I don't know if the players were murder hobos (someone had to explain that to me!) in games they played before I joined but they're definitely not in EotE.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Murderhobo

"The term arises due to the fact that most adventuring characters and parties are technically homeless vagrants, generally living on the road and sometimes in temporary accommodation, and the default solution to problems faced by the typical adventurer boils down to killing things until the problem is solved or treasure is acquired."

Personally, I only use the term in jest, or if the players in my group starts to look at the game too much like a game without really considering the implications of their actions.

I remember a game when I was 17 and in order to deter some orcs following us I wanted to be like Beorn in the Hobbit, and nail the most recent dead orc to the dungeon door. A couple of friends gagged and said it was a sick idea. Been on the good side ever since

I'd probably be okay with that. The orc was dead. He had been trying to kill you, not just minding his own business. That reminds me a bit of the scene in 'Untouchables' where Ness 'kills' a gangster who is already dead to scare the hell out of another goon. Not nice, but not out of character for an EoE game either.

I remember my first D&D game in 1979, Caves of Chaos. We'd killed the orc guards and were bewildered as to what we had to do with the women and whelps. Someone said: 'We leave them. Don't know about you but I'm not up for killing kids, regardless of what colour they are.' I've been that way ever since, and I'm lucky I've played with others who feel that way.

I do however want to introduce the idea that many of the imperials are just people doing a job though. I want to humanise them. I had a couple of thoughts:

Space Nazi, Space Nazi, Space Nazi, facisist, you like Nazis, evil, evil, evil, Space Nazi, Space Nazi, my way or the highway, Space Nazi.

There, I think that sums up one of these threads,

Star Wars is based around the conception that if they are shooting at me, I have every right to shoot back. This is coming from the seedy Han and Lando. The only person who murders innocents is Anakin Skywalker when he goes to the dark side, starting with some sand people on Tatooine and moving to the Jedi Padawans on Coruscant.

OPs players are playing dark siders, not saying Edge of the Empire doesn't have space for it, but then it's a dark side campaign that everyone is ready for. At the start of every Star Wars game I've run I've pointed out to players that we aren't playing a dark side campaign and that players who become morally bankrupt will be transformed into NPCs, and yes I've had to do it twice in my 10 year tenure at this.

On the plus side we've had some great grey/seedy campaigns with some epic villains that were constructed by the players.

Oh, by the way - I had TWO instances of nice imperials just last weekend. One was a star destroyer picking up our nearly crippled ship that was kicking out a distress call (the doctor on board even treated everyone's wounds above and beyond giving them a medical check up for the plague that the distress call was claiming we had - because you know, Hippocratic oath and whatnot) - although we did get fined for all manner of safety violations on the ship.

The second was a squadron of TIE fighters and a customs corvette stopping pirates from jumping our ship. Yes, they didn't shoot at us, they shot at the people behind us.

Guess I'm just a fascist that likes Nazis then.

I'm not sure if hoppin' on the Nazi comparison train is really the best way to discuss this topic.

I'd say that the movies portray an Empire that is so obnoxiously evil and depraved that I'm not even really sure how it doesn't collapse in on itself. However, I'm also fairly aware of the fact that this is at least partly done as a narrative device to make us root for the good guys instead of the bad guys.

As a result, I feel like the issue comes down to personal opinion. Star Wars relies on over-exaggerated good and evil for the sake of their dramatic space opera narrative. It's up to you to decide if that fits your own narrative. (And yes, it's possible to tell a Star Wars story without telling it exactly the way the movies are told).

Personally, I'd rather show the galaxy as a more realistic place. The heads of the Empire might be crazy and totally whacked out, but everyone following them has their own reasons for doing so. They aren't all just a walking stereotype. As a result, my campaign has principled, chivalrous Imperials and stupidly brutal and depraved Rebels (historically, members of rebellion are also prone to doing really terrible things to people).

