People keep repeating that about 40k xenos. The fact of the matter, though, is that all xeno races were invented by humans, and all info we have on them was written by humans. And that makes them inherently understandable, because the human mind is incapable of imagining something it cannot comprehend.

It's the "official GW line". Xenos are too alien to RP or bother very much with. It's also just another of the many things that makes the setting so attractive to people like myself, and the desire to keep things that way probably makes people like myself prone to repeating it.

But you are of course right. However, the same goes for intelligent swords in D&D, or Nurglings, possessed tanks & whatnot in 40K. My point here being that I very strongly suspect you too draw the line somewhere.

Frankly, I actually find the idea of 40k xenos being hard to play particularly preposterous, because what passes for human in 40k already operates on a pretty alien mindset from our contemporary perspective. If you can get into the mind of a superstitious bigot who accepts every command from his superiors as literal word of god enough to play him, you'll be fine playing a stuck up, pointy-eared guy who believes in destiny and is willing to commit any atrocity for the survival of his race.

Actually, I think that's a pretty good argument against xenos as PC material. My own group's first campaign ended up in large part being about figuring out how to be a human being in the setting, precisely because they're so alien to us. I'm most definitely not seeing the real aliens being easier to relate to, at least not with our kind of play style (but then, we're a bunch of EMO's ).

As I said earlier, though, I don't really have a problem with playable xenos as long as the assumptions, content and tone is kept separate from the other game books. Because I don't want what you want. I anti-want it.

It shouldn't be super-tricksy to do, though, assuming GW gets out of the way. Contrary to what Togath says (no slight intended), most of the race fluff is quite well-developed. A whole lot of the early material was written, intentionally or not, in a way that made it very RPG friendly. And besides that, the wargame has continually introduced new fluff elements with every update (and there's been a few by now), and there's the very fluff-heavy "enthusiast games". There might not be a 20-book game line's worth of fluff for each and every xenos race, but for the ones that have miniature armies there's easily both enough and the right kind of fluff for a stand alone RPG core with a couple of supplements for each of them.

People keep repeating that about 40k xenos. The fact of the matter, though, is that all xeno races were invented by humans, and all info we have on them was written by humans. And that makes them inherently understandable, because the human mind is incapable of imagining something it cannot comprehend.

It's the "official GW line". Xenos are too alien to RP or bother very much with. It's also just another of the many things that makes the setting so attractive to people like myself, and the desire to keep things that way probably makes people like myself prone to repeating it.

Yeah, it's not the first instance of GW being full of crap. I especially like how that didn't stop them from publishing a novel about Eldar recently.

But you are of course right. However, the same goes for intelligent swords in D&D, or Nurglings, possessed tanks & whatnot in 40K. My point here being that I very strongly suspect you too draw the line somewhere.

I've seen people play intelligent swords, AIs, daemonhosts (where the "-host" part was mostly out of mechanical convenience). My only concern is, is the thing being roleplayed able to engage the story in an interesting manner that's not spoiling the fun for the rest of the group. Considering this, I'd rather not let anyone play a Nurgling

Frankly, I actually find the idea of 40k xenos being hard to play particularly preposterous, because what passes for human in 40k already operates on a pretty alien mindset from our contemporary perspective. If you can get into the mind of a superstitious bigot who accepts every command from his superiors as literal word of god enough to play him, you'll be fine playing a stuck up, pointy-eared guy who believes in destiny and is willing to commit any atrocity for the survival of his race.

Actually, I think that's a pretty good argument against xenos as PC material. My own group's first campaign ended up in large part being about figuring out how to be a human being in the setting, precisely because they're so alien to us. I'm most definitely not seeing the real aliens being easier to relate to, at least not with our kind of play style (but then, we're a bunch of EMO's ).

I'm not saying they'd be easier to relate, just that I don't see them being particularly harder to relate. I mean, when I tell you I want to play a member of a doomed, highly psychic race that believes in his species' supremacy and is willing to commit any atrocity to maintain the status quo, am I talking about an Imperial Human or a Craftworld Eldar?

As I said earlier, though, I don't really have a problem with playable xenos as long as the assumptions, content and tone is kept separate from the other game books. Because I don't want what you want. I anti-want it.

