I just remember a stormtrooper ripping the head off a wookie child's stuffed bantha in an ancient Christmas special, and I've hated them ever since. Nobody force-choked that trooper into being a jerk.

... there was no Holiday Special, there was no Holiday Special, there was no Holiday Special...

Every single time this happens.

Why can't people just answer the OP question? Keep the personal preferences of Imperial or no Imperial off of it? They had a serious question and wanted discussion. Not a diatribe.

If it keeps up, this thread is going to get frozen JUST LIKE THE LAST ONE.

Everybody has made their point. Now, can we please get back to the original concept in a helpful manner?

Please?

Have the bad guys kick enough dogs so whatever the PCs do they look like the good guys is good advice.

I think if Lucas had had the capability to tell the original tale in serial format, he would have shown this side of Imperial life as well, not the narrow, time-constrained view he was limited to.

I think that is like saying that in a Robin Hood series it will turn out that Prince John and the Sheriff of Nottingham are not bad guys after all, or once we spend more time with Ming The Merciless in a Flash Gordon serial we will see his side of the story or in a GI Joe series we will really come to sympathise with Cobra Commander (or Shredder in TMNT or Megatron in Transformers or The Joker in Batman or Voldemort and the Death Eaters etc.).

Have the bad guys kick enough dogs so whatever the PCs do they look like the good guys is good advice.

Sounds more like the PCs are kicking so many dogs that the GM himself would rather quit first.

I think that is like saying that in a Robin Hood series it will turn out that Prince John and the Sheriff of Nottingham are not bad guys after all, or once we spend more time with Ming The Merciless in a Flash Gordon serial we will see his side of the story or in a GI Joe series we will really come to sympathise with Cobra Commander (or Shredder in TMNT or Megatron in Transformers or The Joker in Batman or Voldemort and the Death Eaters etc.).

You realize that in the Clone Wars there is LITERALLY an episode about good people on the other side of the Republic/Seperatist fight. Even though through most of the series, the Seps are seen as very much the dog kicking types (much easier when most of your forces are actually droids), when he was given the ability to tell a story long view, this is what he ACTUALLY DID.

In fact the Separatist equivalent of the Senate voted to END THE WAR, because they actually weren't all warmongering assholes, but Dooku manipulated the situation with terrorist attacks and propoganda to ensure the war would continue.

I'd have said that The Clone Wars is Palpatine playing everyone against each other so they make the mistake of handing him the power he needs to create the evil that is the Empire.

(Which also makes the whole thing curiously low stakes. Clones vs. Droids, both of whom are, in the end, working for the same guy so it doesn't matter who wins.)

The Galactic Civil War, however, matters, as it is real beings fighting to oppose very real oppression with the fate of the galaxy on the line.

The problem is I couldn't even use this yard stick for the characters. I could play with 'Intelligent Evil' - the Profit or Dexter Model.I could play with 'Self Promoting Evil with attachments" - the Godfather or Sopranos model. Unfortunately what I appear to have is the mayhem for kicks model. I cant help wondering if other games rewarding killing with XP might have conditioned their response to anyone who doesn't appear to be a 'quest giver'.

Aaaaand this right here is why ErikB's derail missed the OP's point.

It's almost a super power with him, isn't it.

To address the OP, have Bounties put out on them. Jobs, either legit or criminal dry up, and even the Rebels won't deal with them, because no one wants the kind of heat working with spree killers brings.

For me the baseline is shown in Return of the Jedi. The rebels round up the troops on the base and escort them away. They don't just gun them all down when it's no longer a fight.

I've heard a rumor that those captured troops were then cooked by the Ewoks and served as the celebratory feast...

For me the baseline is shown in Return of the Jedi. The rebels round up the troops on the base and escort them away. They don't just gun them all down when it's no longer a fight.

I've heard a rumor that those captured troops were then cooked by the Ewoks and served as the celebratory feast...

And I heard a rumor that the destruction of the DS II caused an extinction level event on the Sanctuary Moon (remember kids, Endor was the planet).

Doesn't make it true.

There really isn't. It isn't that kind of show.

By your logic, people in the Star Wars universe also don't have to go to the bathroom. I mean we never see somebody take a dump do we? Find me a scene where Yoda goes number 1? You cant! Therefore Jedi don't poop!

or in a GI Joe series we will really come to sympathise with Cobra Commander.