Real life armies are made up of people, and that fundamentally means that how they act (or at least what they believe) will not always conform with the acts and beliefs of their leaders. I think it's perfectly reasonable to depict Stormtroopers this way if you want to.

For me and my group it really depends on the game and what we expect from it.

My players are mostly willing to be "good" guys even if they have to make hard choices.

On the other hand, in a D&D playtest we ran the party systematically eliminated an entire tribe of kobolds except for one youngling. The fighter held him down and made him watch. Then he told him "When you're ready, you come for us. We'll be waiting." [First kobold PC ever] In defense of the above atrocity, it was a oneshot play test that we weren't going to keep playing, so the cerealness level was a bit low. but it was funny. at the time.

It definitely depends on what your players want out of the game.

I'd agree that classic Star Wars isn't about being wandering psychopaths ("murder hobos", I think someone described it).

However, in Star Wars Galaxies, I and my guild had a lot of fun playing as underworld criminals more along the lines of The Godfather series than the lovable rogues of Serenity or the Millennium Falcon.

The Godfather, Goodfellas, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, all these shows feature gangsters and criminals who are definitely not good guys--The Rebel Alliance as we know it would be just as opposed to Michael Corleone as they are to the Empire. But they can still make fun characters to play, exploring more of a dark side.

To me the real test is whether the players play their characters as though they're human beings, with a sense of consequences to their actions, and attachments to other people. Sonny Corleone in The Godfather is a murdering criminal, but he has attachments to the people in his family, he cares about them, and he does have a sense of right and wrong. He's not just a psychopathic murderer.

Anyway, it's certainly not 'canon Star Wars' feeling to play as criminals to this level, but it can be fun if the players are interested in doing some roleplaying. If they're just interested in shooting everybody they meet in the head, then I dunno what to do about that.

I'm not sure if hoppin' on the Nazi comparison train is really the best way to discuss this topic.

Eh, that was me just being sarcastic - that's how these topics inevitably wind up before the mods swoop in and lock things. Pay me no mind. (:

I'd say that the movies portray and Empire that is so obnoxiously evil and depraved that I'm not even really sure how it doesn't collapse in on itself. However, I'm also fairly aware of the fact that this is at least partly done as a narrative device to make us root for the good guys instead of the bad guys.

The thing that everyone always seems to forget about the movies is that the movies are an attempt to do a big budget Flash Gordon movie serial with White Hats and Black Hats and a very Yellow Menace Ming the Merciless twirling his mustache and cackling while lowering Dale over a pit of spikes and fire ants. And you know what, I have no problem with that - I love the hell out of Saturday Morning Serials, I love Lone Ranger and Superman mentality heroics, I like my Movie Star Wars just the way it is.

On the other hand, playing White Hat Heroics for 20 years (I've been doing this since first edition D6) gets tiresome. I enjoy exploring dark heroics (we did a black ops rebel team for years), I'm enjoying my coreworld prospective pro-imperial character - and yes, we do White Hat Heroics games too.

Hmm, not sure where I'm going with that other than the universe is big enough to support every style of play. We shouldn't get locked into just one mentality (of either White Hat or Black Hat stripe).

Real life armies are made up of people, and that fundamentally means that how they act (or at least what they believe) will not always conform with the acts and beliefs of their leaders. I think it's perfectly reasonable to depict Stormtroopers this way if you want to.

Actually, of everyone in the Empire, the Stormtroopers are the fellows I would credit with always toeing the party line 100% all the time, There might be room for nice officers or Imperial doctors that want to heal everyone - but the faceless minions of the Emperor should maintain strict adherence to Imperial Doctrine at all times.

(But then in my personal canon, stormtroopers are all clones - a fact that was very clearly established back in 1978 and ignored since - and there's none of this drafting of other people into the Stormtrooper Corps. Other clone templates? Sure. Bringing civilians onboard? Nope.)

