Capital Ships do not appear to be able to stand up to smaller ships very well. Sure, they can deploy fighters of their own, but they have a massive vulnerability due to the Silhouette differences being used for base difficulty and further their defenses seem based on Armor - which weapons like Proton Torpedoes can punch right through and cause Criticals. Critical Hits will thus kill an ISD way before it hits its HTT. I'm thinking that there needs to be a base Critical Hit modifier for larger ships. Perhaps -10 or even -20 per point of Silhouette above 5? This way it will take several critical hits before massive ships start to fall apart. As it now stands, a dozen X-Wings lining up a shot with proton torpedoes can kill just about any capital ship as long as they can get the two advantages needed for a Critical Hit (and since the shot is only difficulty 1...).

As an alternate, I'd rather see a "Structural Reinforcement" rating for large capital ships. Have this rated like weapon qualities (level 1, level 2, etc.). The rating increases how many Advantages are required to activate a critical hit. So if the ISD had Structural Reinforcement 3, it would take 5 advantages for a proton torpedo to activate a critical hit (assuming it hasn't exceeded the ISD's HTT).

This is transplanted over from the AoR Beta forums. The EotE forums currently get far more attention.

I wonder if this is the intended mechanic - indeed, most capital ships are defended by fighters from fighters for a reason. Any captain that cannot defend his ship from a dozen rebel x-wings deserve the force-choke he's going to get.

Aren't proton torpedoes designed to destroy larger ships in canon? That would make a lot of sense to me if an undefended capitol ship was obliterated by a dozen or so in a firing line. If not, what were they designed for?

Either way, if you don't like the system as it stands why not try your hand at writing one up? You seem to know the rules pretty well from other posts. Worst case scenario is you have something for your group to enjoy that no one else uses. More likely, other people may agree and start to use your ideas.

I don't know. Since crits are how you take out individual systems, it would be devastating to make it impossible to destroy gun turrets, engines, shield generators, take out hangars, etc. And the fragility of cap ships and similar super-weapons is something that in the Rebellion era (in particular) was sort of a known flaw in military development (it's the whole reason the Rebels were able to do anything at all to the Empire and was the whole point of ARC-170s, Y-Wings, B-Wings and the like).

Maybe limit the maximum crit result possible for a smaller ship can do instead (so you can't blow up a whole SSD with a snub fighter but you can strip it of components until it's just a hull in space - total destruction requires at-level or better weapons), but then again - ANH and RotJ both had very large things taken out by very (comparatively) small ones...

I think the vulnerability to torpedoes is fitting. After all, this is an analogue for high-seas naval warfare, where one fighter-launched torpedo would be deadly enough, but several would be downright catastrophic.

I'm no tactician, but I think any Admiral worth his salt is going to make sure those fighters never get within torpedo range of his high-value ships. In addition to defensive fighter wings, the DP20 was designed to protect its fleet from this exact type of threat. Remember, laser cannons on a Silhouette 5 ship get to shoot as if they're Silhouette 4.

Look at it beyond fighters. With the rules as they currently stand, light capital ships in small packs will simply devastate larger vessels. This is because even the light turbolaser can punch through armor and get a critical with ease. Per RAW, it takes the same value of critical hits to finish off a CR-90 Corellian Corvette as it does to drop an ISD. Considering that the Corellian Corvette is taking Easy (1) shots while the ISD's shots are Daunting (4), the Corvette's are going to get enough Advantages to activate criticals time and again (the ISD will just settle for exceeding the HTT of the CR-90). Since each critical is +10 to the next, the ISD will quickly go from fully operation to BOOM! with little time spent in middle. I don't think that an ISD is mean to be threatened by a handful of CR-90s.

I think the vulnerability to torpedoes is fitting. After all, this is an analogue for high-seas naval warfare, where one fighter-launched torpedo would be deadly enough, but several would be downright catastrophic.

