I like the idea of Squadron Title cards - limited to a certain class or classes of ship.

I'd also like to see a unique "Red Squad Leader" (gold, blue, etc...) title card that functions almost exactly like squad leader for 1 point, but only affects (insert color here) squadron pilots - so you could have dutch and garven with gold and red squad leader - but they could only give extra actions to red or gold squad pilots...

Yes sure why not as an addition.

So Aminar you think the Falcon is OP. Interesting XD

I like the title card route. You pay but you pay mabe a bit less than you usually would (also allows for zero cost "improvements" to some less played ships).

I could also see 1 use, aka "Discard this card..." squad cards. Again, you would have to follow restrictions and pay a little but any pilot in the squad could use the benifit (either single single use or more powerful "until end of round" use).

Both options could be used, shouldn't power creep anything too much, add flavor and replayability, and allow for some "fixing" of some ships.

I don't think it's OP, just obnoxious for its inability to be outmanuevered. I'm an agile fighter by nature and having something that hard counters a force of elite agile fighters irks me.

I'm more saying simple but useful is the important part here. Too many restrictions is obnoxious. Not enough benefit but free will almost definitly be ignored. Like any powerup the benefit needs to be significant, efficient, but not too much.

Beyond that they should reflect being a squadron, a group of people who have worked together, flown together, lived and lost together, and can help each other. The ability to pass each other stress tokens, or take each others hits, make each other harder to hit, help each other get more accurate. Use the cards to let the squadron support each other like the support specialists do, but not better than the support specialists. That's the thematic way to handle it.

Instead of discussing the examples, you just need to focus on what the recommendation offers. This idea has been around since launch, and has already existed in several games. The idea is if you meet the prerequisites you receive a bonus. The question is, then, does the game need this? Do enough players demand this sort of thing that it is wise for FFG to consider it? The fact is, as much as I like the idea, and was an early supporter, I don't see it happening. At least not for awhile. It is more or less a scenario with official status, and you should be encouraged to create this on your own and play with your friends.

Of course we see will it happening, we already have one. I am guessing we will continue to see other squad-specific upgrades as time goes on.

As for the more complex ideas floated here, well that remains to be seen.

We already have one? Which one is that?

That's not even remotely the same idea as 'Build a Squadron of only these things and get this particular general bonus.' It only applies to one ship, not a roster based prerequisite.

It is not done in exactly the same manner as you propose, certainly, which is forcing a player not to include other ships in his list.

It IS however clearly a squadron upgrade. Interceptors only, PS over 4 only, Title card, provides a particular benefit, it even comes with a handy Squadron name (Royal Guard).

It is EXACTLY in line with some of the ideas floated on this thread by others for how to accomplish Squadron upgrades.

I can include any other ship with any other upgrades I like in that roster. That's a title card. It modifies one vessel. A Squadron Upgrade would be "If you only include TIE Interceptors in your list, you do not lose an action for overlapping your own ships."

Instead of discussing the examples, you just need to focus on what the recommendation offers. This idea has been around since launch, and has already existed in several games. The idea is if you meet the prerequisites you receive a bonus. The question is, then, does the game need this? Do enough players demand this sort of thing that it is wise for FFG to consider it? The fact is, as much as I like the idea, and was an early supporter, I don't see it happening. At least not for awhile. It is more or less a scenario with official status, and you should be encouraged to create this on your own and play with your friends.

By the way the Royal guard title is really not what i had in mind, because my idea would be more difficult to playtest and implement, but afterwards it would be much simpler since not every ship of the squadron would need to have a separate card. Also this is not restrictive. Royal guard costs 0 and thus plain buffs a certain sort of Interceptors. Also you are not limited to a certain sort of ship. You can take one Interceptor and whatever else you want. And essentially that is the msin difference and also what i don't like about it.

The main reason to create this thread was because i wanted a possibility to create thematic fluff lists, and actually motivate people to do so. Royal guard is sure a fine card which i actually like and will play, but it's not accomplishing what i had in mind. That would go further than this. So i don't entirely like where the development is going here, and i hope FFG will in the future come to the same conclusion and create something more like the squadron lists.