Actually, of everyone in the Empire, the Stormtroopers are the fellows I would credit with always toeing the party line 100% all the time, There might be room for nice officers or Imperial doctors that want to heal everyone - but the faceless minions of the Emperor should maintain strict adherence to Imperial Doctrine at all times.

(But then in my personal canon, stormtroopers are all clones - a fact that was very clearly established back in 1978 and ignored since - and there's none of this drafting of other people into the Stormtrooper Corps. Other clone templates? Sure. Bringing civilians onboard? Nope.)

If you've got them all as clones, I can totally understand that. I am, however, partial to the idea that clones are slowly being phased out.

The other reason why I feel like it would apply to Stormtroopers (at least in my games), is that despite being referred to as the "elites" of the Imperial army, there is no other basic infantry in the Imperial army. Someone has to be the regular rank and file trooper (at least in my mind). And I'd personally rather homebrew the existence of "Royal" Stormtroopers as the real elites, or something, rather than homebrewing an entirely new regular infantry type for the Imperial army.

The whole "all of them are elite!" thing is a bit too Space Marine-y for me.

Not all of them.

Despite the influx of new troopers from various sources, the ranks remained dominated by Human males, thus reflecting the New Order's Human High Culture. By 0 BBY, roughly one-third of the stormtroopers were clones based on the Fett template, while recruits steadily became the majority within the Stormtrooper Corps.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper

The thing that everyone always seems to forget about the movies is that the movies are an attempt to do a big budget Flash Gordon movie serial with White Hats and Black Hats and a very Yellow Menace Ming the Merciless twirling his moustache and cackling while lowering Dale over a pit of spikes and fire ants.

I don't think I do. :-(

(And I tend to think that whatever one personally wants to do with the Star Wars, there will always be new kids who are just discovering it for the first time, and I think it is important that they can have the same fun with it we did. As such, different interpretations (and I think it should be clear by now that I think having a less than thoroughly despicable Empire is a reinterpretation of the setting) should, I feel, remain as personal interpretations while the core setting retains the core values of Star Wars.)

I don't think I do. :-(

Ooh - wait, wait - I remember where I was going with that. The nature of the medium requires to speak in shorthand. Lucas has only - what 12 hours (give or take) to tell his story. He has work within the constraints of the medium to set the universe, thus the Nimodians are very Fu-manchu-ish and Luke wears a white hat. He doesn't have the time (or interest of the audiance) not speak in shorthand.

On the other hand, storytelling in the RPG - well, 12 hours is one really awesome game session. We've got room to expand on the mustache twirling because we've got 6 hours a week for the rest of our lives (or however long the game runs for). We've got room to let the story breath.

And I tend to think that whatever one personally wants to do with the Star Wars, there will always be new kids who are just discovering it for the first time, and I think it is important that they can have the same fun with it we did. As such, different interpretations (and I think it should be clear by now that I think having a less than thoroughly despicable Empire is a reinterpretation of the setting) should, I feel, remain as personal interpretations while the core setting retains the core values of Star Wars.

Thing is - there's always the gateway drug. Publishing a book on how to run Imperials, a book on how to run a Corelone crime family and a book on how to run Rebels versus Empire will not make the frames fall off of the film. The DVDs will always be available. It's just giving us options in a very wide and diverse setting.

Not all of them.

Despite the influx of new troopers from various sources, the ranks remained dominated by Human males, thus reflecting the New Order's Human High Culture. By 0 BBY, roughly one-third of the stormtroopers were clones based on the Fett template, while recruits steadily became the majority within the Stormtrooper Corps.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper

That's what the Lucas party line says now, but back in 1977 in the Star Wars Poster Magazine it said that the stormtroopers were clones. So my contention is that the expanded universe got it wrong.

(It was funny back in 2003 when attack of the clones came out and everyone was all "Wait! The stormtroopers are clones? The hell!" and I was all "well, duh. I knew that already.")

But hey - I know I'm tilting at windmills here. Go about your non-clone stormtrooper business, citizen.

