Charge Action and Whirlwind of Death

By Malbojia, in Only War Rules Questions

So, out of nowhere my group is questioning my ability to use the Whirlwind of Death talent.

I was using a charge attack into a group of enemies (wasn't the first time), and this time the GM questions wether I can actually hit multiple targets during a charge attack, because he remembers some rule about not being able to use multiple attack skills during a charge.

After reading the talent again, they said I needed to have the ability to attack multiple targets before I can use Whirlwind of Death, citing what I bolded.

WHIRLWIND OF DEATH
Tier: 2
Prerequisite: Weapon Skill 40
Aptitudes: Weapon Skill, Finesse

"When facing massed opponents in combat, the character
becomes a whirlwind of death, moving, hacking, gutting, and
beheading with ceaseless fury. When attacking more than one
foe in close combat
, the character may make one melee attack
for each foe he is facing, up to a maximum equal to his Weapon
Skill Bonus. Each additional attack beyond the first counts
as a Free Action, but cannot be combined with any other
Talents or abilities which would grant extra attacks or hits
(i.e. Lightning Attack, Furious Charge, etc.). The character
may choose in which order he attacks his opponents."

Questions:

Do I need a multi attack skill like two weapon wielder? Or does Whirlwind of Death exist in a vacume?

Also, can it be used with a charge attack?

edit: added pre-req/name/aptitude to the Talent listing

Edited by Malbojia

I don't have my books with me but I would say:

1- If you are in hand to hand with 2 or more foes you can make a standard attack against each of them. If the talent doesn't have any prerequisites, then it doesn't need to be combined with anything else.

2- Judging that it says the extra attacks can't be combined with a Furious Charge, I'd say that it can be used with a charge action.

It seems to be a powerful talent. Then again how often does a guardsman get into combat with multiple foes.

Stand alone. There is no specific talent to allow you 'to attack multiple foes' - aside, of course, from Whirlwind of Death . You're only making standard attacks, so none is needed.

The effect is that you make a standard attack (half action) against one opponent. You may then - as a free action - attack another foe, then another, then another, until you have made a standard attack against each foe. You may not double-tap any one target, and can't cheat by using any other talents which might allow you to.

The only part which counts for actions is a half action (the first attack) so you can indeed do it after charging. However, it's nigh impossible to charge and be in combat with two opponents unless charging into a shoulder-to-shoulder mass of orks (which I believe is referred to as 'a bloody stupid plan'); generally you'll have to settle for charging opponent A then wait for opponent B to countercharge into you.

The 'cant use multiple attack skills during a charge' was never a specific restriction that I'm aware of; but in previous versions like Dark Heresy, Swift Attack, Lighting Attack, and Two-Weapon Wielder were full actions - hence the Charge action specifically said you got a standard attack.

In Black Crusade and Only War, the Charge was reduced to a half action, and all the attack actions were made half actions - so as far as I know you can use whatever you like.

Charge is a full action that allows you an attack at +20ws. There's nothing to stop you using Whirlwind of Death as a charge is neither a Talent or Ability, it is an action. However. I wouldn't allow your other attacks to make use of the charge bonus as your movement comes to an abrupt end hitting the first target, but thats just me.

Thanks a lot! That helped. :)

As I'm reading it, by RAW, there is nothing that prevents you from using the +20 on the first attack, and then swapping to standard attacks for the rest (with +10), the only restriction is that you can't use any attack that causes more the one hit. You can, technically, use disarm, knock down, standard attack and stun in any combination you'd like.

Charge on the first strike works because every condition for charge has been fulfilled, after the charge has been resolved any other targets (maximum WS bonus) within reach are subject to any one attack-type that does not allow more then one hit.

I'd house-rule against it, but that's how it's worded.

The way I read it, you need to attack at least two opponents in melee, in order to trigger Whirlwind of Death, which will make the second attack and all subsequent attacks (made possible with Whirlwind of Death) into Free actions.

Charge, being a Full Action, I don't see how you could combine it in any way with Whirlwind of Death, unless you can think of some way to make Charge affect multiple opponents or somehow get some other extra attack outside of the Full Action.

I can find no way for this to work with Charge, regrettably, unless you can somehow turn Charge into a Half-Action. As far as I know, Charge only ever attacks a single opponent and is always a Full Action.

