My group is heading toward the interlude of our first play through of Shadow Rune and we're enjoying it quite a bit. As the Overlord, I've managed to win 2 of the 3 Act 1 quests, so I'm certainly not suffering. Even so, something is bothering me:

The majority of quest reinforcement mechanics in Descent truly favor large monsters. It's unfortunate.

The reinforcement mechanic in "Gathering Foretold"/encounter2 is the only one I've read that makes sense for both large (4-6sq), medium(2sq) and small monster(1sq) types.

-Cursain

I pulled the above quote from a different thread, but it succinctly sums up my concerns. I find that, as the Overlord, I rarely see reason to choose a "medium" or "small" based monster group over the "large" stuff (Shadow Dragons, Ettins, Merriods, etc.). Not only are these creatures powerful--tons of HP, double grey or black defense dice, abilities like Reach, Throw, and Shadow--they are also massive, taking up 4-6 spaces. In a game where blocking is paramount, how can small monsters hope to compete? Compund this with the reinforcement rules allowing only 1 monster to return (more often than not), why would I ever opt to bring back a solitary Goblin Archer when I can instead resurrect a FIRE BELCHING DRAGON?

... which also leads me to ask: When I have the option to choose a Shadow Dragon group, when would I ever NOT choose a Shadow Dragon group?? But I digress ...

One could even say the issue is again compounded by setup, where I'm often instructed to place my open group on the tile adjacent to the hero's entrance. No matter how I place my beasties, the heroes inevitably spend fatigue and unleash hell before I'm able to react. Only larger monsters have a hope of surviving this unavoidable onslaught. Groups of small beasts are cut to pieces--no where to run, no where to hide.

Naturally, there are exceptions. With their speed 5, my open group of Goblin Archers did very well for me in Masquerade Ball, for instance. Not sure I fired a single arrow, mind you. It was all about turn and burn, search and escape. When I need speed for a grab and go mission (exiting with the Shadow Key, for example), only then do I cast a passing glance at the smaller monsters. Their combat prowess is rarely a consideration, however.

I've scanned ahead and examined the reinforcement rules for the remainder of Shadow Rune and it doesn't appear to improve much (overall). Would it not make sense to scale reinforcements to the size of the monster? For example: Place 1 large monster OR 2 medium monsters OR 3 small monsters? I realize this would require adding the distinction between small/medium/large, but you get the idea.

I guess my issue boils down to a lack of meaningful choice. As the Overlord, I'm not so much presented with legitimate options ... moreso the illusion of choice. The "optimal" decision is often obvious, and not because I'm a gifted strategist and tactical mastermind. The available open groups, the objectives, the maps themselves; if I'm gunning for a win, I feel pigeonholed more often than not. "Man, I'd really love to try THIS monster group, but if I want to win, the obvious choice is *INSERT LARGE BASED MONSTER GROUP HERE*.

Admittedly, I'm still pretty new to this gig. I'm hoping for some insight from veteran Overlords. Does this situation improve? How does Labyrinth of Ruin stack up in this regard? Do the expansions change things at all? Or, best of all, am I simply flat out WRONG? I could be way off base. If so, please set me straight!

If it helps: We have only the 2nd edition base game (Lair of the Wyrm is en route from the eBays). It should also be noted that I have no intention of purchasing the Conversion Kit, as I intend to keep my collection 100% 2nd edition. I love variety as much as the next guy, but I'm not convinced that the elements introduced by the CK are balanced, nor do I wish to get caught up tracking down proxies or ... more likely ... the original models. I'm an unrepentant completionist. I've decided it best to avoid tempation.

Thanks for reading!

You've got it absolutely correct. There is no reason to use anything other than Shadow Dragons or Merroids on any map. You could pick a smaller monster, but it's just going to get ripped to pieces on the first turn the party can reach it, then you only get to reinforce 20% of that groups strength, as opposed to reinforcing 50% strength of a large monster group. Some people might tell you that some maps you need medium creatures to block movement, but they just die in a hurry and tie up the reinforcement lane.

You seem already well read and intelligent in your choices. You're using small monsters correctly for missions like the masquerade. They can also benefit you when you need to attack something other than the party, like killing villages in Castle Daerion. Use something quick and numerous to do lots of damage and kill targets that can't fight back before the party reaches them. You've also already learned to avoid the creation kit, which is going to save you potential headaches down the road. I don't know what else I could tell you, you've figured out the winning formula.

