I screwed up my XP and weapon economy

By sabata00, in Game Masters

So, I messed up pretty bad (I think).

Three out of my five players have focused on combat stats. At where we are now, they have invested their XP so as to have full stats in their respective combat skills. So, we have a combat droid with 5 agi and 5 in heavy weapons, a force sensitive with 4 brawn and 5 melee, and an assassin with 4 agi and 5 ranged heavy.

As for weapons, the combat droid has a heavy blaster rifle which autofires on almost every attack. This character's damage output is ridiculous, and he almost never fails a check. With autofire, he often has anywhere from 35-50 damage on his attacks.

The other two combat-focused characters are much less dangerous, but also are able to almost guarantee a hit on their attacks.

This is my fault, and I know it. I gave out too much XP, put too much emphasis on combat, and gave them access to too awesome weapons. My players love it, and are having fun, but I am not. Rivals, minion groups, and sometimes even nemeses are destroyed in one roll. Combat is no longer based at all on thoughtful tactics or balanced approaches, but instead revolves around keeping the DPS characters (primarily the droid) alive with stimpacks and repair patches until their turn comes up.

Any suggestions on how to deal with overgeared characters? I don't want to be a **** and arbitrarily confiscate their guns. They are also heavily opposed to the idea of having to conceal weapons, ever.

So, I messed up pretty bad (I think).

Three out of my five players have focused on combat stats. At where we are now, they have invested their XP so as to have full stats in their respective combat skills. So, we have a combat droid with 5 agi and 5 in heavy weapons, a force sensitive with 4 brawn and 5 melee, and an assassin with 4 agi and 5 ranged heavy.

As for weapons, the combat droid has a heavy blaster rifle which autofires on almost every attack. This character's damage output is ridiculous, and he almost never fails a check. With autofire, he often has anywhere from 35-50 damage on his attacks.

The other two combat-focused characters are much less dangerous, but also are able to almost guarantee a hit on their attacks.

This is my fault, and I know it. I gave out too much XP, put too much emphasis on combat, and gave them access to too awesome weapons. My players love it, and are having fun, but I am not. Rivals, minion groups, and sometimes even nemeses are destroyed in one roll. Combat is no longer based at all on thoughtful tactics or balanced approaches, but instead revolves around keeping the DPS characters (primarily the droid) alive with stimpacks and repair patches until their turn comes up.

Any suggestions on how to deal with overgeared characters? I don't want to be a **** and arbitrarily confiscate their guns. They are also heavily opposed to the idea of having to conceal weapons, ever.

The Empire has no problem with arbitrary actions. If they don't conceal, they'll lose their weapons. The setting pretty much says that the Empire can outgun anything that tries to make a stand-up fight. The PCs might be able to outfight a lot, but can they deal with a strafing run by TIEs?

Wow, how much XP did you give them? Did you set up Obligations to match the inflated XP?

More importantly, did you allow them to purchase characteristics with XP after creation?

More importantly, did you allow them to purchase characteristics with XP after creation?

No. The only upgrades to characteristics have been done through cybernetics and talents.

Wow, how much XP did you give them? Did you set up Obligations to match the inflated XP?

Most players have earned a little less than 200xp since creation. This is at a rate of 20xp or so per session. They've gone through a lot of missions and have overcome a lot of different obligations.

Cybernetics are vulnerable to ionization weapons. It would make sense that enemy groups would be prepared with such weapons as the reputation of your players' crew grows.

A few solutions:

In-Setting:

* cyber stuff: as others point out, ionization is a bad thing, obvious cyber is also a major social outcast thing, making cyborgs a pariah (organics feel they are too droid-like, and in a Dark Times/Rebellion-era there's a lot of bad stereotypes of cyborgs, mostly related to the actions of Cad Bane and General Grevious). For voluntary cyber that isn't basic replacements for limbs lost in "acceptable" ways this gets worse.

* droid with weapons: instant link to the CIS and its actions, as well as the rogue antics of C-3PX and IG-88 (both droids notorious for high collateral damage in their missions), so not only are you chattel, you are dangerous chattle that should be dismantled (as far as most people are concerned).

* weapons in general: upkeep/maintenance/repair, theft/confiscation, social intolerance (carrying around hand cannons and assault weapons makes everyone twitchy, from bystanders to even most Hutts - especially if you are not loyal/dependant on them (i.e. you aren't their highly-armed thugs).

* always someone bigger: the Empire dropped a star destroyer on food rioters, and blew up a major planet as a public weapons test. Grotesque overkill is not an uncommon implementation of the Tarkin Doctrine, especially on undesireables that otherwise have no one to speak for them (which droids and overgunned cyborgs likely do not). An old (and highly antagonistic) GM trick is to take their character sheets, duplicate their stuff&stats and use them against the PCs. Not my favourite but it gets the point across at the expense of really tanking social interaction with the players.