Therefore i am trying here to convince people of the idea, because only then it would perhaps have a chance to get heard by FFG

As has been stated, the real risk with any idea like this is unbalancing what is otherwise a very finely balanced game.

The suggestion that was just made, for instance, is quite powerful. The idea that restricting yourself to one ship type grants you a bonus is problematic, because I think we can agree the TIE swarm and the 4 X-Wing builds really do not need any help!

Where I can see this concept working is in the metagame related to squadron-building and deployment. If I were doing this for modern gaming, for instance, I could easily see "AWACS: your opponent must deploy all ships before you, regardless of pilot skill." How do you pay for that? I don't know yet. Maybe each player gets to pick one and only one squadron upgrade.

Instead of discussing the examples, you just need to focus on what the recommendation offers. This idea has been around since launch, and has already existed in several games. The idea is if you meet the prerequisites you receive a bonus. The question is, then, does the game need this? Do enough players demand this sort of thing that it is wise for FFG to consider it? The fact is, as much as I like the idea, and was an early supporter, I don't see it happening. At least not for awhile. It is more or less a scenario with official status, and you should be encouraged to create this on your own and play with your friends.

By creating good examples i show that it would be possible to do it. And i have never seen that idea expressed or discussed about until i created the thread.

Creating examples isn't the issue. You have to do that to illustrate your point. I think some people were going off track and discussing the example in particular.

Just spitballing some other ideas based on my concept from above.

"Rebel Spy" (Rebel player only) - before finalizing your squad, your opponent must tell you how many ships are in their squad, and how many are large/small.

"Star Destroyer Barrage" (Empire only) - Immediately before the battle begins, roll one die for each enemy ship. Resolve any [hit] or [critical hit] result as 1 point of damage.

"Guerrilla Tactics" (Rebel only) - if your total squadron point cost is 90 or less, receive +3 victory points for each enemy ship destroyed.

"Sabotage!" - any time the enemy fires a secondary weapon, roll one evade die. On an [evade] result, that weapon is destroyed before the attack is resolved. Then discard this card.

It becomes somewhat difficult to come up with a lot of these, since this game lacks any rules for morale, logistics, etc. But I think making them all take effect outside of the normal game really is the answer if you want to try something like this.

Well the game after all is not that finely balanced if you admit that Swarms and X-Wings don't need any help. By that you also say that other ship types or specific pilots need a hand. Just see it as a tool to further balance it on top of creating a more thematic approach to listbuilding. As stated you can also buff red squadron X-Wings with some minor stuff for example that are priced so you can't take a lot of equipment on top of your X-Wings or no named pilot because they cost more than Rookies.

The out of game buffs are nice actually but i think there are some squadrons where you can go a little further than that concerning bonuses. Limiting yourself to onky certain ship types, named pilot and also equipment really is more of a cost to pay than you might think. Of course they can't go and give bonuses to lists that are already on top of the meta.

I'll put it this way: I do not want anything that fundamentally changes how the basic game plays. That's already pretty solidly balanced and approaching the limit of what I can introduce new players to without them suffering a stroke.

The TIE swarm is a very strong build that needs no more advantages, but it is not unbeatable. I do not think there are ANY unbeatable builds in this game. There are a few that are more frustrating than others, but using a system like this to try to fix that is a major mistake, IMO.

I'll put it this way: I do not want anything that fundamentally changes how the basic game plays. That's already pretty solidly balanced and approaching the limit of what I can introduce new players to without them suffering a stroke.

The TIE swarm is a very strong build that needs no more advantages, but it is not unbeatable. I do not think there are ANY unbeatable builds in this game. There are a few that are more frustrating than others, but using a system like this to try to fix that is a major mistake, IMO.

Every ship, pilot, upgrade FFG releases changes the meta after all. Thats just the way things go, squadron cards or not.