So, you want proof that with enough story telling under the bridge that eventually you will feel sympathy for bad guys? Please allow me to direct your attention to the 2005 season of Doctor Who and the episode Dalek:

The Daleks have done far, far FAR worse than anything the Empire can ever hope to achieve in Palpatine's wildest dark side dreams. You want space Nazis? These guys, are in fact, modeled after Nazis to the last goostep. They are super-intelligent, genetically engineered monsters designed to feel no emotions other than hatred, prejudice, anger and cruelty. They are utterly fanatical about their own inherent superiority, to the point where civil wars have broken out amongst them if factions start displaying minor differences, and choose death when contaminated by foreign DNA. Their goal is nothing less than to exterminate all life in the universe. They are the most amoral, unsympathetic, evil creatures you will ever find, completely incapable - on a genetic level - of being anything but rampaging xenophobic monsters.

And yet. . . by the end of Dalek, the last lone dalek in the universe manages to tug at viewers' heartstrings as it tried to come to grips with being the last one of his race left alive. A sorry fate for a being that believed absolutely in its race's superiority over all others. It started out less upset about being the last Dalek in existence than about having no orders left to follow. But then it gradually got scared, which is a big jumping point since their creator Davros altered them genetically to be incapable of feeling ANY emotion but pride and hate. Even The Doctor felt sorry for this Dalek when he learned it had absorbed some of Rose's DNA and was impure — something it couldn't bear to live with when it found out. That fact makes it even more tragic: for the most part, the Dalek race is essentially damned to self-loathing, fear and finally suicide if it ever sees the light.

Yes - you genuinely feel bad for a killing machine.

And then another four years later at the climax of The End of Time, you genuinely feel bad for the Master, when it's revealed that he was driven insane by the High Council of the Time Lords as part of their plan to escape the last Time War. And then he's cast aside, because he's "diseased". The Master is only slightly less evil to the core than the daleks and you feel bad for him too.

So yes - it can be done. With quality writing you can make the viewer/reader feel for the worst of the worst of the bad guys.

For me the baseline is shown in Return of the Jedi. The rebels round up the troops on the base and escort them away. They don't just gun them all down when it's no longer a fight.

I've heard a rumor that those captured troops were then cooked by the Ewoks and served as the celebratory feast...

Oh I thought we were talking about Stormtroopers. Those Ewoks are vicious. Shoot on sight. If you hear "nub," don't wait around for the other "nub."

For me the baseline is shown in Return of the Jedi. The rebels round up the troops on the base and escort them away. They don't just gun them all down when it's no longer a fight.

I've heard a rumor that those captured troops were then cooked by the Ewoks and served as the celebratory feast...

Oh I thought we were talking about Stormtroopers. Those Ewoks are vicious. Shoot on sight. If you hear "nub," don't wait around for the other "nub."

You would see nothing but jungle, then hear a Nub, then you were dead.

Have the bad guys kick enough dogs so whatever the PCs do they look like the good guys is good advice.

But "no matter what atrocity you commit, it's okay because you're not nearly as bad as the Empire" isn't exactly the Star Wars spirit either.

Do you just hate Star Wars or something?

Pffft, the GM would rather quit than do "the Star Wars spirit according to ErikB".

I had friends on the Death Star.....they died that day when the Empire was attacked ....

It was called the Death Star. Was anyone really all that surprise when it was used to blow up a planet?

Empire was only defending the galaxy. Sir, watch the news!

I would prefer that a Star Wars rpg reflect the Star Wars setting yes. I ain't bored of it yet.

So that covers *your* RPG. Obviously it makes sense to suit your tastes and that of everyone in your group.

I presume that *our* RPGs can be, kinda, whatever we'd like them to be, right?

At the end of the day, there is more to both of these factions than the limited Pollyanna view we were given.

There really isn't. It isn't that kind of show.

TCW is a lot more nuanced that way. Episode Heroes on Both Sides explores this, the Separatist Senator thinks all the stuff about Dooku being a Sith Lord is just propaganda. Like Lucas said about TCW vs the movies, they have more time to explore a theme. I think if Lucas had had the capability to tell the original tale in serial format, he would have shown this side of Imperial life as well, not the narrow, time-constrained view he was limited to.

This is my favorite aspect of The Clone Wars TV show. It gets to spend time with people of all different types all across the galaxy and show lots of different perspectives.