All of these run the risk of players getting understandably upset at having stuff they earned taken away from them and fail to address two other issues - the focus on combat in your campaign and the issue of xp/weapons availability.

Combat focus: one of the easier things to fix, slowly change the mix of activities to something where combat is less of an all-important issue. I recommend slowly because a group that is all-combat is really going to suffer once the adventures start calling for survival/social interaction type rolls, give them time to adjust, taking hard lumps from time to time but not totally ruining their day.

Too much XP/too freely available weapons: The best thing to do here is talk to the players and admit straight up you goofed. Talk it over with them about possibly rolling back the xps and the gear allotments. Let them discuss what they like to keep and what they are willing to give up (if anything). Some players may like a return to slightly more challenging combats while others like the more Clone Wars (cartoon) or Force Unleashed style fights, but most will understand that something got out of whack along the way and will de-power their characters (so long as everyone is doing it and you as GM adjust the level of adversity to match).

Edited by Bahamaat

No campaign is beyond help.

The first thing to think of is what did they spend it all on? Then hit them where they are weakest. Did they all max out on combat? Hit them with puzzles and social situations. Don't do it to punish them, but rather broaden their characters a bit.

Pull out a few of the big guns and make the campaign more epic in scope! These guys have now reached the epitome of their skill sets so they should be well known by other fringers and scoundrels. You can keep it fresh by creating nemesis npcs of their calibre.

Next time? Go slower with the XP and cash. Keep them hungry. Remember that ships cost a ton to repair so keep tagging their ship with damage. Have mishaps and the occasional free job. Give them new friends instead of tangible rewards. Don't let them loot everything. Have police and soldiers just around the corner to make them grab just the important stuff.

edit - Hmm, thats what I get for slowly typing this at work. Bahamaat makes some very good points. Use them.

Edited by FangGrip

Wow, how much XP did you give them? Did you set up Obligations to match the inflated XP?

Most players have earned a little less than 200xp since creation. This is at a rate of 20xp or so per session. They've gone through a lot of missions and have overcome a lot of different obligations.

This doesn't sounds like too much XP. But it does sound like you're letting the players run roughshod over the setting.

I'm not sure an XP roll-back is warranted here. Just hit them where they are weak (skills- or stats-wise), and (at least temporarily) take away their weapons. It's not arbitrary if they're going around flaunting what they've got. They'll get what's coming to them if they're not being careful, whether it's the Empire or the Hutts or some other big player that has more resources than the PCs. Can they outfight a legion of stormtroopers? What if a couple of them are captured, encased in carbonite, paralyzed by a rare disease, Etc. What the others have been saying is good, but I think your main problem here is too much focus on combat. Let the combat characters shine, but also hit them where they're weak so that your other characters can shine too, and get the big guns out of sticky situations.

Wait up a minute - before you go changing anything, it's worth evaluating what your group wants. Obviously, they like fighting, so why not give it to them?

You're part of this group, too - do you feel like you're not having fun because it's so combat-heavy?

If everyone's having fun and it's just a matter of balancing your combat, that's an easy fix.

May I also suggest varying up the setting / location. Have a fight in a giant factory where strange gases and electromagnetic fields mess with their weapons. Use darkness and flickering lights and moving platforms to provide setback dice. Hit the droid with a restraining bolt from range, and see how the party likes fighting him.

Use intelligent tactics for your villains. Don't forget the Adversary Talent.

Wait up a minute - before you go changing anything, it's worth evaluating what your group wants. Obviously, they like fighting, so why not give it to them?

You're part of this group, too - do you feel like you're not having fun because it's so combat-heavy?

If everyone's having fun and it's just a matter of balancing your combat, that's an easy fix.

This is definitely what I want to do, but it's tough. My characters are very squishy and will die quickly against anything that has enough hit points to put up a real challenge.

Hit the droid with a restraining bolt from range, and see how the party likes fighting him.

This is brilliant! The only problem would be that he is very easy to kill. assuming he doesn't get initiative he will die quickly to the other players. His initiative is awful but the other players make up for it usually with high rolls.

I'm not sure an XP roll-back is warranted here. Just hit them where they are weak (skills- or stats-wise), and (at least temporarily) take away their weapons. It's not arbitrary if they're going around flaunting what they've got. They'll get what's coming to them if they're not being careful, whether it's the Empire or the Hutts or some other big player that has more resources than the PCs. Can they outfight a legion of stormtroopers? What if a couple of them are captured, encased in carbonite, paralyzed by a rare disease, Etc. What the others have been saying is good, but I think your main problem here is too much focus on combat. Let the combat characters shine, but also hit them where they're weak so that your other characters can shine too, and get the big guns out of sticky situations.

