Our most recent episode gets eeeeeevil, GamerNation.

We dwell on the Dark Side of the Force tonight, and how to balance it properly in your game, as well as good ideas for long-term consequences of walking the black.

Pepper in some solid listener questions, a Herglic-rific skill monkey, a trip to Watto’s for some restraining bolts, and some excellent Fragments and Transmissions from the Rim – and it’s a show that will make your lightsabers tingle.

So grab your Sith Holocrons, folks, cross your legs in very angry meditation, and learn if yoooouuuuu might be a darksider – right now, on YOUR Order 66 Podcast.

You can access this episode on iTunes or directly from the feed: http://feeds.feedburner.com/Order66

(Direct Download Link: feedproxy.google.com/~r/Order66/~3/nIZ7oGLJkBk/episode18.mp3)

Enjoy!

Peace, Love, and Good Gaming,

GMC

You made my day with your call on some weapon qualities being triggered even on failure if there were enough advantages. The grenade example sold me. Thanks!

mmmmm Dark Side of the Force.

Sexy. And awesome. Just sayin

@whafrog - BIGGEST mistake I see new GMs making. It's very representative of the "binary results" mindset this system has worked to break.

@Shadai - Why... thank you. We've also had some suggestions on how to "represent" alternate Force Traditions. Any interest in that from you all?

None of my players have taken Force users yet, but it would still be interesting to think about.

I wouldn't mind. I have different thoughts on the force then your average Star Wars fan. Like I can write pages about Light vs Dark side and how its not as black and white as everyone seems to think it is. Even in the podcast I thought the descriptions were a bit simplistic, but to go further requires a bit more explanation then what most would be willing to spare time for.

Like just as an example, everyone says Light is good, Dark is bad, and it's not really as cut and dry as all that. Light side/Dark side are just two different sides of the "force coin". Both can do great things, but not usually the same thing.

It also irritates me when people say the Dark side isn't as strong as the Light side. That's a bunch of hooey. If the Dark side wasn't stronger, no one would use it. Ever. They are equally strong, just in different ways. I look at the light side like a marathon runner. Strong, powerful, solid in the long run, but comes up short in a burst. The dark side is a sprinter. Fast, powerful, unable to keep it up for long periods of time but can burst.

Anyway, the inner Sith in me can debate the power of the dark side all day long. But I don't want to bore anyone

I have different thoughts on the force then your average Star Wars fan. Like I can write pages about Light vs Dark side and how its not as black and white as everyone seems to think it is.

For transitioning into AoE, we have five separate opposing factions - Alliance/Empire/Jedi/Sith/Fringe, the first four of which have separate Force traditions. Plus whatever smaller Force traditions we can think of.

If the Dark side wasn't stronger, no one would use it. Ever. They are equally strong, just in different ways. I look at the light side like a marathon runner. Strong, powerful, solid in the long run, but comes up short in a burst. The dark side is a sprinter. Fast, powerful, unable to keep it up for long periods of time but can burst.

This... So much this.

This is precisely WHY the Force Dice are arrayed the way they are, yes?

For transitioning into AoE, we have five separate opposing factions - Alliance/Empire/Jedi/Sith/Fringe, the first four of which have separate Force traditions. Plus whatever smaller Force traditions we can think of.

I would call it 6 factions, baring in mind that the Black Sun in this era has as many resources available to it as the Rebel Alliance leading up to the Death of Prince Xizor.

This is precisely WHY the Force Dice are arrayed the way they are, yes?

Very much so, as Jay Little discussed on one of his O66 guest appearances. It quite accurately reflects that the dark side is the "quick and easy" path, but it's not stronger than the light side; if anything, the light side is the stronger of the two in this system, as you have a better chance of getting more bang for your buck when a light side facing comes up since 3 of the 5 have two pips on them, where only 1 of the 7 dark side facings has two pips.

This is precisely WHY the Force Dice are arrayed the way they are, yes?

Very much so, as Jay Little discussed on one of his O66 guest appearances. It quite accurately reflects that the dark side is the "quick and easy" path, but it's not stronger than the light side; if anything, the light side is the stronger of the two in this system, as you have a better chance of getting more bang for your buck when a light side facing comes up since 3 of the 5 have two pips on them, where only 1 of the 7 dark side facings has two pips.