It shouldn't be super-tricksy to do, though, assuming GW gets out of the way. Contrary to what Togath says (no slight intended), most of the race fluff is quite well-developed. A whole lot of the early material was written, intentionally or not, in a way that made it very RPG friendly. And besides that, the wargame has continually introduced new fluff elements with every update (and there's been a few by now), and there's the very fluff-heavy "enthusiast games". There might not be a 20-book game line's worth of fluff for each and every xenos race, but for the ones that have miniature armies there's easily both enough and the right kind of fluff for a stand alone RPG core with a couple of supplements for each of them.

Well, GW greenlit the playable xenos in RT, so I don't think it's much of a problem for them (at least as long as there's a chance to make money, 'cause that's how GW rolls).

Honestly, I really think Rogue Trader is the better game to include playable xenos. Wouldn't mind seeing them at some point in DH, but I don't think they're too good a fit for the tone of the DH games I've seen.

Why does it even have to be tied to a specific line ?

Why not publish a Xenos Compendium with options to create xenos player characters.

With small differences, this characters could be used for Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy, Black Crusade or even Only War (Deathwatch would be quite harder).

Also a general (not line specific) Psyker supplement would be nice, which streamlines Psy Rules over all published lines.

Actually, a new edition of the system that did all those things would be nice.

Oh wait, it's FFG & GW we're talking about. Fat chance of that lot not sacrificing playability for the sake of being ass-backwards about every single thing

Why does it even have to be tied to a specific line ?

Why not publish a Xenos Compendium with options to create xenos player characters.

With small differences, this characters could be used for Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy, Black Crusade or even Only War (Deathwatch would be quite harder).

Also a general (not line specific) Psyker supplement would be nice, which streamlines Psy Rules over all published lines.

Yeah, no can do. The balance is all over the place between the game lines, trying to create a "one size fits all" book for xenos and/or psykers will only aggravate the balance issues.

For this to work, we'd have to have unified 40k rules in the first place, with each current "game" being brought in line and only containing game-specific additions to the rules, like the new World of Darkness. Such a solution has it's pros and cons, but it's quite apparent FFG isn't interested in doing things this way.

Actually, a new edition of the system that did all those things would be nice.

Oh wait, it's FFG & GW we're talking about. Fat chance of that lot not sacrificing playability for the sake of being ass-backwards about every single thing

Now, man, that's just a mean thing to say.

I was really hoping that DH2.0 would had been that universal system to be honest. It would fix the compatibility issue and allow multiple races.

I was really hoping that DH2.0 would had been that universal system to be honest. It would fix the compatibility issue and allow multiple races.

That would have been an interesting direction for the new edition. The only possible downside I see, we would be stuck with the core rules for much longer. By which I mean, the main strength of the current setup (each "setting" being it's own game complete with all core rules) is that it allowed FFG to make rather big changes to the core system with each major release - this cost the game some points in backwards compatibility, but also kept introducing new ideas to the ruleset that could have been incorporated into earlier games with some work.

If DH2 were to become the one and only 2e core game, with other current games being eventually repackaged as supplements, FFG would be forced to keep rules updates within the medium of the errata - and FFG has been historically much more conservative with the errata than it was with new games when it came to changing rules.

On the upside - streamlined system, not having to remember how Profit Factor differs from Influence differs from Infamy differs from Logistics, not having to wonder how adopting BC/OW skills will screw up advancement tables from previous systems, not beating myself up over trying to fit DW psychic powers in a BC/OW compatible mold without making them too weak in the face of DW-tier enemies... yeah, lots of upsides this solution has, as Lord Inquisitor Yodus would say

Now, man, that's just a mean thing to say.

Who, little old me?

Semi-seriously, though, FFG & GW are the ones being mean here. I'm just not so crippled by misdirected politeness that I can force myself to pretend otherwise.

I do realise it's all about cores, because they sell better. But at some point the quality of the products starts to suffer as a consequence - a point FFG & GW nailed with RT years ago already.

Besides, if this really was about frequent revisions/a living system, that goal could be achieved far easier from a customer/player standpoint with regular new releases of the core, with a collected special rules supplement for each line. Moreover, this far, far more sane approach would require people to buy more books over all to stay up to date. Basically: everyone wins.