I'm no tactician, but I think any Admiral worth his salt is going to make sure those fighters never get within torpedo range of his high-value ships. In addition to defensive fighter wings, the DP20 was designed to protect its fleet from this exact type of threat. Remember, laser cannons on a Silhouette 5 ship get to shoot as if they're Silhouette 4.

Yes, and point defense weapons on an ISD get to shoot as if they were Silhouette 7 - which is effectively useless against the types of targets these weapons should be engaging.

The difficulty/inability to hit smaller targets stops making sense at a certain point. The weapon doesn't get bigger and more cumbersome just because the ship it's mounted on is larger. IRL, a CIWS on an aircraft carrier is just as effective at targeting as a CIWS on a frigate.

I wonder if this is the intended mechanic - indeed, most capital ships are defended by fighters from fighters for a reason. Any captain that cannot defend his ship from a dozen rebel x-wings deserve the force-choke he's going to get.

If fighters are required to counter fighters, but fighters can counter capital ships with ease, then why were capital ships other than dedicated carriers ever built?

When would capital ships ever be in combat without fighters? I get the math behind it, but it jives right with what I know about naval combat (no expert but I know a little) and while it's a fun thought exercise, it's a little akin to watching for planes when you cross the road, because you never know: ONE DAY a plane might be there. But for the most part, it's not going to happen.

I wonder if this is the intended mechanic - indeed, most capital ships are defended by fighters from fighters for a reason. Any captain that cannot defend his ship from a dozen rebel x-wings deserve the force-choke he's going to get.

If fighters are required to counter fighters, but fighters can counter capital ships with ease, then why were capital ships other than dedicated carriers ever built?

Movement of resources, a spectacle of power, yadda yadda. It's cheaper and easier to carry 1000 troops in one ship than in 1000 ships.

Keep in mind, one fighter isn't going to take out a capital ship by themself - even the famed Arvel Crynyd needed a hand.

Yes, and point defense weapons on an ISD get to shoot as if they were Silhouette 7 - which is effectively useless against the types of targets these weapons should be engaging.

The difficulty/inability to hit smaller targets stops making sense at a certain point. The weapon doesn't get bigger and more cumbersome just because the ship it's mounted on is larger. IRL, a CIWS on an aircraft carrier is just as effective at targeting as a CIWS on a frigate.

I don't have any materials with the ISD's specs or armaments, but I'm guessing they'd have enough point-defense turrets to create at least a few minion groups of 6 on each arc. That would allow them to fire those guns with 5 ability dice plus upgrades from the gunners' Agility. So yes, the difficulty is daunting-to-formidable, but the ISD ought to make up for that in the sheer volume of its firepower.

Look at it beyond fighters. With the rules as they currently stand, light capital ships in small packs will simply devastate larger vessels. This is because even the light turbolaser can punch through armor and get a critical with ease. Per RAW, it takes the same value of critical hits to finish off a CR-90 Corellian Corvette as it does to drop an ISD. Considering that the Corellian Corvette is taking Easy (1) shots while the ISD's shots are Daunting (4), the Corvette's are going to get enough Advantages to activate criticals time and again (the ISD will just settle for exceeding the HTT of the CR-90). Since each critical is +10 to the next, the ISD will quickly go from fully operation to BOOM! with little time spent in middle. I don't think that an ISD is mean to be threatened by a handful of CR-90s.

Again, I'm speculating on specs I haven't seen, but I'm guessing it has enough weapon emplacements to fire more often than, and with larger dice pools than, a small group of corvettes. I also have no idea how many corvettes it would take to reasonably outnumber a single ISD.

With regard to counting criticals, since crits are more about deliberate (or accidental) hits to vital systems, it would make sense that all ships would have the same basic "crit threshold." That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to ships having a quality similar to the Durable talent, that allows them to dampen those crits. But I'd make that a function of good ship design (fewer weak spots) than I would of the ship's general size.