But that is exactly where my problem lies. I'm okay with the dark side having more faces of the die to represent that "quick, easy path". I'm not okay with the theory that the light side is somehow stronger. Its just not. In this system it sure seems that way, but that is the part I disagree with. I always thought there should have been one more face with 2 dark side pips or that one face that has 2 to have 3 instead. Or a melding of points. So instead of:

DD, D, D, D, D, D, D, L, L, LL, LL, LL

It should be:

DD, DD, D, D, D, D, D, L, L, LL, LL, LL

or

DDD, D, D, D, D, D, D, L, L, LL, LL, LL

or one of the above with a melding like so:

DDD, D, D, D, D, D, D, LD, L, LL, LL, LL

Really, the strongest most powerful force users are the ones that can combine the dark and the light side for maximum effectiveness. Even the most accomplished Jedi (Grand Master Luke, I'm staring at you) is handicapped by his unwillingness to combine them. Same goes for the most accomplished dark side user. Some of the most powerful force powers actually combine light and dark side components. Battle Meditation for instance. It dampens your enemies with fear and doubt (dark side) while bolstering your allies with confidence and strength (light side). Battle Meditation is one of the most powerful force powers now more or less lost to the galaxy.

And really, it was lost to the galaxy until Darth Caedus found it again but yeah. He gone.

So yeah, I don't buy the BS Yoda was selling about the dark side not being stronger. Both sides are equally powerful in different ways. Raw power is the strength of the Dark Side, Raw endurance is a strength of the Light.

The BS from Yoda is pretty much the truth of it. Your understanding is simply lacking. Come back after a few hundred years of experience and see if you still feel as you do now.

What he told you was true, from a certain point of view.

You'll find that many of truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Yoda had 900 years of light side. Of course he's going to think its stronger. If nothing else, it was his own EXPERIENCE in using the light side that made him more powerful then any other living jedi at the moment. And even that wasn't enough. If the light side was really stronger, how did Darth Sidious best him in combat? If he really was more powerful, he should have been able to tell Kenobi to have a seat, and take on Sidious and Vader by himself.

Do you think that's air you're breathing?

If the light side was really stronger, how did Darth Sidious best him in combat? If he really was more powerful, he should have been able to tell Kenobi to have a seat, and take on Sidious and Vader by himself.

If that's what you think happened, you missed part of the movie. He took all Sidious' lighting and sent it back. Then he rolled a Despair, fell and lost the high ground nothing to do with the Force.

You're also missing the point of the use of the Force. The dark side is easier because the user can appeal to their baser natures to tap it. Maintaining a sense peace and calm while calling on it is very difficult to do. So your statement that nobody would use the dark side because its less powerful makes no sense: you're ignoring the context within which the power is used. Dark Siders use it because it's easier and they can't maintain that sense peace. It's really their only option.

In any case, it's not really debatable: Yoda, aka Lucas, has spoken.

You're also missing the point of the use of the Force. The dark side is easier because the user can appeal to their baser natures to tap it. Maintaining a sense peace and calm while calling on it is very difficult to do. So your statement that nobody would use the dark side because its less powerful makes no sense: you're ignoring the context within which the power is used. Dark Siders use it because it's easier and they can't maintain that sense peace. It's really their only option.

In any case, it's not really debatable: Yoda, aka Lucas, has spoken.

I was going to reply, but this sums up a lot of what I was going to say pretty well.

The light side in this game is more powerful in a purely mechanical sense as you don't have to spend a Destiny Point and suffer Strain to use them as Force Points. Which means that if your Force-user is just about to hit their Strain Threshold and/or the party is out of Destiny Points, you're going to want to see those Light Side pips since it means you can activate your powers without paying any added costs.

Since Yoda is pretty much expressing Lucas' views on the Force, and Lucas is pretty much the ultimate authority when it comes to Star Wars, the fact that the little green guy says the dark side isn't stronger means just that. The so-called theory there not really being a dark side (aka the Potentium Theory or Vergere's Unified Force babble) have both been proven to be utter crap, with Jacen's going full-blown Sith nutjob being pretty solid proof of that. Heck, Dooku espoused a similar notion, that using the light and dark in equal measure would lead to greater power, and look where he ended up; pawn to a Sith Lord and cast aside once a more promising apprentice became available.

In the game, the dark side "looks" more powerful because more of the Force die facings have Dark Side pips, but the problem is (aside from having to flip a Destiny Point and suffer Strain) is that in most instances, you only get a single Dark Side pip to work with, which means you're limited to the basic effects of a power if you're only rolling a single Force die. Contrast to the Light Side pips, with most of them providing 2 Force Points to work with and no additional costs, which means you get to activate a basic power and an upgrade if rolling a single Force die. I'd certainly not call the Dark Side "stronger" in such instances, as the player has to exert more resources to use that Dark Side point than they would if they rolled even just a single Light Side pip instead.

