geenseed line. The Orphans still have more than a thousand geneseed lines from their founders (and do their best to preserve backup sources of a given linse should the current brother bearing the name be lost) , but as brothers are lost in battle the number of true lines dwindles. As such the Orphans are even more fanatical than the Grey Knights about recovering the geneseed of their fallen brothers (to such a degree that their apothacaries are often also their chaplains). As there are (at the end of M40) more geneseed lines/founders than their are active brothers, they are given to new raised brothers in a cycle (the most recent to fall have their history/name/geneseed added to the bottom of the list from which lines will be chose for new brothers)

Each brother of the Orphans can recite the history, deeds and lineage of the name he bears through each brother who has held it back to the original Orphans who fought against their own legions in the Horus Heresy.

The Armor of the Orphans is painted in a quarterly pattern. The right upper quadrant and left lower quadrant bear the legion colors of the brother's namesake, and the right shoulder shows the namesake's legion badge, marked across w/ a horizonal mourning band (usually black, but sometimes another color of mourning based on the culture in which that legion had its roots). The left upper quadrant and right lower quadrant are in the heraldry of the Orphans (Couldn't settle on whether gold or white would be the most appropriate color to represent absolute loyalty to the Emperor) and the Orphans Chapter badge is displayed on the left shoulder. For the Orphans Chapter badge I was trying to come up with heraldry that represented the Emperor himself to display that their loyalty was to Him alone rather than their fallen primarchs. (The best I'd come up with was the single headed aquila w/ crossed lightning bolts held in its claws)

I had intended to put together an Orphans army for TT as a codex chapter except for combining their chaplains and their apothecaries (basically give chaplains narthecium/reductor) but since I could never settle on final heraldry and other projects (both in gaming and RL) became more urgent, the idea was kind of put on the shelf.

Thanks for reminding me of it.