As for the kroot they can do well in dark heresy if they are the stealth kind found in rogue trader. They have the same stealth capabilities of a vindicare assassin. It is not impossible to have one of those that can sneak pass everyone without leaving a single trace.

Edit: Oh now private messages starts to work. Don't know what the problem was. For some reason I can't send in a private message to you Tom Cruise, but everyone else that I clicked on is okay. I will delete my response towards you and stick to private messages if cps wants to respond.

Still I want kroot mercenary options. There has to be at least one inquisitor that needs a strong, stealthy, and perceptive fighter that can act like a garbage disposal unit to take care of any "unwanted heretics". You can't deny how useful that is.

It's funny, because the TT Kroots regressed into Catachan Jungle Fighter clones (they have exactly the same stats as the old Catachans) with better guns. So if we go with the "FFG should follow the TT changes" thing then you can wave your Unnatural Strength goodbye with your Kroot. And at that point, they wouldn't really have a role humans couldn't fill.

Really? Well that is pretty sad. Do they still keep their perception and evolution traits through?

Regarding the Kroot Mercenary thing, the issue is that ultimately, regardless of how people choose to use Dark Heresy, it's primarily meant to be an investigation focused game. Kroot don't work well for espionage, investigation and the like, because it's basically impossible to blend in with an alien in the group.

Cut to: Luke and Han dressed as Stormtroopers, leading Chewbacca through the Deathstar.

And ultimately, anything FFH do does have to be GW approved, unless they want to lose their license pretty **** quickly. I think the best we'll get in official material is the occasional nod from one of the cheekier writers.

Just one thing: Dawn of War games (especially DoW2). They literally cross-raped the fluff and they still have the license.

Now, compare the Khornate Librarian to the expanded fluff of some random footnote in the TT BRB...

I can't believe I'm having this conversation again on this same forum, but here we go.

Don't use the word **** to describe choices in artistic direction you don't agree with. Using the word **** for anything other than what the word actually means is not okay.

e; apparently "r-a-p-e" is censored, but "fluff-raped" is not. Nice clbuttic mistake FFG.

Thank you for making a post that has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand over something that many people are not taking offense at. Seriously cps you need to stop making these posts because your not going to get your way, you end up hurting conversations, and you have no authority to censor anyone.

Couple things here. First, just because nobody up until me posted about it doesn't mean, a) that nobody took offense at it, and b) that it is unworthy of taking offense at. Secondly, I will not cease calling people out on using harmful language or expressing opinions that cause harm (the original incarnation of this line of discussion is a great example of this). Thirdly, you are woefully wrong about the definition of censorship. What I'm doing is not censoring anybody. What I am doing is calling people out on unacceptable behavior, expressing my indignation at it, and calling for that person to cease their unacceptable behavior on the grounds of common respect and decency. That is not censorship.

Censorship is replacing words with asterisks, which as we have seen is ultimately pointless.

Really? Well that is pretty sad. Do they still keep their perception and evolution traits through?

They lost the Unnatural Perception equivalent too but stuff like Fieldcraft and Eaters of the Dead remained (the last just in the fluff, but it was never represented properly in the TT rules).

Oh that sucks. They took out the good things about the kroot and made them weak. They were my favorite xenos in the 40k verse.

How about let's not take this to private messages, Snowman? This is an important issue.

First off your wrong to assume fluffrape is harmful. The context of that word is that the fluff was violated. Secondly many people are in fact not offended by it because it wasn't used in a harmful way. Mainly it is not aimed at anyone in a harmful manner. Third I am getting tired of you and people like you "calling it out" when you know it disrupt decent conversations.

I know I am not going to convince you to stop, but at least use the private message that I am doing right now. Conversations don't need to get ruin because you took offense over something.

Please, elaborate on how revising the fiction of an established setting is as much of a violation as what the word actually means. I would love to hear your justification for why normalizing the word is both not harmful and an appropriate word of comparison to changes in your space wizard simulator game.

Kroot don't work well for espionage, investigation and the like, because it's basically impossible to blend in with an alien in the group.

It's funny, because the TT Kroots regressed into Catachan Jungle Fighter clones (they have exactly the same stats as the old Catachans) with better guns. So if we go with the "FFG should follow the TT changes" thing then you can wave your Unnatural Strength goodbye with your Kroot. And at that point, they wouldn't really have a role humans couldn't fill.