I can vouch for goblins sometimes being useful. You can shoot and run and make that party waste time chasing you around, or chip away at their backs if they leave you alone. This works in maps where there are multiple paths to an objective, where the goblins can scatter in different directions when they are reached. Obviously though, don't bother reinforcing them if they get caught.

Also, I like your suggestions for increasing reinforcement to balance the monster selection, and I hope FFG eventually does sometime like this to address the many balance issues with this game. The only choice Descent presents you when picking an open group is if you want to win or just get rolled over. Situations where a Shadow Dragon isn't going to be your best bet are rare.

The conversion kit offers allot more as far as really good small monster, monster groups. In my current campaign I have been really reluctant to play large monsters. For starters, speed. I might only get two, but Deep Elves have a speed of five. Range is big as well. If I can kill my heroes before they can get to me, I will. Medusas are great for stalling them and Sorcerers are good for raw damage and quick kills. Master has undieing as well. Woot!

But that's my add for the CK, even if you want to keep pure on this.

My Heroes also have Valyndra's Bane. My healer gets an extra yellow dice of damage for attacking a large beast. I have had to get creative with my monster groups due to this.

Admittedly, I'm still pretty new to this gig. I'm hoping for some insight from veteran Overlords. Does this situation improve? How does Labyrinth of Ruin stack up in this regard? Do the expansions change things at all? Or, best of all, am I simply flat out WRONG? I could be way off base. If so, please set me straight!

I love LoR. The balance seems to play up really well. Both parties have to work harder. Reinforcements are really REALLY strict. Having smaller monsters for your open group might be good due to the fact that isn't the group you are getting back. There is allot more room to play.

In Labyrinth of Ruin, the OL has the chance of obtaining "Splig's Revenge" which lets the OL replace a goblin with Splig. This REALLY encourages goblins of some kind. Oh, and it has saved my bacon more then once! One of our best games was his surprise appearance. It was fantastic!

Small monsters have their use. Allot of the base game sets are kind of blah. The other monsters to follow have been pretty awesome and I really like them. You said you are getting LotW soon. There are great monsters in there and the rumor deck adds a nice flavor. Allot of nice toys fro heroes and OL. Very much worth the buy, in my humble opinion.

It's the point, and i too think the reinforcement system has got some problems.

But, it looks like with time, it will change.

the new basic 2 cards play more with few monsters (since the number is important)

Same thing with the infector deck

and finally lieutenants, because replacing 1 master and 1 minion monster, sometimes more, is a high price and is better with small monsters, and also some cards play too with the number of the monsters (see the last preview of the Fallen Elite)

but I do hope reinforcement rule will be changed in future campaigns.

To answer the original question on when would you not choose Shadow dragons, I wouldn't use them if I was facing a lot of heroes who could attack from non-adjacent squares because now they will just tear right through them. I probably also be reluctant in playing against Steelhorns in tight spaces with massive dragons.

I often get some good use out of my smaller to medium monsters. Bargheists are great example because I usually just use their howl ability rather than attack. If you set your defense up right you often can get a full group of gheists to get a full round of double howls in.

I won't disagree that there is a lot of incentive to include one large monster group. I think the game is suppose to do that. Each level is suppose to be a challenge. This is not suppose to be an easy game. Considering how the small creatures can get chewed up without dishing out a lot of damage (Zombies and Goblins come to mind) it is a fair trade. At the same time though I use zombies and goblins to do other things for me that they are good at. Not every creature in this game is meant to fight.

Thanks for the responses, all. I won't quote everybody so as to avoid a mighty WALL-O-TEXT, but I'll address what I can.

AltWren, you seem to be on the same page as I, at least in terms of my initial impressions. Large monster groups aren't so much a choice as a necessity, and small monster groups are very niche in their application. At least, that's how it appears having only the base game to work with, and granted, I'm still very new to Descent (have yet to reach Act II).

I'd love to see small monsters reinforce at a faster rate. I play the small stuff to introduce a "horde" aspect to the encounter, but that never comes to pass as they die fast and reappear so painfully slow. Even if it were a random roll: Roll a gray die (or whatever). Reinforce small or medium monsters from 1 group equal to the shields rolled. It would be balanced by the fact that you may recieve NO reinforcement (blank result). Just another idea.