Soo... From where I'm sitting it's either a case of the stupids or the meanies, and I'm pretty sure neither FFG nor GW are stupid.

Now, man, that's just a mean thing to say.

Who, little old me?

Semi-seriously, though, FFG & GW are the ones being mean here. I'm just not so crippled by misdirected politeness that I can force myself to pretend otherwise.

I do realise it's all about cores, because they sell better. But at some point the quality of the products starts to suffer as a consequence - a point FFG & GW nailed with RT years ago already.

I think you and I aren't going to come to an agreement here, neither on the subject of politeness nor on the quality of Rogue Trader.

Besides, if this really was about frequent revisions/a living system, that goal could be achieved far easier from a customer/player standpoint with regular new releases of the core, with a collected special rules supplement for each line. Moreover, this far, far more sane approach would require people to buy more books over all to stay up to date. Basically: everyone wins.

Soo... From where I'm sitting it's either a case of the stupids or the meanies, and I'm pretty sure neither FFG nor GW are stupid.

Yeah, I'm not seeing that. FFG isn't Apple, it won't goad customers into buying stuff they'll know will become obsolete within a year or two. Roleplayers like their books to last them a long time.

That picture is Heresy. Just like few pictures i found from DeviantArt today.

also few more:

Here

Here

I think I'm going to introduce my skull to my power drill. "SCREEEEEEEE!!!"

DH with Xenos player characters? The DH setting is (primary) about investigation, intrigue and stealth within the core of imperial society. Using Xenos Players just makes no sense and I think It would be no fun at all. You would not be able to socially interact or keep your cover for long. In addition your group would have permanent trouble with authorities and the public.

If you really want other "races" in your DH group think about all the possible abhuhmans as "races" together with problems of racism etc.

Ogryns, Ratlings, Afriel Strain, Gland War Veteran, (Squats?!), etc.: could fit well into an DH group and would make sense fluff wise. Sektor & Setting specific stable Abhumans: FFG could introduce sector specific stable abhuman strains which are specific to the new Sektor in DH2.0.

Astartes: make sense on high power lvl/throne agent games (DW&Greyknights)

Daemon hosts: could be a kind of demonic race in radical groups.

Xenos tainted humans: xenos version of the daemon host. Human mutants with xenos traits. There are some examples and even rules how to genecraft xenos traits into player characters in DH/RT

Navigators: Well they seem to be an abhuman race in itself.

Psykers: stable mutants but maybe not a race in itself.

Setting wise playable xenos characters make only sense in a setting like RT or in an xenos rpg itself. Own small scale Eldar, Tau and maybe even Ork rpgs could sell well as kind of specialist rpg games within the 40k RPG line.

Please not an own Ork rpg :-)

As much as the idea makes me laugh - this WILL end in absolute chaos...mh...maybe as a supplement for BC ?

Please not an own Ork rpg :-)

As much as the idea makes me laugh - this WILL end in absolute chaos...mh...maybe as a supplement for BC ?

Yeah it would probably the Comic Relief of the lines. That does not mean that it would not be interesting for mini campagins. BC could work, maybe even an small OW addon - using all the war centric rules and vehicles would be nice for an ork group. .

Please not an own Ork rpg :-)

As much as the idea makes me laugh - this WILL end in absolute chaos...mh...maybe as a supplement for BC ?

BC? 1) Orks are incapable of falling to chaos in the current fluff. 2) On a more serious note we already have the fanmade Deffwotch! where orks convince thei mperium they're really deathwatch space marines and go nuts.

Personally not interested in playing xeno's, and even abhumans are rather boring. I'm GM'ing Only War and the Ogryn is horrendous. He RP's well and plays it well, it's the race itself that's bad from an RPG standpoint. Same goes for most xenos and it ruins their mystique for me. Not to mention, they always end up as humans. "I'm an eldar!" no, you're a human with different tech and higher then average agility. I wouldn't mind if they did make a xeno RPG, i just wouldn't buy it and let others have their fun.

I find the orks the most alien in behaviour and belief, but that's just me.