To put it another way, the dark side is akin to an energy drink, where the light side is akin to a full night's worth of sleep. The energy drink will give you a quick pick-me-up, but after a couple hours, you'll be just as tired as you were before, if not more so. The full night's worth of sleep will take longer, but when you wake up, you'll be fully refreshed and won't be tired until much later in the day, long after the energy drink would have given out. Plus there's the matter of those energy drinks really not being all that healthy for you (most of them advice not taking more than one per day to avoid health problems), so it's really just a short-term fix to the long-term issue of your body needing rest.

If that's what you think happened, you missed part of the movie. He took all Sidious' lighting and sent it back. Then he rolled a Despair, fell and lost the high ground nothing to do with the Force.

You're also missing the point of the use of the Force. The dark side is easier because the user can appeal to their baser natures to tap it. Maintaining a sense peace and calm while calling on it is very difficult to do. So your statement that nobody would use the dark side because its less powerful makes no sense: you're ignoring the context within which the power is used. Dark Siders use it because it's easier and they can't maintain that sense peace. It's really their only option.

Despair. Funny.

I'm not missing the point of the use of the Force. If a light sider can use the dark side, and a dark sider can use the light side, its not as black and white as everyone makes it. Its not their "only option" in any way.

I was going to reply, but this sums up a lot of what I was going to say pretty well.

In any case, it's not really debatable: Yoda, aka Lucas, has spoken.

The light side in this game is more powerful in a purely mechanical sense as you don't have to spend a Destiny Point and suffer Strain to use them as Force Points. Which means that if your Force-user is just about to hit their Strain Threshold and/or the party is out of Destiny Points, you're going to want to see those Light Side pips since it means you can activate your powers without paying any added costs.

Since Yoda is pretty much expressing Lucas' views on the Force, and Lucas is pretty much the ultimate authority when it comes to Star Wars, the fact that the little green guy says the dark side isn't stronger means just that. The so-called theory there not really being a dark side (aka the Potentium Theory or Vergere's Unified Force babble) have both been proven to be utter crap, with Jacen's going full-blown Sith nutjob being pretty solid proof of that. Heck, Dooku espoused a similar notion, that using the light and dark in equal measure would lead to greater power, and look where he ended up; pawn to a Sith Lord and cast aside once a more promising apprentice became available.

In the game, the dark side "looks" more powerful because more of the Force die facings have Dark Side pips, but the problem is (aside from having to flip a Destiny Point and suffer Strain) is that in most instances, you only get a single Dark Side pip to work with, which means you're limited to the basic effects of a power if you're only rolling a single Force die. Contrast to the Light Side pips, with most of them providing 2 Force Points to work with and no additional costs, which means you get to activate a basic power and an upgrade if rolling a single Force die. I'd certainly not call the Dark Side "stronger" in such instances, as the player has to exert more resources to use that Dark Side point than they would if they rolled even just a single Light Side pip instead.

To put it another way, the dark side is akin to an energy drink, where the light side is akin to a full night's worth of sleep. The energy drink will give you a quick pick-me-up, but after a couple hours, you'll be just as tired as you were before, if not more so. The full night's worth of sleep will take longer, but when you wake up, you'll be fully refreshed and won't be tired until much later in the day, long after the energy drink would have given out. Plus there's the matter of those energy drinks really not being all that healthy for you (most of them advice not taking more than one per day to avoid health problems), so it's really just a short-term fix to the long-term issue of your body needing rest.

This is about the funniest thing I've read here.

Really? You're coming back with a "but Lucas said so" blast?

Lucas says a lot of things. Lucas says Greedo shoots first. How's that one going over the fanbase?

And, last I checked, Lucas is no longer part of the franchise.

Your best point was the last paragraph, but it was basically a rehash of my point. I compared the Dark/Light side to runners, you compared it to energy drinks. Its the same point. In the short term, the power is there for the dark side. Over the long haul, it leans to the light.

you should really put this on youtube or some system that can bookmark sections so we dont have to listen to the entire thing if we are only interested in a small bit

So yeah, I don't buy the BS Yoda was selling about the dark side not being stronger. Both sides are equally powerful in different ways. Raw power is the strength of the Dark Side, Raw endurance is a strength of the Light.

Part of the problem is that, from a game mechanic perspective, we don't have the full rules. The EotE core rulebook has dropped a pretty heavy hint that Force & Destiny will have rules concerning the downside of relying on the dark side, but PCs at this point in time are considered of insufficient power to really have to worry about it.