Looking at Inquisitor's Kroot material , I don't see why Kroot should be problematic. When you have an Inquisitor saying "don't touch this guy", local authorities should generally pay heed to such a decree. Would there still be discontent, perhaps even hostility? Mobs? Unsanctioned abuse? Maybe. That's called RP potential.

(by the way, in the Inquisitor system, those 65 Strength in the profile are only minimally higher than that of a Veteran Guardsman)

How about let's not take this to private messages, Snowman? This is an important issue

I am 100% with you on the let's not use the R word thing but this I see no need to keep this going on the thread.

Because dealing with this issue privately will not solve anything. If people are forced to publicly defend their harmful language publicly they will either realize the harm they do and apologize or they'll double down and show themselves to be the terrible people they are.

Do not hide behind the veneer of 'polite conversation'. Normalizing r*pe is objectively harmful and no amount of pretend it isn't will make that not the case. "Nobody else was offended" is not a defense of harmful language, it is simply the privileged revealing their own unconsidered privilege. Behold:

It is not a important issue and frankly you should keep it in pm. At least respect the others who just want to have a conversation about the topic in the thread. Don't drag this out to disrupt others who want to have a good conversation because you got offended with a word. That is not fair to them.

Frankly I don't care what you think about the word fluffrape. I am not going to defend it. I am just telling you stop disrupting conversations over things that offend you because it is not right of you to disrupt conversations.

Also when you FFG web guys get around to reading this I am, for the record, opposed to your word filter asterisk maker. At least give use the option to turn it off.

A more reasonable poster has PMed me and brought to my attention that I may be coming across as aggressive and hostile, and that may put people on the defensive. I understand where (presumably) he's coming from,so let me spell this out as clearly as I possibly can.

Casually using the word 'r*pe' is an act of aggression.

I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but it is, and you don't get to define it the way that you choose to.

I'm not attacking anyone, simply asking you to examine your own position and really think about what you're saying. Here's an article laying out the basics of why it is a harmful, aggressive act, with links to more scholarly articles. You can find more by googling "using the word **** is not okay" (which is exactly how I found this one).

To be honest if a bigot came in and disrupt conversations over a word, then I would do the same thing to him/her as I had done to you cps. I just feel that you could had taken this to pm to voice your complaints instead of ruining conversations.

As for everyone else. Sorry for being a ass. I just got fed up with cps. This is my last post that is outside of this conversation.

You say that as if Unnatural stats were ever a good representation of the TT or GW's own fluff.

You will laugh, but I think they are . I mean, from a balance standpoint, they are decent, nicely setting a human athlete (Strength 40) and a Space Marine (Strength 40 with US4) apart in terms of "real" strength within the limits of the D100 system.

You will laugh, but I think they are . I mean, from a balance standpoint, they are decent, nicely setting a human athlete (Strength 40) and a Space Marine (Strength 40 with US4) apart in terms of "real" strength within the limits of the D100 system.

Shouldn't the Space Marine have a better chance at, say, bashing through a door than a human, though? That's one of my big issues with Unnatural Stats - they don't actually give their owner any advantage in tests, aside from DoS or draws, which is hardly what I'd call a good representation of "being better".

You will laugh, but I think they are . I mean, from a balance standpoint, they are decent, nicely setting a human athlete (Strength 40) and a Space Marine (Strength 40 with US4) apart in terms of "real" strength within the limits of the D100 system.

Shouldn't the Space Marine have a better chance at, say, bashing through a door than a human, though? That's one of my big issues with Unnatural Stats - they don't actually give their owner any advantage in tests, aside from DoS or draws, which is hardly what I'd call a good representation of "being better".

He does have a better chance because he can bash through doors without even taking tests as he has a high enough SB to simply crash the door without problem (higher SB translates into higher maximal pushing weight, so the Space Marine essentially pushes the locked door open). Or at least that's how we play it.

Unnaturals can be done better for sure. Though in my personal opinion they been pretty successful.

A space marine shouldn't even be testing to bash down a door that an unaugmented human has a roughly 50/50 shot of bashing down. How you would actually codify that is another matter.