Kunzite, I appreciate your enthusiasm for the game. The CK is tempting, but I'm definitely commited to keeping our game pure 2nd edition.

Which isn't to say I'm TOTALLY opposed to it. If FFG were to re-release all the 1st edition models in one easy-to-buy package, I'd likely find myself dropping a pay cheque on it.

Despite my concerns, I'm really enjoying the game and I think it has a TON of potential. I love dungeon crawls and I've always been the "GM-type", so Overlord fits me like a glove. It could very well be a case of the base monsters being somewhat lackluster. If I had more provocative small and medium beasts to choose from, I'd definitely be inclined to consider them. But as it stands ... Goblins, Zombies, Flesh Moulders, Spiders ... they're such a hard sell. I often consider the Barghest at least once per setup (forcing the heroes to burn fatigue is a glorious thing, to be sure), but I rarely commit to them.

The Splig "surprise" certainly piques my interest, as that alone would warrant a serious reevaluation of Goblins in general. Here's hoping they introduce something similar for the other small groups. If Shelob were to suddenly appear from a group of Cave Spides, the heroes would drop a brick!

Rugal, great to hear. More positive changes. Cards that play better with numerically superior monster groups would be welcome, and you're correct about the new lieutenant packs--I'd much rather drop a master and minion Zombie than a master and minion Ettin to summon a lieutenant. At least I'd still have a few zombies left to make use of ...

... which leads me to ask, centralx, what EXACTLY are zombies good for? 'Cause I haven't figured that one out yet. Good point re: Shadow Dragons, though. If the heroes can avoid Shadow, that negates a big part of what makes the Dragon amazing (plus, it makes Fire Breath all the less effective).

As I've said, Barghest rarely make my cut, but they're always a consideration. Maybe I should bring them off the bench more often.

I agree that not all monsters are meant to fight. I use Goblins to run their asses off and occasionally shoot (though mostly run). I use master Moulders to heal large monsters; haven't found a great use for the minions. Master Cave Spiders can be a real nuisance with the web, though again, the minions are a bit underwhelming. And Zombies. Well. I'm hoping you can point out at least one redeeming aspect, 'cause I'm a HUGE zombie fan. In my limited experience, without numbers and rapid reinforcement, Zombies barely even rate as fodder.

One thing I *have* noticed as I examine the Act II quests: I'm not so often forced to place an open monster group directly in front of the heroes as they enter the map--fresh faced and full to the brim with delicious fatigue. I'll definitely be more likely to consider groups of small/medium monsters if I'm able to better control their placement, thus allowing me to dictate how they approach the heroes, mixing them in with larger threats for a dose of target saturation and hit-and-run opportunities. In most of the quests I've played thusfar, the setup dictates the match-ups, allowing the heroes to confront and dispatch my monsters at their leisure.

I'm also looking forward to the larger tiles in Labyrinth of Ruin. Fighting on tiles the size of a broom closet forces the OL to consider larger monsters for no-brainer blocking purposes. Larger tiles make cat and mouses games far more interesting, and will force the heroes to be somewhat stingy with their fatigue.

In this case, I would encourage the other expansions. Fire Imps in LotW are a great small group. Though they die easy, they are also very good at moving around and getting tasks done faster then the heroes can respond. Hybrid Sentinels are strong, small monsters. If you can abuse "Pray on the Weak" ability, then they can set the heroes back.

The large spiders from LoR are a great monster group. The small monster group from LoR isn't great, but the green dice on it makes it a hard hitter in act one. A VERY nice act one monster.

There is a new set coming out soon. Trollfen. The monsters in that group seem fantastic.

If reinforcements is an issue you are having, then take matters into your own hands. Go Warlord card class. Level three skill lets you reinforce a monster group up to group limits. Warlord is VERY powerful, to a fault.

Yes, Kunzite is right !

Hybrids sentinels are maybe the better "small" monsters, and looks like futur harpies are really powerfull too.

The Trollfens Harpies look amazing, with Flock and Swarm and speed 5. Hybrid Sentinels ... black defense die, Fire Breath (!), Fly, Prey on the Weak ... they'll definitely be a favorite. Fire Imps are fun, if only to run into the midst of the heroes and explode (plus speed 5, bring me more speed 5). Plus, they get two masters for additional double yellow fun.

