I've searched all over the forums and poured over the book, but I can't seem to find an answer to one question regarding dice results.
What happens if successes and failures exactly cancel each other out?
While I know the odds are rare, I had someone do it during the Mos Shuuta beginner game, and I wasn't sure exactly how I should handle it. I knew how to do something for success or failure, but technically *neither* happened.
Thanks for any advice (or pointing to rules).
VW~
Then the roll is unsuccessful.
The odds are not rare, we've had it happen quite a few times but usually are left with threats or advantages.
Then the roll is unsuccessful.
The odds are not rare, we've had it happen quite a few times but usually are left with threats or advantages.
Thanks,
I had a couple of those, and that allowed me to work around the issue, but I had one that came up exactly neutral... and since it wasn't a "failure" or "success" I wasn't sure how it should be handled. I basically said that there was a lot of noise, but nothing seemed to have happened (think they were shooting)
Jim~
Technically it is a failure. A success is a result with at least one uncancelled success, so conversely, anything else is a failure.
But Despair, Triumph, and Threat/Advantage all may apply for some great results.
Even a Simple check (no difficulty) without a Success pip is a failure. You need 1 Success for the primary effort to be successful, but the actual outcome of the check (success, failure, advantage, threat, whatever else) is entirely dependent on the situation.
So while you might "fail" a check, rarely should these words cross your lips: "Nothing happens."
Generally it's a good idea to narrate what happens with the failure of the check; after all, your characters aren't acting in a vacuum. They are contributing to a developing (and one would hope, dramatic) scene, and so while they might fail, they can do so in an interesting way that at least inspires the next player's creativity, if not adding solid mechanical benefits to the PC's skill check.
Like everyone said it's a failure but due to the system a failure is not always so plain for example:
Your characters are fighting in a scrap yard against some horrid lizard like creatures that have set up home there. Your character is fighting off one of these smelly foul things in melee combat and has a large metal bar in his hand that he grabbed from the scrap. He rolls to hit and gets no successes but has two advantages this could mean many things like.
"Your character swings like a crazed fool at the creature but has no success in landing a blow but due to his manic swinging you hit some rusted chains that is holding all kinds of scrap above your head. The chain breaks sending the scrap tumbling down but luckily you see it coming and jump out of the way and it all just barely misses the lizard."
So now you're no longer in melee combat and the GM could give the lizard a black die to his next roll due to shock.
Thanks for all the feedback everyone...
Actually had this event come up in the game I ran tonight.. Player attempting hide in a back room and listen in to a conversation a technician near by was having with a guard. She rolled 2 green and 2 purple and they washed evenly to zero.
So I explained that she did manage to stay hidden but the spot she was hiding in was pretty padded so she couldn't hear the complete conversation, she could only hear the technicians replies but not the guards questions.
Seemed like a decent outcome given the feedback I got here
VW~
I think it's helpful to remember that failure doesn't stack. Having the same number of successes and failures is, within the game system, the same as getting a big pile of uncanceled failures. Once you have a failure, the question of "how bad a failure?" is answered by whether there are threats or despairs (or both), and how many of those.
I think it's helpful to remember that failure doesn't stack. Having the same number of successes and failures is, within the game system, the same as getting a big pile of uncanceled failures. Once you have a failure, the question of "how bad a failure?" is answered by whether there are threats or despairs (or both), and how many of those.
Yeah and important distinction that can create some oddities if not adhered to. You either succeed or fail first and foremost. The advantages/disadvantages/Triumphs/Despairs tell the rest of the story. Having 5 successes and 1 failure doesn't mean you succeeded really well, it just means you succeeded. In some cases their are mechanical aspects like extra damage that result from extra successes but its not meant to be part of the narrative contribution.
I think it's helpful to remember that failure doesn't stack. Having the same number of successes and failures is, within the game system, the same as getting a big pile of uncanceled failures. Once you have a failure, the question of "how bad a failure?" is answered by whether there are threats or despairs (or both), and how many of those.
Yeah and important distinction that can create some oddities if not adhered to. You either succeed or fail first and foremost. The advantages/disadvantages/Triumphs/Despairs tell the rest of the story. Having 5 successes and 1 failure doesn't mean you succeeded really well, it just means you succeeded. In some cases their are mechanical aspects like extra damage that result from extra successes but its not meant to be part of the narrative contribution.
I don't think that's accurate. The core book says that failure is failure, regardless of how many net failures are in the result they don't make you fail harder ; however, it says that for a successful check, how many net successes in the check alter the magnitude of the success.
I think it's helpful to remember that failure doesn't stack. Having the same number of successes and failures is, within the game system, the same as getting a big pile of uncanceled failures. Once you have a failure, the question of "how bad a failure?" is answered by whether there are threats or despairs (or both), and how many of those.
Yeah and important distinction that can create some oddities if not adhered to. You either succeed or fail first and foremost. The advantages/disadvantages/Triumphs/Despairs tell the rest of the story. Having 5 successes and 1 failure doesn't mean you succeeded really well, it just means you succeeded. In some cases their are mechanical aspects like extra damage that result from extra successes but its not meant to be part of the narrative contribution.