I don't consider the campaign too combat focused. Besides these 3 combat characters, there is a scholar/slicer and a smuggler. The group as a whole is very well rounded.

My issue is that combat feels shallow and uninteresting. It's a fight for first initiative slot, and little else.

Edited by sabata00

double post

Edited by sabata00

This is definitely what I want to do, but it's tough. My characters are very squishy and will die quickly against anything that has enough hit points to put up a real challenge.

Hm, guess they're not as awesome as they think! ;) If they're being hyperspace bullies, there are lots of other bullies out there. Why, just think of the bounties on their heads! Surely there are some clever bounty hunters out there that could figure out how to trap a troupe of big dumb tanks.

Hit the droid with a restraining bolt from range, and see how the party likes fighting him.

This is brilliant! The only problem would be that he is very easy to kill. assuming he doesn't get initiative he will die quickly to the other players. His initiative is awful but the other players make up for it usually with high rolls.

And?

Perhaps I should temper my question a bit with this note. Being taken out of action by having your Wound Threshold exceeded does not kill a character. It simply gives them an extra Critical hit. Unless he suffers a bunch more, or is already wounded, then he will be fine.

If he is so easy to kill, why aren't the other NPCs not focusing on him first? Reputation gets around. Use it to challenge the players.

Wait up a minute - before you go changing anything, it's worth evaluating what your group wants. Obviously, they like fighting, so why not give it to them?

You're part of this group, too - do you feel like you're not having fun because it's so combat-heavy?

If everyone's having fun and it's just a matter of balancing your combat, that's an easy fix.

This is definitely what I want to do, but it's tough. My characters are very squishy and will die quickly against anything that has enough hit points to put up a real challenge.

If they only went for DPS, show them the error of their ways.

Taken out is not death.

Stun Injury is not death.

Entanglement is not death.

Incarceration is not death.

Sarlacc pits... well, that depends on how EU your canon is.

May I also suggest varying up the setting / location. Have a fight in a giant factory where strange gases and electromagnetic fields mess with their weapons. Use darkness and flickering lights and moving platforms to provide setback dice. Hit the droid with a restraining bolt from range, and see how the party likes fighting him.

Use intelligent tactics for your villains. Don't forget the Adversary Talent.

This is an interesting idea, Mynocks are known to nom on some blasters.

If you want to go head-on, it doesn't matter how tough your individual characters are if the ship they are in get blown to pieces or plows into a star because of a hyperdrive mishap ("mishap" possibly caused by deliberate sabotage).

Also, from the sound of it they are glass ninjas - all offense, no/little defense. They can dish out a lot of bad damage, but don't seem they're the types to take a lot. So let's roll with this.

3 PCs - droid, force-botherer, assassin

Droid - ion, ion, ion, and more ion. Plus toss it into lava (force push if need be). Zot it with a foursome of Jawa guns. Vehicle-scale weapons. Favourite way we did this in the Clone Game I was in (saga edition) was Bob, our little simple GNK droid, he wore a speeder-scale ion mine on his head like a hat (we made Bob do it because GNKs are easy to restart being basically a C64 chip running a reactor and a pair of legs). If you play that way, get some of those glowy blue paintball spheres from a gungan - what's more embarrassing for a big tough guy then being done in by Jar-Jar's cousin.

Force-botherer - usually annoying because of all that combat awareness they usually have. But all the Force in the world doesn't help much when hit by a TIE Fighter (or a TIE Fighter's laser cannons, to be fair), or a flame thrower (or 6 of them, or cryo if you want to be fancy and artistic). I'm guessing Mr. Bathrobe has one of those nifty little lightsaber thingermabobs. Sniper + double aim maneuver (hit the saber) = no more lightstick. The usual thing is to go find yourself another finger-twiddling Force user to throw at them, but Order 66 should give you other ideas, and worst comes to worst, send a Torpedo Sphere to orbitally bombard the continent he's on - see 'Alderaan, Destruction of' for justification there. My personal favourite - poisons and virii (goal of one evil PC was to develop a virus that would attack the immune system of people above a certain midichlorian count by using the little plot-devices as the vector for the attack).

Assassin - counter-assassin/sniper tactics here. The Empire likes bright, well-lit places (their use of uniforms without any identification or visible faces is a major flaw here).