If you expand the shorthand though, you get things like:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nazis:_A_Warning_from_History

It is still going to explain why the Empire is bad news. It will just take longer.

I thought the problem OP described was his own unhappy finding that his own player characters were just as bad and he wasn't willing to do an "evil vs. evil" campaign...

The only one of those BBC topics that is really close to the subject of the "common man in the greater army" that we're discussing is the last one, but it particularly focuses on why they'd fight when defeat was potentially inevitable, which is different in a significant way to, "Why did you fight as a member of this army in the first place?"

But again, Nazis are a horrible example to use in this subject. Yeah, yeah. I get that the Empire was meant to reflect the Nazis, but basically no group of human beings can rationally discuss them (including the BBC), so let's not.

If you expand the shorthand though, you get things like:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nazis:_A_Warning_from_History

It is still going to explain why the Empire is bad news. It will just take longer.

It still doesn't change the fact that we're working with two entirely different mediums here. Lucas has a very finite amount of time to tell the story he wanted while we have all the time in the world to expand and explore. Limiting that exploration seems but pure folly.

To me the real test is whether the players play their characters as though they're human beings, with a sense of consequences to their actions, and attachments to other people. Sonny Corleone in The Godfather is a murdering criminal, but he has attachments to the people in his family, he cares about them, and he does have a sense of right and wrong. He's not just a psychopathic murderer.

The problem is I couldn't even use this yard stick for the characters.

I could play with 'Intelligent Evil' - the Profit or Dexter Model.

I could play with 'Self Promoting Evil with attachments" - the Godfather or Sopranos model.

Unfortunately what I appear to have is the mayhem for kicks model. I cant help wondering if other games rewarding killing with XP might have conditioned their response to anyone who doesn't appear to be a 'quest giver'.

The problem is I couldn't even use this yard stick for the characters.

I could play with 'Intelligent Evil' - the Profit or Dexter Model.

I could play with 'Self Promoting Evil with attachments" - the Godfather or Sopranos model.

Unfortunately what I appear to have is the mayhem for kicks model. I cant help wondering if other games rewarding killing with XP might have conditioned their response to anyone who doesn't appear to be a 'quest giver'.

Aaaaand this right here is why ErikB's derail missed the OP's point.

I thought the problem OP described was his own unhappy finding that his own player characters were just as bad and he wasn't willing to do an "evil vs. evil" campaign...

Actually this highlights the fact that I'm miss understanding the problem. I would love to do an Evil vs Evil campaign with the right sort of players.

Can you imagine how much fun you could have playing a group of intelligent sociopaths trying to take down the empire. A campaign with the likes of Han Gruber (Die Hard), Dexter Morgan (Dexter), Patrick Bateman (American Psycho), Hannibal Lecter (Silence of the Lambs), Jim Profit (Profit) and James Moriarty (Sherlock) coming to take down the Empire would be fantastic - assuming they didn't kill each other first.

Aaaahh, morality in a Role Playing Game. Isn't an RPG a social story? This may be a great way to teach a little moral code and ethic to the players. Remember what Ben said, "from a certain point of view". If you had a co-worker that just got shot in the face for no apparent reason, what does that make the shooter? Active shooter, evil, deranged? From the societies (general population) stand-point, the shooter is an outright murderer. This would cause a lot of law enforcement, local LEO or Storm troopers to enter the scene and tactically/ possibly kinetically end the shooters life. use the actions and the motivations for the movement of the storyline. If they act unethical, let them reap the consequences. If they want too play omnipotent super heroes/villians, they may be playing the wrong game.

I'd like to reinforce that imperial Stormtroopers, Tie pilots and minor functionaries serving the empire are people too. The emperor is evil, the empires objectives and aims are wrong, the way its treats people (and particularly aliens) is horrible, and evil people tend to end up in positions of power, but the common trooper is often just doing a job.