Edit: This is by RAW, of course. I don't want to speculate too much on RAI, but I think that the way it's written, it's a very odd functionality, and could have done with an example of how exactly this was meant to be applied.

Currently, the only way I see to make use of Whirlwind of Death, is by wielding two melee weapons, having Two-Weapon Wielder, making any kind of Half-Action Attack Action (Standard Attack, Knock Down, Lightning Attack, or Swift Attack) against one opponents, and then making another Half-Action Attack Action (since you only have 1 Half-Action left) that does not cause multiple attacks (standard Attack, Knock Down).

At this point, all attacks other than the first becomes Free Actions, and you are allowed to make attacks against anyone you can reach. This is hilariously useful if you have a melee weapon with reach (Mono-Grox Whip, anyone?), but more importantly, it is still only restricted from being used with those Combat Actions that grants extra attacks. What does this mean?

It means that you can do All-Out Attacks at everyone, since Whirlwind of Death just turned all the attacks into Free Actions, and All-Out Attack in no way grants you extra attacks. Or, you can try to Stun every last one of them. Technically, hilariously, there's not even anything stopping you from attempting to Grapple. Every. One.

I think this entire thing is in dire need of some Errata.

Interestingly, and adding to the confusion, Furious Charge is mentioned as one of the attacks that specifically prohibited, but Furious Charge does not exist elsewhere in Only War (or at least it didn't show up in a search). But (!), Charge itself does not grant extra attacks, and it is an Attack, and it is categorized as Melee. Due to the wording, you are allowed to attack anyone you are facing . This, I believe, is intended to mean anyone that you are engaged in melee with, or otherwise can reach with your weapon, but that's not what it says . You could be facing a whole lot of bad people, and you could charge from one of them to the other.

As yet another oddity, after all of this, since everything past the first attack is considered a Free action, you are left with another Half-Action. Feel free to use that for Guarded Action or a Feint in preparation for the next round.

Also, I noticed yet another oddity. It doesn't specifically say that you need to attack separate opponents. Just that you get a free attack for each opponent you are facing. Ponder that for a moment and what it can do when it turns your All-Out-Attack into a Free Action on a per-opponent basis.

This entire talent needs to be rewritten and reworded. Dear lord.

Edited by Fgdsfg

Stand alone. There is no specific talent to allow you 'to attack multiple foes' - aside, of course, from Whirlwind of Death . You're only making standard attacks, so none is needed.

The effect is that you make a standard attack (half action) against one opponent. You may then - as a free action - attack another foe, then another, then another, until you have made a standard attack against each foe. You may not double-tap any one target, and can't cheat by using any other talents which might allow you to.

The only part which counts for actions is a half action (the first attack) so you can indeed do it after charging. However, it's nigh impossible to charge and be in combat with two opponents unless charging into a shoulder-to-shoulder mass of orks (which I believe is referred to as 'a bloody stupid plan'); generally you'll have to settle for charging opponent A then wait for opponent B to countercharge into you.

The 'cant use multiple attack skills during a charge' was never a specific restriction that I'm aware of; but in previous versions like Dark Heresy, Swift Attack, Lighting Attack, and Two-Weapon Wielder were full actions - hence the Charge action specifically said you got a standard attack.

In Black Crusade and Only War, the Charge was reduced to a half action, and all the attack actions were made half actions - so as far as I know you can use whatever you like.

I have no idea where you're getting most of this from. There is at least one specific Talent that allows you to attack multiple foes, that one being Two-Weapon Wielder. You can definitely 'cheat' and "double-tap" by how the talent is worded, and it nowhere specifies that the attacks needs to be Standard Attacks, it only stipulates that you are not allowed to use combat actions that increases the number of blows.

It also specifically says that you need to attack more than one foe in close combat, which would disqualify Charge, if for no other reason than Charge being a Full Action and thus unable to ever be combined with multiple attacks (on multiple opponents) in melee.

Which brings me to the greatest questionmark with your post. You say that Charge was reduced to a Half-Action in Black Crusade and Only War. I'm staring right at the Combat Actions right now, and it clearly lists Charge as a Full-Action. So I took the time to check Black Crusade, because it just didn't make sense to me that Charge would ever be a Half-Action, given the narrative context of rounds and what they represent, and the sheer distance you can move with a Charge.

Black Crusade also lists it as a Full-Action.