All great, each one a good reason to continue ignoring the base game small/medium monster groups, which is a shame. But at least the large monsters will have some competition.

I really do hope the expansion mechanics make the base game small monsters worth considering. "Splig's Revenge" is a great start, and that alone makes me think FFG is aware that some of the 2nd edition beasties need a little lovin'. As it stands, there is rarely a reason to choose a pack of Flesh Moulders over two Ettins. I really do hope that changes. As a gamer, the more legitimate choices I'm presented with, the more agonizing the decision ... and decision-making is often the heart and soul of a great board game.

I have been tempted to use Flesh Molders in "Web of Power" and might in my next play of it. The heal ability is pretty good when you have heroes doing serious damage on something you need to protect. The problem would be, though, is in the event the heroes murder all of your open group in that quest, you don't get them back with reinforcements. But, then again, you, as the OL, set the tempo for that quest. If you really focus on getting Ariad's rite going then the heroes will have no choice BUT to worry about her, forcing them to ignore other monsters (this is the quest where we had SURPRISE! Splig throw a warrior into a den of spiders with no escape because I took Goblin Witchers. Talk about a fun group!).

Bargheist are always a winner for me, if not for flavor. My happy puppies always seem to get the job done, even if it's just making the hero's ears bleed (howl). Remember to move them up to where they are in howling range and then back up. Force the heroes to expend fatigue or actions to attack.

I don't like using Zombies as an open group, but any time I have been forced to use them, they have been invaluable. Grab is beast. And they hit pretty good for weak things. Never under estimate status effects. I have had heroes die from them.

Deek, I am also OLing my 1st campaign of Descent and have just played the 1st Act 2 Quest which I lost, my group and I enjoy Descent as a relaxing game between fiercely competitive figure games, for me, to use the large monsters regularly would encourage them to optimise to defeat the monsters from range with Blast & Ranged attacks thereby circumventing the monsters combat advantages (Fire Breath, Shadow & Sweep etc) so for me chosing monsters include the question of what the players can defeat most easily.

I use Flesh Moulders to support my large monsters as they have a ranged attack which my group dislike but mostly so that I can get the Master Flesh Moulder with Heal to keep the large monsters going this worked spectacularly well in Death on the Wing encounter 2. The party now go out of their way to kill the Master Flesh Molder before they go after the large monsters.

So I have found that small and medium monsters need to be considered.

I have found that some of the Quests are foot races between the players and monsters were speed or movement effect (Flying or Scamper) are more important than the fighting power of large monsters so selection of your monsters should be done with reference to the OLs victory conditions.

In the end I feel that your monster choice should reflect the playing style of both you and your party.

I agree that usually it's better to choose large monsters, but sometimes I find it easier to move with small monsters than large one.

Especally when you have 4 heros and summon stones on the board. Large monsters cannot expand and they stay stuck in the back, not using their entire movements and attacking the tanks instead of weak heros...

So I try to have both of them on the board to keep my options open.

Morcamarth, I'm very much the same. I play a lot of Warmachine and Hell Dorado and it's a nice distraction, pushing unpainted plastic around with no tapes or dice math. I'm also a big fan of RPGs but I don't have the time for pen-and-paper anymore. Descent is a great stand-in.

I'm not too bad off so far as ranged hate goes, mostly Jain with a crazy bow that can shoot through models. Luckily, she's only 8 health so I can swat her down easy if I commit to it. The heroes do have a pair of serious blockers, though, including a Hexer in Rune Armor with a Rune weapon for black + gray defense and 12 health. And double hex tokens. MEH. The other major issue tends to be the healer who can stun adjacent minion monsters AND an entire monster group, forcing me to decide between attacking and running away. She's becoming a real issue. There's an OL card that allows me to remove condition effects from a monster group. I may have to give it a second look.

Kunzite, Web of Power must be a LoR quest? Oddly, I find I'm a bit more open minded with my choices when I have no reinforcements. If I'm not concerned with who gets the coveted reinforement spot each turn, I'm more inclined to consider small/medium groups for pure utility and numbers, especially if setup allows me to deploy them safely and control their exposure to the heroes. If I'm forced to plop them down as a 1st turn welcome mat, however, I'm always choosing large.