How about the shield rating being added to the crit rating? So a ship with shields of 2 would require 4 advantage for the proton torpedo.

BTW, what is the shield rating of the ISD?

I was just getting ready to ask that similarly... what are the stats for a SD? I'd love to run some scenarios before my next game.

I wonder if this is the intended mechanic - indeed, most capital ships are defended by fighters from fighters for a reason. Any captain that cannot defend his ship from a dozen rebel x-wings deserve the force-choke he's going to get.

If fighters are required to counter fighters, but fighters can counter capital ships with ease, then why were capital ships other than dedicated carriers ever built?

From the Essential Guide to Warfare (particularly pages 117-168) - a combination of ego, Tarkin Doctrine and logistical independence, with some planetary heavy lift capacity thrown in.

The fetish for ever larger capital ships (and their astronomical budgets) was a big issue within the Empire, but the Emperor wanted shows of strength and didn't think swarms of corvettes and carriers flanked by the odd destroyer were sufficient (and those that opposed this idea, like Adar Tallon, grew silent as the Emperor continued to promote for ideological loyalty over actual merit or ability).

It wasn't until you get into the Executor and the Eclipse-scale ships where a new reason emerged - the need for a ship that size to carry a planetkilling super-laser, but even then torpedo spheres were by far more efficient in terms of cost effectiveness and maintenance at that job.

This is why crazy old religious mystics make for bad military leaders, and those that also are evil and have no concept of externality costs for lost vehicles and troops are so much worse.

Yes, and point defense weapons on an ISD get to shoot as if they were Silhouette 7 - which is effectively useless against the types of targets these weapons should be engaging.

The difficulty/inability to hit smaller targets stops making sense at a certain point. The weapon doesn't get bigger and more cumbersome just because the ship it's mounted on is larger. IRL, a CIWS on an aircraft carrier is just as effective at targeting as a CIWS on a frigate.

I don't have any materials with the ISD's specs or armaments, but I'm guessing they'd have enough point-defense turrets to create at least a few minion groups of 6 on each arc. That would allow them to fire those guns with 5 ability dice plus upgrades from the gunners' Agility. So yes, the difficulty is daunting-to-formidable, but the ISD ought to make up for that in the sheer volume of its firepower.

Point defence is pretty irrelevant at ISD size. Sil 7 or Sil 8 you still are shooting against max difficulty.

Still, you can make a bunch of minion groups so you will be shooting at max effect too.

Still still, too bad there isnt a core book that might have rules for having a fight between cap ships or cap ships and fighters.

ISDs are carriers. And cruisers. And assault ships.

Maybe there was a method to their madness...

Okay, for those with the Age of Rebellion Beta book, page 187 has the bread & butter Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer, and 183 has your cr90 Corvette. TL;DR bring a lot of corvettes to this party.

I don't have Age of Rebellion (had to sidestep it for financial reasons; saving up for the final product, though), but here's my two cents.

If you are concerned about it, pull a page from some of the other RPGs and rely on canon:

1) Point Defense Guns. If memory serves correctly, the point defense guns count as a smaller size due to the size of the gun and the design of the targeting system, so they remove the penalty of being a (much) larger ship to hit a smaller ship.

Basically, I'd use the Silhouette required of the weapon here for this purpose.

The logic: in canon, the Lancer Frigate is geared toward taking on starfighters while being the size of a small capital ship. It can take out starfighters pretty well, but it doesn't fare well against larger ships because it doesn't have bigger guns.

Mechanically, I'd consider the Silhouette requirements of the weapons being used instead of the Silhouette of the ship. Smaller cannons act as Silhouette 4, while the bigger ones act as 5+.

This way, your blaster cannons are able to be anti-starfighter weapons.

2) Implement the (poorly done) scale mechanic from the d6 version. For those not in the know: hitting an ISD with an X-Wing's cannons would only deal about half the damage, if not less, due to the ISD getting a good size bonus to soak due to the size difference. Essentially, smaller ship weapons deal less damage to bigger ships.