In my first session some of my players showed a desire to kill rather indiscriminately, often using it as a first resort. One of them is then happily looting bodies. In fact on one occasion they chose to shoot someone in the head, rather than talking to them and asking a favour. If that's what they really want to do I'm not going to stop them - although the repercussions will be worse. The Imperials are more likely to come down rather heavy handedly when units are killed or small outposts get wiped out, than if the same objectives were achieved by deceit, stealth, subterfuge or charm (without the body count).

I do however want to introduce the idea that many of the imperials are just people doing a job though. I want to humanise them. I had a couple of thoughts:

1) I can introduce a location where off duty Stormtroopers spend their time. Perhaps a pub or cantina? Surprisingly they'll talk about the same things as everyone else - Life back home, their hopes and aspirations, their family, their women (or men), their fears, their lost comrades.

2) Looting is going to find the sort of stuff real people might carry with them. Photos, keys, mementos, library and membership cards and small change.

3) Finally in the near future (whenever a certain characters family obligation triggers), I'm introducing a sub-plot where a characters sister calls on them to help. Her son (the characters nephew) dreams of getting off planet away from mundane life, and sees joining the Imperial Academy and becoming a pilot as their way out. She wants them to talk the kid out of it. This allows me to introduce some of the reasons people join the imperials through the mouth of a friendly character. It also highlights that but for a chance encounter with 2 droids Luke would have joined the Imperial navy.

But if mayhem and slaughter, and looting bodies is what they want I'm not doing anything beyond these steps to stop them. Its their game as much as mine. I'd just like to remind them that Stormtroopers are people too. It might be a much shorter game though. Mad violent mayhem isn't the sort of game I generally enjoy and I'm much more likely to find ways to wrap the game up quickly, with a reasonable conclusion, if I'm not enjoying it.

(I'm also going to talk to the players out of game and make my preference for game style known.)

May I suggest changing the Stormtroopers to Imperial Army Troops? You get the same humanizing elements that you seem to be looking for, but keep the shock and awe of the Stormtroopers intact. And avoid all of the controversy.

Sorry, sorry - that was as much me egging him on. Okay, lets set about ignoring the derail and setting about on how to solve the problem.

Couple of things I could think of:

* Repercussions!

Let them murder that cop that pulled them over for speeding. Have fun getting back to the spaceport when every law enforcement officer is trying to hunt you down. And if captured alive, they will almost certainly "fall down some stairs" a couple of times.

* You needed him

Let the ice that shopkeeper. Pity he was the only one who knew the combination to the safe to get the supplies you desperately needed. Oh, and you don't have time to crack it yourself, the authorities are on the way to respond to the gunfire.

* Enforced interaction

Throw them in a lifepod (or other enclosed situation) where they have to interact with others instead of murdering them. Yeah, we can get out of this mess we're in, but we'll need to work together!

* Co lateral damage

The players get a touch too enthusiastic and get some bystanders killed. Gee, you just accidentally killed this child - you monster.

* Make combat messy

There was another idea, I think over in the looting thread, where the imperials were incapacitated but not dead, they were lying on the ground, pleading for help and in obvious distress from some pretty nasty wounds. So, the players storm a bunker to hack some computers, for example - instead of clean kills, make the kills messy. They have to listen to the stormtroopers roll around, slowly dieing from the gut shot they just inflicted upon him.

***edit***

My bad - there is one thing you should do before you do any of the above: TALK to your players, Tell them "You know, this really isn't how Star Wars works, it's not true to the genre". Tell them that they don't get experience for killing every last stormtrooper in the room. Tell them what you want to see out of the game and ask them what they expect. Try and get everyone on the same page, and if they persist, tell them - "You can do this, but there will be repercussions in the game. We will not be playing a murder simulator".

And THEN do the above.

I suspect part of the problem is the indiscriminate blood bath.

Is it indiscriminate or only directed at lackeys of the Evil Empire? If they are shooting everyone you have more of a problem than if they are only targeting people who can easily be identified as The Bad Guys.