That said, I love the master Moulder. Healing a large 12+ health beast makes for sad heroes. Really, it's his entourage that skew his usefulness. Minion Moulders are really hard to justify, in my limited experience. Mend is borderline pointless. I wish they inflicted some form of condition with their ranged attack. The Cave Spiders are in the same boat, but worse, as the master Spider has to be adjacent for his Web to work. Great way to drain a hero action or two, but hard to justify the reinforcement unless he's the only one in the queue. If his Web had a longer range, or was a ranged ability you could shoot, place as a token, effecting all spaces adjacent to (and including) the token? Seems to me they should have some sort of movement bonus, as well ... I mean ... SPIDERS . They can crawl on ANYTHING, even upside down. But meh.

Race quests definitely favor the speed 4/5 monsters, especially if the heroes are canny with thier placement, denying large monster expansion. I use Goblin Archers for this, but I'm looking forward to a few new speed 5 options from the expansions.

I can see Zombies being useful mixed in with other monster types. They'll almost certainly be overlooked, allowing them to land a Grab or two. If they're forced to face the heroes alone, on the other hand ... ugh. Of course, I'd never choose them as a open group on purpose, but sometimes they're on the roster and you just gotta deal.

Bagdad, good point. My heroes are definitely getting smarter with thier placement and denial of large monster movement. With many of the tiles in Shadow Rune being so small and narrow, I'm glad they don't have familiars or stones or whatever to make my life that much more difficult.

I found smaller monsters a lot more effective when playing a two player campaign. As most of the missions involve moving a token somewhere around the board rather than killing heroes, it's harder for heroes to try stop a lot of fast moving monsters on their own. They just don't get enough actions.

One important thing to understand is that the small/medium units are generally supports. There's the flesh moulders who heal, the goblin archers who are your primary range, the spiders poison (very deadly against heroes with low strength), the zombies grab and spread disease, etc. They are not usually meant to stand alone, but support the large monsters, who are your front line heavy hitters. But again, it always depends on the quest. Large monsters just don't have the mobility you need for some quests, as has already been mentioned.

As the elite spider's web ability has been mentioned a number of times, I will say that it is made for small corridors. And since spiders often appear in the spider's lair tile, the elite is generally perfectly positioned. The more you play, you'll figure out little tricks and gimmicks for each monster besides their basic attacks and health.

-Daggon

Another thing to remember is that a large monster's utility is greatly reduced if there are no reinforcements for the quest.

The short answer is: when the situation calls for it. Which is pretty often.

Technically, the same logic applies to the inverse (when NOT to use small monsters). It just so happens that most situations that arise will be some derivative of a race against the heroes. Objectives that lend themselves well to path blocking, reinforcement munchkining, and terrain hopping are great for Large Monsters.

The long answer is: I think they're overrated, personally . Too often do Overlords default to the big guys without thought to the specifics of the situations they find themselves in. If your reinforcement options are nil, you need a much better reason to put all your eggs in 1-2 baskets. If the heroes don't have strong AoE, you benefit from spreading out their attacks among multiple individual squares. If one hero is wielding Valyndra's Bane , your whole group might get wasted in the first turn, size and girth be damned. And finally (and most importantly), the subtle nuances of the dynamics between heroes in the context of the encounter (and the entire quest) must be considered. The Overlord must be constantly reevaluating the state of things and planning several moves ahead based on that evaluation. Is this encounter about speed? About passing tests? Protecting a LT.? How mobile are the heroes? How far can they get on their first turn if they burn hot? How many attacks can they make and how much damage is that likely to do? Do their monster kills trigger extra attacks? What's your hand like? What does your deck look like? Do they have a lot of Pierce? Where am I allowed to place my monsters? How will affect the next encounter? What will the answers to these questions be 3 turns from now?

Don't be fooled into thinking that because they're larger, they do more damage and are more durable. Dragon Hybrids Sentinels (Small) have a ton of defense, a decent amount of health, good damage, and awesome abilities. Kobolds are absolutely devastating to hero mobility (they are so MANY of them!) and they have the potential to do a crap ton of damage (harpies are in this boat too). Medusa are a favorite of mine for halting hero movement if you can start them far enough away (Like in the Masquerade Ball , which is awesome cause scary snake women fit the theme). Even goblin archers are a good pick if you've got the terrain for it - they can usually hit heroes from outside Move Action range. And sorcerers ? Thats some serious DPS, baby. Shades , Ferroxes , even Dark Priests ... I've found an ideal use for all of them, given enough consideration and discretion. If you're going Magus spec (now that Warlord has been "rebalanced"), Unholy Ritual gives you another reason to maximize boots-on-the-ground over consolidated power.