3) Advance on the already implemented Silhouette mechanic. Give a bonus to soak based on the size difference. Perhaps a +1 to soak for every 1 over the smaller ship; only for Silhouette 6+ ships?

4) Offer a crit "maximum" unless dramatically appropriate when a smaller ship hits a bigger ship. An A-Wing firing cannons isn't going to cause much damage on an ISD in a single run due to the chances of hitting more "empty" space than something solid; a crit there would be lucky to break down a system. An A-Wing crashing into a bridge is a whole different story.

2) Implement the (poorly done) scale mechanic from the d6 version. For those not in the know: hitting an ISD with an X-Wing's cannons would only deal about half the damage, if not less, due to the ISD getting a good size bonus to soak due to the size difference. Essentially, smaller ship weapons deal less damage to bigger ships.

That must be the D6 Star Wars 2nd Edition Revised & Expanded. 2nd Edition used damage caps instead. So, a smaller scale shooting at a larger scale had the result of the dice limited to no higher than a certain value.

2) Implement the (poorly done) scale mechanic from the d6 version. For those not in the know: hitting an ISD with an X-Wing's cannons would only deal about half the damage, if not less, due to the ISD getting a good size bonus to soak due to the size difference. Essentially, smaller ship weapons deal less damage to bigger ships.

That must be the D6 Star Wars 2nd Edition Revised & Expanded. 2nd Edition used damage caps instead. So, a smaller scale shooting at a larger scale had the result of the dice limited to no higher than a certain value.

Your note is probably more accurate. I don't have my book with me (which is revised and expanded), but the point of it still stands: bigger ships look at smaller ships like mosquitos at times.

Note though, LibrariaNPC, that the Lancer-class frigate is already equipped finely for anti-starfighter work in the beta book; Silhouette 5 but counting as Silhouette 4 for the purposes of attacking starfighters, so their attack difficulty against starfighters by default is only Average; there's no need to change the rules on account of that.

Note though, LibrariaNPC, that the Lancer-class frigate is already equipped finely for anti-starfighter work in the beta book; Silhouette 5 but counting as Silhouette 4 for the purposes of attacking starfighters, so their attack difficulty against starfighters by default is only Average; there's no need to change the rules on account of that.

Thanks for pointing out that. As previously mentioned, I don't have access to the AoR Beta, so I'm doing a boatload of guesswork and canon-inspired thoughts.

I don't have Age of Rebellion (had to sidestep it for financial reasons; saving up for the final product, though), but here's my two cents.

If you are concerned about it, pull a page from some of the other RPGs and rely on canon:

1) Point Defense Guns. If memory serves correctly, the point defense guns count as a smaller size due to the size of the gun and the design of the targeting system, so they remove the penalty of being a (much) larger ship to hit a smaller ship.

Basically, I'd use the Silhouette required of the weapon here for this purpose.

The logic: in canon, the Lancer Frigate is geared toward taking on starfighters while being the size of a small capital ship. It can take out starfighters pretty well, but it doesn't fare well against larger ships because it doesn't have bigger guns.

Mechanically, I'd consider the Silhouette requirements of the weapons being used instead of the Silhouette of the ship. Smaller cannons act as Silhouette 4, while the bigger ones act as 5+.

This way, your blaster cannons are able to be anti-starfighter weapons.

The idea of each weapon having it's own Silhouette isn't bad. It would prevent the current issue that two weapons of the same type have differing difficulties engaging a different target because of the hull they're mounted upon. This method is more complicated, but it has some appeal to me.

As my GM found out, Star Galleons (despite their description) could also use some help. The description states they are used to transport high-value cargo without the need of an escort, but they are sitting ducks. They have no firing solution aft and our YT-2400 just flew in behind it and started chipping away until our GM decided to jump it out (his whole plan ruined).