Those two posts (113 and 114) in quick succession are a pretty good encapsulation of this issue. Both are correct with respect to how the system functions, but come to different conclusions on the utility of Unnatural Characteristics.

Actually the old dark heresy rules on unnaturals treated single test rolls like this. For unnatural x2 you treat it as +10 better, x3 is +20 better, and so on. In other words lets say the door was -10 to open. Space marine at x2 would treat it as a zero challenge while a normal human would treat it as -10 challenge. The space marine will have a easier time opening the door than the normal human.

For some reason they never applied that to Black Crusade which I feel was not the correct move for single test rolls. A +4 space marine should treat a -20 test as if it was a 0 test while a normal human with no unnatural must deal with that -20 test. Unnatural characteristics can only be improved using that method.

Those two posts (113 and 114) in quick succession are a pretty good encapsulation of this issue. Both are correct with respect to how the system functions, but come to different conclusions on the utility of Unnatural Characteristics.

Either the mechanic works - under any condition - or it does not. Applying pushing power is just as much of a workaround; would AtoMaki have done this for a human character, too? Probably not. But why? Not because it makes sense (I assume "okay roll STR" is pretty much a standard GM answer for a player going "can I force this open?"), but because the system is not supporting his interpretation.

Actually the old dark heresy rules on unnaturals treated single test rolls like this. For unnatural x2 you treat it as +10 better, x3 is +20 better, and so on. In other words lets say the door was -10 to open. Space marine at x2 would treat it as a zero challenge while a normal human would treat it as -10 challenge. The space marine will have a easier time opening the door than the normal human.

And I may often argue about how FFG ridiculously overexaggerated Marine abilities, but even I am saying that a simple +10 is not enough.

True. Just saying ... if you're just solving this on a narrative basis, why have stats at all?

Either the mechanic works - under any condition - or it does not. Applying pushing power is just as much of a workaround; would AtoMaki have done this for a human character, too? Probably not. But why? Not because it makes sense (I assume "okay roll STR" is pretty much a standard GM answer for a player going "can I force this open?"), but because the system is not supporting his interpretation.

Unless you have a human that has a Natural Strength 10 or more points higher than the Unnaturally Strong Space Marine.

Nice false equivalency. You can handle things narratively and have stats.

Your statement that mechanics either work or don't is also wrong. The d100 system has pretty defined spectrum where the game works, outside of which it breaks down significantly. Every system of mechanics has this issue.

My point was that regular people and SMs operate on completely different power levels. Physical challenges for normal humans are non-issues for SMs and you don't need mathematical rules to back that up. A narrative solution works fine.

Don't use the word **** to describe choices in artistic direction you don't agree with. Using the word **** for anything other than what the word actually means is not okay.

Don't use the word **** to describe choices in artistic direction you don't agree with. Using the word **** for anything other than what the word actually means is not okay.

To be clear, there is more than one definition of ****- an ex: Abusive and/or improper treatment (as in the **** of justice).

e; man, FFG's filter is overzealous. It starts with F and rhymes with maggot.

My point was that regular people and SMs operate on completely different power levels. Physical challenges for normal humans are non-issues for SMs and you don't need mathematical rules to back that up. A narrative solution works fine.

That is entirely a matter of interpretation. And exactly why we are having a ruleset in the first place.

I mean, if you're starting there, where do you stop? Do Eldar no longer have to roll their Agility tests? Battle Sisters no longer rolling for Willpower? Because the same argument could be made there, if you are truly applying this way of thinking across the board rather than limiting it to a single character type based on nothing but interpretation.

The d100 system may have its shortcomings, but it is capable of housing all sorts of characters without Unnatural characteristics, provided one scales them cleverly and utilises the full potential of traits for fine-tuning.

(call me naive if you will )

So can we agree on 40 + 2D10 for strength and toughness for Space Marines?

So can we agree on 40 + 2D10 for strength and toughness for Space Marines?

No.

Characters who are beyond 100 in a percentage dice game make boring characters as they only have 1% chance of failing. That is if you consider a natural roll of 100 to be a failure. If not then they will be successful in any roll they make. That is why we have unnatural characteristics as it still allows a chance of failure which makes it more interesting.