And far from all Attack Actions are Half-Actions. Stun and All-Out-Attack are still very much Full Actions, just like Charge. Are we reading the same rulebook? Because there's no end to how much your post is confusing me.

Edit: Mind you, what you describe relating to Whirlwind of Death sounds about right when it comes to how I'd expect the rule to be meant to work; I do believe that it was intended to only require you to make one attack, and as long as there are other enemies within reach, trigger Whirlwind of Death, allowing you to make one Half-Action Attack which does not grant extra blows against each opponent within reach, as Free Actions.

But that's not what it says , and the whole bit about all Attack Actions being Half-Actions, including Charge, is just downright weird .

Edited by Fgdsfg

Question: Why would the talent specifically list "Furious Charge" (a talent that gives an extra attack on a charge) as something they don't want you combining it with, if the talent was not able to be used with a normal charge attack in the first place?

I have no idea where you're getting most of this from. There is at least one specific Talent that allows you to attack multiple foes, that one being Two-Weapon Wielder. You can definitely 'cheat' and "double-tap" by how the talent is worded, and it nowhere specifies that the attacks needs to be Standard Attacks, it only stipulates that you are not allowed to use combat actions that increases the number of blows.

It also specifically says that you need to attack more than one foe in close combat, which would disqualify Charge, if for no other reason than Charge being a Full Action and thus unable to ever be combined with multiple attacks (on multiple opponents) in melee.

Which brings me to the greatest questionmark with your post. You say that Charge was reduced to a Half-Action in Black Crusade and Only War. I'm staring right at the Combat Actions right now, and it clearly lists Charge as a Full-Action. So I took the time to check Black Crusade, because it just didn't make sense to me that Charge would ever be a Half-Action, given the narrative context of rounds and what they represent, and the sheer distance you can move with a Charge.

Black Crusade also lists it as a Full-Action.

And far from all Attack Actions are Half-Actions. Stun and All-Out-Attack are still very much Full Actions, just like Charge. Are we reading the same rulebook? Because there's no end to how much your post is confusing me.

Edit: Mind you, what you describe relating to Whirlwind of Death sounds about right when it comes to how I'd expect the rule to be meant to work; I do believe that it was intended to only require you to make one attack, and as long as there are other enemies within reach, trigger Whirlwind of Death, allowing you to make one Half-Action Attack which does not grant extra blows against each opponent within reach, as Free Actions.

But that's not what it says , and the whole bit about all Attack Actions being Half-Actions, including Charge, is just downright weird .

Stand alone. There is no specific talent to allow you 'to attack multiple foes' - aside, of course, from Whirlwind of Death . You're only making standard attacks, so none is needed.

The effect is that you make a standard attack (half action) against one opponent. You may then - as a free action - attack another foe, then another, then another, until you have made a standard attack against each foe. You may not double-tap any one target, and can't cheat by using any other talents which might allow you to.

The only part which counts for actions is a half action (the first attack) so you can indeed do it after charging. However, it's nigh impossible to charge and be in combat with two opponents unless charging into a shoulder-to-shoulder mass of orks (which I believe is referred to as 'a bloody stupid plan'); generally you'll have to settle for charging opponent A then wait for opponent B to countercharge into you.


The 'cant use multiple attack skills during a charge' was never a specific restriction that I'm aware of; but in previous versions like Dark Heresy, Swift Attack, Lighting Attack, and Two-Weapon Wielder were full actions - hence the Charge action specifically said you got a standard attack.

In Black Crusade and Only War, the Charge was reduced to a half action, and all the attack actions were made half actions - so as far as I know you can use whatever you like.

All out attack is a full round action, and it can be used with that as well so long as you don't use the "Furious Assault" talent, no?

Edited by Malbojia

In fact Furious Charge isn't a talent at all, its a codex attack pattern mode for Space Marines, so God knows why it's mentioned at all, It can't be simple cut/paste from Deathwatch because their version reads very different.

Question: Why would the talent specifically list "Furious Charge" (a talent that gives an extra attack on a charge) as something they don't want you combining it with, if the talent was not able to be used with a normal charge attack in the first place?

All out attack is a full round action, and it can be used with that as well, no?

Also, since the gained attacks are not "attack" actions, but counted as "free" actions within the attack, they can be layered on too any length of appropriate action that does not grant extra attacks, can they not?