I don't think that's accurate. The core book says that failure is failure, regardless of how many net failures are in the result they don't make you fail harder ; however, it says that for a successful check, how many net successes in the check alter the magnitude of the success.
That's my understanding as well. From p. 24 of the core book:
"A character may achieve a high magnitude success with no other complications, or a low magnitude success with Advantages, or a moderate success with Advantages, or a moderate success with Advantages that are tempered with Despair. Likewise, failed checks may have a silver lining by also featuring Advantages or Triumph, or create truly dire situations in which failure is accompanied by both Threats and Despair."
I take that to mean that there is no magnitude of failure (if the total failures cancels out the total successes, it doesn't matter by how much) but there are magnitudes of success (the number of uncanceled successes you roll determines the degree of success).
I think it's helpful to remember that failure doesn't stack. Having the same number of successes and failures is, within the game system, the same as getting a big pile of uncanceled failures. Once you have a failure, the question of "how bad a failure?" is answered by whether there are threats or despairs (or both), and how many of those.
Yeah and important distinction that can create some oddities if not adhered to. You either succeed or fail first and foremost. The advantages/disadvantages/Triumphs/Despairs tell the rest of the story. Having 5 successes and 1 failure doesn't mean you succeeded really well, it just means you succeeded. In some cases their are mechanical aspects like extra damage that result from extra successes but its not meant to be part of the narrative contribution.
I don't think that's accurate. The core book says that failure is failure, regardless of how many net failures are in the result they don't make you fail harder ; however, it says that for a successful check, how many net successes in the check alter the magnitude of the success.
That's my understanding as well. From p. 24 of the core book:
"A character may achieve a high magnitude success with no other complications, or a low magnitude success with Advantages, or a moderate success with Advantages, or a moderate success with Advantages that are tempered with Despair. Likewise, failed checks may have a silver lining by also featuring Advantages or Triumph, or create truly dire situations in which failure is accompanied by both Threats and Despair."
I take that to mean that there is no magnitude of failure (if the total failures cancels out the total successes, it doesn't matter by how much) but there are magnitudes of success (the number of uncanceled successes you roll determines the degree of success).
Sure, but there is no reason you can't use the magnitude of failure as a gauge for the description of the failure. Just try not to step into Despair range of failure and you should be fine.
Sure, but there is no reason you can't use the magnitude of failure as a gauge for the description of the failure. Just try not to step into Despair range of failure and you should be fine.
This. Its hard not to see 5 'success' blips and not have that affect the narration of how well that check was resolved in the story, and conversely how badly it was failed with multiple 'failure' blips. As long as there is a marked difference between those outcomes and ones with triumph/despair.
As far as a complete wash scenario...dice come up completely cancelled out...I describe these as 'near misses' and 'almosts.' i.e. a blaster shot whizzes just over the target's head...or the bartender is mildly amused, but doesn't laugh at your joke...or, the bounty hunter seems to flinch at your attempt to intimidate him, but doesn't stand down, etc.
This is how we play anyway.
Yeah, using the failure pips in the narrative pretty much falls under "using the dice for narrative purposes." You got failure symbols on the challenge die, the difficulty die, and the setback die? Your blaster bolts are completely ineffective against the targeted NPC because you're too far away, he is keeping his head down like he's been trained to do, and his cover is too good. Change your positioning and try again; your position is just no good.
No real mechanical detriment, but it does keep the scene moving!
Thanks for all the feedback everyone...
Actually had this event come up in the game I ran tonight.. Player attempting hide in a back room and listen in to a conversation a technician near by was having with a guard. She rolled 2 green and 2 purple and they washed evenly to zero.
So I explained that she did manage to stay hidden but the spot she was hiding in was pretty padded so she couldn't hear the complete conversation, she could only hear the technicians replies but not the guards questions.
Seemed like a decent outcome given the feedback I got here
VW~
It's your game but RAW says if it's a wash then the check is a failure. To me you described the outcome of a successful check with threat.
The book clearly states you need 1 success not canceled out for the check to be a success.
I have a question. If a character is attacking a vehicle, say a speeder bike, and gets 2 successes, for a total damage of 9 and enough advantages to activate a Crit. Does he actually activate the Crit on the bike or would he need to get 10 damage or more? Since it takes at least 10 points from personal scale to equal 1 point on planetary scale. But in order to score a Crit to have to over come the Soak/Armor and get at least on success to activate a Crit, I was a little confused on the subject.
I have a question. If a character is attacking a vehicle, say a speeder bike, and gets 2 successes, for a total damage of 9 and enough advantages to activate a Crit. Does he actually activate the Crit on the bike or would he need to get 10 damage or more? Since it takes at least 10 points from personal scale to equal 1 point on planetary scale. But in order to score a Crit to have to over come the Soak/Armor and get at least on success to activate a Crit, I was a little confused on the subject.
It did not penetrate the armor so no internal systems were damaged.
No Crit is possible.
Edit - Perhaps he could use those advantages to hit the pilot instead?
Edited by FangGripYeah I'd have him knock the pilot off the bike for that kind of advantage.
But you have to actually cause damage to activate a crit, and since 9 damage = 0 Hull Trauma, no go on the Vehicle Crit.