Because let's face it, a group that only has access to EotE or AoR (not both) entails that a Force-user is stuck with a maximum Force Rating of 2. Force Rating 3 is only possible if using both books, or making use of homebrew material such as the various attempts at Jedi careers or my own Force-Sensitive universal specs.

I also think you're reading too much into what Yoda said. He never said the light side was inherently stronger, only that the dark side offers quick & easy power, but carries with it a heavy cost. Right now, FFG hasn't published what that cost is beyond having to flip a Destiny Point and suffer some Strain. The only thing we do have in that regard is an option to have a PC that's deemed sufficiently wicked to become a dark side Force-user, but there's zero mechanics to determine when that option should be exercised, if it should be used for a PC at all. In fact, the sidebar suggests that it's really only meant to be used by NPC villains, such as the Emperor's Hand.

Part of the problem is that, from a game mechanic perspective, we don't have the full rules. The EotE core rulebook has dropped a pretty heavy hint that Force & Destiny will have rules concerning the downside of relying on the dark side, but PCs at this point in time are considered of insufficient power to really have to worry about it.

Fair enough. That's a solid point. And, I might add, much better then your first reply/reaction that just about landed you on my ignore list. I don't think it detracts from my original argument that both sides of the force are approximately equal in strength, or that one side is stronger then the other under certain conditions in how they are used. I'd just like to see that in the mechanics of the force. Perhaps in the future rules they'll get to it. Light and Dark side are balanced (power wise) now in game as it is, as there are exactly the same number of light and dark pips on the die anyway.

I also think you're reading too much into what Yoda said. He never said the light side was inherently stronger, only that the dark side offers quick & easy power, but carries with it a heavy cost. Right now, FFG hasn't published what that cost is beyond having to flip a Destiny Point and suffer some Strain. The only thing we do have in that regard is an option to have a PC that's deemed sufficiently wicked to become a dark side Force-user, but there's zero mechanics to determine when that option should be exercised, if it should be used for a PC at all. In fact, the sidebar suggests that it's really only meant to be used by NPC villains, such as the Emperor's Hand.

I don't think i'm reading too much. Luke outright asks him if the Dark Side is stronger and Yoda quickly (almost too quickly) says No. If anything, I'm reading between the lines.

To the point about the mechanics and options provided in game to become a dark side force-user: I find the use of dark side powers not necessarily to be evil acts on their own. If anything, the dark side is merely the tool used to execute the will of the sentient who's wielding it. Like a gun in a murder, its not the gun, its the guy pulling the trigger. The gun is simply the tool by which the act is carried out. Similarly, I don't think there is a difference between Dark side corruption and Light side corruption. If you are forced to use the dark side to save someone, is it truly an "evil" act? The flip is if you use the Light side to influence an outcome to bring harm to others, is that a "good" act?

What really bakes your noodle is when you start asking what actually corrupts you. The dark side? Or your own actions? When you think of the most evil dark side users, they aren't the nicest of people. So is it the "dark side" or is it themselves? I'm sure the dark side helps in some way, after all, you can't win a marathon by sprinting. But is the true corruption from the dark side of the force or do they just naturally come from within?

Whoa, thanks for the reminder Chris... I just realized Downcast stopped downloading new episodes because another podcast I have not listened to in a while filled up allowed space!

Also, nice meeting you at Gen Con Chris.

I don't think i'm reading too much. Luke outright asks him if the Dark Side is stronger and Yoda quickly (almost too quickly) says No.

Have you considered that Yoda's already seen plenty of instances of young prodigies, such as Luke's own father, become Crazy McEvilDouchebags because they thought the dark side was the true path to power. Case in point, Count Dooku, who was a highly respected Jedi Master and instructor for many years before resurfacing as a Sith Lord during the Clone Wars. Yoda's also well aware of thousands of years of Jedi lore with instances of promising Jedi being corrupted by becoming too reliant upon the dark side. Revan, Ulic Kel Droma, Exar Kun, all three promising Jedi, all three became Sith Lords.

So when the one last real hope the galaxy has to cast off the oppression of the dark side asks "is the dark side stronger?" (in a doubtful tone no less), then Yoda's quick response is perfectly understandable. In comparison to this upstart that Yoda's only agreed to train out of desperation, the little green guy certainly knows a hell of a lot better than most other folks in the galaxy.

As for your disdain for what Lucas has put forth, either through various characters or in director commentary, until there's a new movie that explicitly contradicts what he's put forth as to the nature of the Force, his views on the Force are G-level canon and pretty count as "word of god." Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less authoritative. It'd be akin to saying Professor Tolkien was completely wrong about the One Ring being a corrupting influence on those who carry it that aren't named Sauron.