Memories. My first ever D&D experience was in the Caves of Chaos. AdvD&D was used not the Basic set the Caves of Chaos had come in. We ran into the same moral dilemma. The Lawful Good Paladin, of all people, waded into the female and young, slaying them left and right. He preached that orcs are evil incarnate and young/female orcs will just create more full grown warrior orcs, and thus must be removed from existance. It actually made sense in the end that the strict, Lawful Good Paladin would desire this solution even if a Chaotic/Neutral Good character would be against it.

Sounds like someone wanted to lose his Paladinhood.

That's pretty much a definition of Lawful Evil.

... sounds like Anakin "Chosen One" Skywalker, in fact!

I presume that *our* RPGs can be, kinda, whatever we'd like them to be, right?

He'll say yes with one side of his mouth, then harangue you endlessly out the other.

I would prefer that a Star Wars rpg reflect the Star Wars setting yes. I ain't bored of it yet.

So that covers *your* RPG. Obviously it makes sense to suit your tastes and that of everyone in your group.

I presume that *our* RPGs can be, kinda, whatever we'd like them to be, right?

There really isn't. It isn't that kind of show.

By your logic, people in the Star Wars universe also don't have to go to the bathroom. I mean we never see somebody take a dump do we? Find me a scene where Yoda goes number 1? You cant! Therefore Jedi don't poop!

or in a GI Joe series we will really come to sympathise with Cobra Commander.

So, you want proof that with enough story telling under the bridge that eventually you will feel sympathy for bad guys? Please allow me to direct your attention to the 2005 season of Doctor Who and the episode Dalek:

The Daleks have done far, far FAR worse than anything the Empire can ever hope to achieve in Palpatine's wildest dark side dreams. You want space Nazis? These guys, are in fact, modeled after Nazis to the last goostep. They are super-intelligent, genetically engineered monsters designed to feel no emotions other than hatred, prejudice, anger and cruelty. They are utterly fanatical about their own inherent superiority, to the point where civil wars have broken out amongst them if factions start displaying minor differences, and choose death when contaminated by foreign DNA. Their goal is nothing less than to exterminate all life in the universe. They are the most amoral, unsympathetic, evil creatures you will ever find, completely incapable - on a genetic level - of being anything but rampaging xenophobic monsters.

And yet. . . by the end of Dalek, the last lone dalek in the universe manages to tug at viewers' heartstrings as it tried to come to grips with being the last one of his race left alive. A sorry fate for a being that believed absolutely in its race's superiority over all others. It started out less upset about being the last Dalek in existence than about having no orders left to follow. But then it gradually got scared, which is a big jumping point since their creator Davros altered them genetically to be incapable of feeling ANY emotion but pride and hate. Even The Doctor felt sorry for this Dalek when he learned it had absorbed some of Rose's DNA and was impure — something it couldn't bear to live with when it found out. That fact makes it even more tragic: for the most part, the Dalek race is essentially damned to self-loathing, fear and finally suicide if it ever sees the light.

Yes - you genuinely feel bad for a killing machine.

And then another four years later at the climax of The End of Time, you genuinely feel bad for the Master, when it's revealed that he was driven insane by the High Council of the Time Lords as part of their plan to escape the last Time War. And then he's cast aside, because he's "diseased". The Master is only slightly less evil to the core than the daleks and you feel bad for him too.

So yes - it can be done. With quality writing you can make the viewer/reader feel for the worst of the worst of the bad guys.

Quoted the whole thing as it is so true. Brilliant episode. One of my favorites easily.

I presume that *our* RPGs can be, kinda, whatever we'd like them to be, right?

He'll say yes with one side of his mouth, then harangue you endlessly out the other.

While I have tried to stay out of the "conversations" with Erik B I am now among the people that are completely sick of him derailing threads and his broken record routine is driven me bonkers.

I would prefer it if he would understand that;

EVERYONE GETS WHAT YOU ARE GOING ON AND ON ABOUT BUT NO ONE SEEMS TO HAVE THIS STAR-WARS-IS-THE-REAL-UNIVERSE OBSESSION AS YOU DO! STOP REPEATING THE SAME **** OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I had no interest in playing imperials but you made me reconsider this as it seems like a great thing to do just to piss you off.

Stop forcing your obsessive, borderline autistic hatred for a movie bad guy on everybody, it is no longer necessary, everyone knows how you feel and no one cares.