BC? 1) Orks are incapable of falling to chaos in the current fluff. 2) On a more serious note we already have the fanmade Deffwotch! where orks convince thei mperium they're really deathwatch space marines and go nuts.

Personally not interested in playing xeno's, and even abhumans are rather boring. I'm GM'ing Only War and the Ogryn is horrendous. He RP's well and plays it well, it's the race itself that's bad from an RPG standpoint. Same goes for most xenos and it ruins their mystique for me. Not to mention, they always end up as humans. "I'm an eldar!" no, you're a human with different tech and higher then average agility. I wouldn't mind if they did make a xeno RPG, i just wouldn't buy it and let others have their fun.

I find the orks the most alien in behaviour and belief, but that's just me.

You've obviously never been to a football match.

edit: \/ I'm pretty sure there's been Nurgle orks, too.

You've obviously never been to a football match.

Or collected Khorne Boyz (it was a thing). The recent fluff about that stuff is in the talking Necron pile: it never happened. Though I'll admit I have completely embraced the idea that my Blood Bowl Orc Cheerleaders are skrawny boyz with fleshy-squigs pierced to their chests

You've obviously never been to a football match.

edit: \/ I'm pretty sure there's been Nurgle orks, too.

If you mean american football, then no. We hardly play that in europe. Football football, yes, i have. But to find fighting so much fun, have no concept of what peace is and no understanding why the guys you're fighting would rather not fight is rather alien to me.

The problem for me is that the aliens always end up as humans in behaviour and motivation, and it ruins the mystique. Sometimes the unknown is more enticing then the answer...

Simsum, I know about them. Downloaded a bunch of old warhammer stuff awhile ago and read over and was enthralled by the khorne stormboys however they are now discared as so much else. Sad, but that is the way of things.

If you mean american football, then no. We hardly play that in europe. Football football, yes, i have. But to find fighting so much fun, have no concept of what peace is and no understanding why the guys you're fighting would rather not fight is rather alien to me.

No, that sounds like a football hooligan to me.

If you mean american football, then no. We hardly play that in europe. Football football, yes, i have. But to find fighting so much fun, have no concept of what peace is and no understanding why the guys you're fighting would rather not fight is rather alien to me.

[...]

Like MaliciousOnion said, what you describe pretty much sounds like a football hooligan. A regular run-of-the-mill football hooligan.

As reprehensible or crazy as such a mindset may be, it really shouldn't be alien to you. You want alien, try the Pre-Ward Necrons.

Pre-Ward Necrons perfectly showcase the problems with truly alien aliens: they end up boring, one note villains because the only way we can make something seem truly alien-thinking is by not showing how they think at all. That's also why Lovecraft's favorite adjective was "unspeakable".

Pre-Ward Necrons perfectly showcase the problems with truly alien aliens: they end up boring, one note villains because the only way we can make something seem truly alien-thinking is by not showing how they think at all. That's also why Lovecraft's favorite adjective was "unspeakable".

I genuinely never considered pre-Wardian Necrons boring, though. They were faceless horrors that advanced in total silence, unspeakable darkness encroaching.. unspeakingly.

While directly interacting with them as individuals would obviously be boring as hell, seeing as how they don't talk, there's a lot of potential for the circumstances around them, whether it's exploring a Tomb-Monolith or boarding one of their ships or fiddling with a Necrodermis MIU Interface.

I think we only need one faceless horde of communication devoid xenos, really.

I think we only need one faceless horde of communication devoid xenos, really.

Sign me up with this. I agree more than 100%.

I genuinely never considered pre-Wardian Necrons boring, though. They were faceless horrors that advanced in total silence, unspeakable darkness encroaching.. unspeakingly.

I'm not a fan of Mat Ward's fluff, but it's worth noting that he didn't invent 'talking Necrons'. He lifted that concept from an old short story called Deux Ex Mechanicus , written by Andy Chambers (originally published in Inferno! and reprinted in the short-story collection Let The Galaxy Burn ). It's about- spoiler warning! - an Adeptus Mechanicus excavation that is infiltrated by a disguised Necron Lord, who has an absurdly melodramatic personality. Ward basically latched onto this concept and dialed it up to '11'...