It's more about playing to the situation than anything else. If a small monster can give you a big advantage (which is more often you might think), don't be afraid to construct your strategy around that - rather than just throwing a bunch of brickwalls up and hoping the dice go your way.

Jee

Could not have said it better myself, Jee. I would love to hear about your use for Dark Priests as I have been eyeballing them for a while now, but have not used them. Something else has always seems to be a better pick.

Yes, I do agree they don't see a lot of use. But sometimes ... you find that reason.

There was a time when I was facing a party that, through the churning amalgamations of choices and various game events, ended up being extremely vulnerable to a fatigue starvation strat. A couple of the heroes were 3 Speeders, and others had expensive abilities that they specced heavily around. They were a freakin' force to be reckoned with and were willing to pay a high fatigue usage cost for their power. On a hunch, I put Dark Priests and Barghest Hounds together on a quest where monster placement made it possible for the former to survive the first round (I can't remember which - The Shadow Vault maybe?). The combo was devastating to them. I had a 3rd monster group and used Golems as tanks while my other guys sat behind them and devoured all their fatigue. When the Golems went down, I could do fatigue hit-and-runs because without fatigue, they couldn't keep up and still have enough attack actions. Eventually they all took rest actions simultaneously and bum-rushed my mod squad. It was a good response play, but by then it was too late.

I only got away with that madness once. Afterwards, their scout grabbed some kinda "move through enemy figures" ability and they were always conscious to nuke fatigue killers first. My poor Ferroxes didn't fare well in the next round.

Had their situation been slightly different, I'm not sure it would have worked. It was highly tailored to the landscape but frankly, it should always be that way. Lotta times that means big monsters are your go-to guys. Sometimes it doesn't.

Jee

Although I am new to the game, nicely said Jee.

I have found the scamper ability on the goblin archers invaluable for the 'racing' type quests where you have to pick up tokens and carry them to a location. Moving through characters with a total of 10 points in two actions makes them very hard to catch up to.

You have made me want to get some descent 1st edition stuff now!

That's fantastic! I was going to do that with Ferrox and shades (in the same encounter) when I realized, while in the quest, only the masters had Leach in each group and everyone, except my healer (who is somehow wielding Valandera's Bane... Somehow...), had really good might. I just starting to hit things. Ferrox are a surprisingly great group. Very powerful. Gray, gray def. dice is nothing to scoff at. Shades are equally as good. Our lonely mage had to go and deal with them all by himself. They are a powerhouse team.

Thanks to our healer wielding that ridiculous sword, I have found a great use for both ranged and for small beasts. Mostly out of necessity. In a way it has opened my eyes to much better things.

Rfisha, you should. The combos and abilities for the monsters in the CK are pretty awesome. I don't have all the D1 stuff, but we do well with proxies.

Yes, the conversion kit is amazing. It's fun, versatile, and makes me feel less bad about blowing a fortune on Descent 1st Edition. I highly recommend it . If you don't have all the figurines, you can just substitute other games' stuff or you can start collecting piece-meal via ebay.

Valyndra's Bane might as well be Amoracchius . That weapon is an endless source of righteous frustration for me. A note to Overlords who have yet to play Lair of Wyrm - you must win the Act I Rumor Quest or you will be choosing Golems on every encounter possible from there on out.

Really? The healer? Was their warrior playing One-Fist?

Jee

Really? The healer? Was their warrior playing One-Fist?

Jee

Umm... I really don't know why. Nanok in the warrior. Oh! That's right... ~.~ He needs his other hand for shield slam. In my current game i feel like I am playing with three warriors, one being ranged. The warrior, healer and scout all hit really hard. I have to choose my monster groups so carefully. Speed and straight is invaluable. I have also learned the value of range. I am kind of grateful "web of power" failed. ^.^;; hehe.

Just picked up first edition base game for $100. I bought the CK in anticipation and there are some strong beasts in there!

Does anyone know of any good places to get proxies as the expansion sets are really expensive