And i am very happy that actually there has not been change in the form of power creep until now. We can see that because Tie Swarms or X-Wings remain the backbones of the respective fleets and very competitive. But there still has been a lot of movement in the game. Other competitive builds have come to challenge the old builds. That shows that FFG actually know what they're doing.

I expect 3 things from squadron cards in the form i have proposed them.

1) (and thats the most important one to me) Offer a possibility to assemble formations of ships, pilots equipment thematically, be it a military formation or a group of ships and people having flown together in the movies or books... And for that limitation you should get some small but not meta-changing rewards.

2) There can also be a balancing aspect to it. You can buff formations of ships and pilots that are not often used or generally seen as "underpowered" and uncompetitive. There are such ships, as in any game that is just undeniable. In those cases the buffs offered by the squadron bonus can be a bit more substantial but not a lot. Because anyway as i explained: meta is changing constantly whether you like it or not. And i have no problem with that as long as new is not always better automatically. But where would the problem be if a formation of Tie advanced would suddenly be on par with a Tie Swarm or HSF list. I would not mind this.

3) This would lead not only to a bigger variety of competitive lists and also a better game experience because you can get more easily involved, absorbed by the whole universe that Star Wars is and that we love, even on competitive level where normally you would just take cookie cutter builds.

I'll put it this way: I do not want anything that fundamentally changes how the basic game plays. That's already pretty solidly balanced and approaching the limit of what I can introduce new players to without them suffering a stroke.

The TIE swarm is a very strong build that needs no more advantages, but it is not unbeatable. I do not think there are ANY unbeatable builds in this game. There are a few that are more frustrating than others, but using a system like this to try to fix that is a major mistake, IMO.

Even experienced gamers are in a bit over their heads if I throw every currently available ship/option at them. Analysis paralysis sets in. What is needed is an easier path to get from 1 X-Wing versus 2 TIE Fighters to the whole suite currently available, not anything that makes it more needlessly complex.

If some idea from this format can be found that expands the game or makes it easier to deploy the many options available, that's excellent! If it's just adding complexity for the sake of more options, I'm strongly against it.

Even experienced gamers are in a bit over their heads if I throw every currently available ship/option at them. Analysis paralysis sets in. What is needed is an easier path to get from 1 X-Wing versus 2 TIE Fighters to the whole suite currently available, not anything that makes it more needlessly complex.

If some idea from this format can be found that expands the game or makes it easier to deploy the many options available, that's excellent! If it's just adding complexity for the sake of more options, I'm strongly against it.

Then all that is really needed is a set of well balanced pairings that teach a bit at a time.

I would rather see it as a balancing and option increasing addition rather than a fluff one. As previously stated, FFG has done an awesome job with balance but that makes the few omissions/overcosts glaring; this could be the fix or this could be the thing that finally breaks balance (especially if xwings are getting better)... FFG is the game company to do it right, from what we've seen so far, but I'm not totally convinced it's what is best for the game AT THIS MOMENT.

This sounds like a great idea but to make it work I would think it would have to cost points. If not then it would be a requirement to field a competitive fleet as many squadrons can already field great fleets as it is currently.

Good thinking and I am enjoying reading this thread ForceM!

I would love to see balanced squad build rules. some many fighter which gets you so many support, interceptors, assault, bombers, etc... Many balanced squads get a point modifier for different craft.

Not because it's easy or hard, but for the fun of it. More balanced builds give more variety within a game and less spam lists. Also as long as the ship point systems work people who do want squads can build however they choose.

But with squad rules as an option we get the best of both worlds. AND... squad rules with missions, lots and lots of missions. Then we get, build your own; head to head; squads; scenarios; etc... everyone wins, the world is at piece; people are happy; die you rebel scum.

I get what Rakky says. It might break balance if done wrong. But then every new addition coming out might break balance if done wrong.

I don't get the discussion about squadrons cards being too complicated for beginners. There are so many options even right now that this is too much for beginners. And more are coming out... So what's the problem, nobody asks that beginners should play more than with a starter set for a time, before they really get into the game.