Like I said earlier though, there's actually no such thing as Furious Charge in Only War. Upon re-examination, it could be referring to Furious Assault, but Furious Assault doesn't do anything at all for Charges. There's Berserk Charge, but all that does is make the +20 WS into +30 WS.

Furious Assault, granting an extra attack on an All-Out-Attack, however, could be used to trigger Whirlwind of Death. Might be very useful if you don't have any intention to ever dual-wield.

That said, the prohibitions listed are specifically for the secondary attacks, not the first attack; if you Charge or Lightning Attack on the first attack, that's fine, nothing is stopping you from doing so, the way Whirlwind of Death is worded.

The defining characteristic of the things you cannot do (and the ONLY kind of attacks that are not usable, by how it's written) with Whirlwind of Death is any kind of attack action that grants extra attacks. And it only applies to attacks past the first.

Also, the gained attacks are "Attack" actions AND Free Actions. Half-Actions, Full-Actions, Free-Actions and Reactions are Types, while Attack, Concentration, Melee, etc, are Subtypes.

I.. I'm not sure I understand your questions, though, but I hope that clarifies it for you somewhat.

Edit: If it's any help, I've sent a Rules Question to FFG asking for clarification, because the way Whirlwind of Death is written, it's both contrived (being very hard to execute; I can only think of two ways or so) and broken (pulling extra Stuns or All-Out Attacks against EVERYONE IN FRONT OF YOU).

Edited by Fgdsfg

Like I said earlier though, there's actually no such thing as Furious Charge in Only War. Upon re-examination, it could be referring to Furious Assault, but Furious Assault doesn't do anything at all for Charges. There's Berserk Charge, but all that does is make the +20 WS into +30 WS.

Furious Assault, granting an extra attack on an All-Out-Attack, however, could be used to trigger Whirlwind of Death. Might be very useful if you don't have any intention to ever dual-wield.

That said, the prohibitions listed are specifically for the secondary attacks, not the first attack; if you Charge or Lightning Attack on the first attack, that's fine, nothing is stopping you from doing so, the way Whirlwind of Death is worded.

Also, the gained attacks are "Attack" actions AND Free Actions. Half-Actions, Full-Actions, Free-Actions and Reactions are Types, while Attack, Concentration, Melee, etc, are Subtypes.

I.. I'm not sure I understand your questions, though, but I hope that clarifies it for you somewhat.

I had a brain fart with the "free action" part and removed it from my post. XD

And I was making the assumption that Furious Charge was the Charge actions answer to All Out Attacks Furious Assault, so that's my bad (only ever played 3 sessions of DW).

But I think I understand it enough now to correct the people in my party group, so thanks. XD

Edited by Malbojia

[...]

But I think I understand it enough now to correct the people in my party group, so thanks. XD

I would keep watching the thread, though, since I sent a Rules Question to FFG. The way the talent is written and how it functions is not how I think it's intended to function.

I think the intent of the talent is to confer a number of bonus Half-Action Melee Attacks as Free Actions, against the number of enemies in reach, excluding the first, once you've made a single Melee Attack of any Action, with the stipulation that any of those Half-Action Melee Attacks (that are now Free Actions) not being able to grant additional attacks.

I realize that sounds convoluted and makes for terrible rules-text, but that's how I think it was intended .

I like the functionality as-is, however, although I wouldn't mind rewording it completely, add an actual "Furious Charge"-talent that grants multiple attacks on a Charge (analogous to Furious Assault), and add examples for clarification. But that would be entirely homebrewed on my part.

Edited by Fgdsfg

[...]

But I think I understand it enough now to correct the people in my party group, so thanks. XD

I would keep watching the thread, though, since I sent a Rules Question to FFG. The way the talent is written and how it functions is not how I think it's intended to function.

I think the intent of the talent is to confer a number of bonus Half-Action Melee Attacks as Free Actions, against the number of enemies in reach, excluding the first, once you've made a single Melee Attack of any Action, with the stipulation that any of those Half-Action Melee Attacks (that are now Free Actions) not being able to grant additional attacks.

I realize that sounds convoluted and makes for terrible rules-text, but that's how I think it was intended .

I like the functionality as-is, however, although I wouldn't mind rewording it completely, add an actual "Furious Charge"-talent that grants multiple attacks on a Charge (analogous to Furious Assault), and add examples for clarification. But that would be entirely homebrewed on my part.

Alright, will do. Thanks again!