The ideal solution would be to simply hire the PCs - send them against Mon Mothma or some other high-profile Rebel targets, then maybe a Hutt Djerik or two. The PCs have fun and make mad cash, but the noose is closing fast. See, by doing this the PCs what's going on is the Empire (likely some ISB field coordinator acting through proxies) is setting them up to take the fall, hard. With the Hutts, Black Sun, Zann Consortium, and the Rebellion gunning for them, the Empire barely needs to do anything except cut them loose (or further the Empire's goals by selling the location of the PCs to one or more of these people) - the PCs eliminated some big nuisances for the Empire, and now the Empire's enemies will do them a favour and tear the PCs to shreds.

Edited by Bahamaat

If you want to go head-on, it doesn't matter how tough your individual characters are if the ship they are in get blown to pieces or plows into a star because of a hyperdrive mishap ("mishap" possibly caused by deliberate sabotage).

Also, from the sound of it they are glass ninjas - all offense, no/little defense. They can dish out a lot of bad damage, but don't seem they're the types to take a lot. So let's roll with this.

3 PCs - droid, force-botherer, assassin

Droid - ion, ion, ion, and more ion. Plus toss it into lava (force push if need be). Zot it with a foursome of Jawa guns. Vehicle-scale weapons. Favourite way we did this in the Clone Game I was in (saga edition) was Bob, our little simple GNK droid, he wore a speeder-scale ion mine on his head like a hat (we made Bob do it because GNKs are easy to restart being basically a C64 chip running a reactor and a pair of legs). If you play that way, get some of those glowy blue paintball spheres from a gungan - what's more embarrassing for a big tough guy then being done in by Jar-Jar's cousin.

Force-botherer - usually annoying because of all that combat awareness they usually have. But all the Force in the world doesn't help much when hit by a TIE Fighter (or a TIE Fighter's laser cannons, to be fair), or a flame thrower (or 6 of them, or cryo if you want to be fancy and artistic). I'm guessing Mr. Bathrobe has one of those nifty little lightsaber thingermabobs. Sniper + double aim maneuver (hit the saber) = no more lightstick. The usual thing is to go find yourself another finger-twiddling Force user to throw at them, but Order 66 should give you other ideas, and worst comes to worst, send a Torpedo Sphere to orbitally bombard the continent he's on - see 'Alderaan, Destruction of' for justification there. My personal favourite - poisons and virii (goal of one evil PC was to develop a virus that would attack the immune system of people above a certain midichlorian count by using the little plot-devices as the vector for the attack).

Assassin - counter-assassin/sniper tactics here. The Empire likes bright, well-lit places (their use of uniforms without any identification or visible faces is a major flaw here).

The ideal solution would be to simply hire the PCs - send them against Mon Mothma or some other high-profile Rebel targets, then maybe a Hutt Djerik or two. The PCs have fun, but the noose is closing fast. See, by doing this the PCs what's going on is the Empire (likely some ISB field coordinator) is setting them up to take the fall, hard. With the Hutts, Black Sun, Zann Consortium, and the Rebellion gunning for them, the Empire barely needs to do anything except cut them loose (or further the Empire's goals by selling the location of the PCs to one or more of these people) - the PCs eliminated some big nuisances for the Empire, and now the Empire's enemies will do them a favour and tear the PCs to shreds.

Um...I don't think we are trying to kill them all and start over here.

Just re-balance them a bit.

Also, from the sound of it they are glass ninjas - all offense, no/little defense. They can dish out a lot of bad damage, but don't seem they're the types to take a lot. So let's roll with this.

To be fair, that applies to almost everything in this game. Defensive abilities are generally harder to come by than offensive abilities, and it's usually much easier to hit harder than it is to soak more. The game also suffers from the fact that weapons on Stun are so much more effective as XP totals increase (Toughened advances WT at twice the rate that Grit advances ST, and most combat careers get greater access to Toughened). Layer that with stimpacks that heal Wounds but don't touch Strain, and Stun is where it's at.

Edited by HappyDaze

Stun is where it's at.

Good point! Everyone pays more for bounties delivered alive.

Also, from the sound of it they are glass ninjas - all offense, no/little defense. They can dish out a lot of bad damage, but don't seem they're the types to take a lot. So let's roll with this.

To be fair, that applies to almost everything in this game. Defensive abilities are generally harder to come by than offensive abilities, and it's usually much easier to hit harder than it is to soak more. The game also suffers from the fact that weapons on Stun are so much more effective as XP totals increase (Toughened advances WT at twice the rate that Grit advances ST, and most combat careers get greater access to Toughened). Layer that with stimpacks that heal Wounds but don't touch Strain, and Stun is where it's at.

Followed up by a quick double tap with a non-stun blaster if so desired. ;)

Um...I don't think we are trying to kill them all and start over here.

Just re-balance them a bit.

I know, I just got carried away with it.

Edited by Bahamaat

I know, I just got carried away with it.

Your point should be well taken though. No player character is invincible, and some of these ideas can be used slightly less lethally.