I came up with this idea while reading a post made in another thread about pilot skills. So credits to all who posted there, especially Frazio and the OP.

With more and more distinct squadrons and formations coming into the game (recently the royal guard, Rogue squadron, 181st) i thought it might make sense for FFG to offer a possibility to give players a chance to really specialize into one squadron or ship type as they existed in fluff. So the player could if he want limit himself to certain ships and pilots but get a bonus for that, using a special card type limiting his listbuilding somewhat but offering something even cooler in return. This would be purely optional so anyone not doing it would not be handicapped but also not get any bonus. These cards could be called Squadron roster cards (or whatever FFG wants to call them).

The cards would limit what ships, named pilots and equipment you could use, but if you accept this and stay within the limits of the list it would give you a huge benefit for doing so.

If you know the Warmachine tabketop game by Privateer Press, you will know the principle of how this works more or less (for example Strykers Storm Legion...) They even have tiered lists where you could access more bonuses, the more restrictions from the list are fulfilled. That would possibly be overkill for X-Wing, but i think the general idea is great.

Example 1

So in X-Wing for example a Gold Squadron list could use only Y-Wings and the only available named pilot would be Dutch, but would get cheaper secondary weapons or get some extra rerolls with them, or all their Y-Wings would get a Crew slot for free... There are lots of possibilities for this.

Example 2

There could also be more or less restrictive or fluff based formations (instead of purely military designations like "Obsidian squadron") like for example a smuggler task force, limiting ships to Rebel operatives, one or two HWK named pilots that were smugglers at some time, the Outer Rim smuggler, Han Solo (maybe Chewie too) and possibly Luke flying cover for them in his X-Wing. Of course they would need to give them a bonus making sense there, like that they all had Pilot skill 10 for the first 4 turns because imperials were not prepared to fight them, they just wanted to check cargo and were surprised that they have to fight now... Bajillions of possibilities there!

If you like the idea feel free to find other examples of what would make sense here what different thematic fighting units could have for restrictions and bonuses. Or help me to refine this still pretty raw idea so perhaps one day we can convince FFG of it! Thanks in advance!

Needs to be modified a bit and limited to certain formats, but I can this working out decently.

It could be an effective way to correct little oversights like the suggested Y-wings, or perhaps a squad of Tie Advanced (to my knowledge generally considered overpriced) to be a point or 2 cheaper if qualify as "Black Squadron".

In the interest of keeping things simple, you could simply offer a squadron upgrade similar to title upgrades. Available for specific ship types, providing particular bonuses, with perhaps a limitation of no more than one squadron title type can be used.

Alternately, a squadron upgrade could be bought for a single ship, that benefits all ships of that type. For example, Red Squadron could be a squadron upgrade available for X-Wings, that would affect all X-Wings of a lower PS.

What i had in mind would be just a kind of meta-card for the list with restrictions and benefits. So you would bring that card and put it next to your ship cards do people would know: Ah that guy is playing Rogue squadron, the restrictions are X and the benefits Y.

Renegade Squadron:

*Han Solo

*Chewbacca

*Col Serra

can only have one Yt-1300. Must contain one of the above.

All ships gain boost. If already have boost gains shields +1

Only crew upgrade allowed are Chewbacca or non-unique.

Keeping it simpler like the title cards sounds like a good idea. I like that it goes with a certain ship and it effects that ship and all lower PS pilots. Should work until end of game though, not just elimination of that pilot.

That being said, it would probably have to be pretty expensive.

Don't get me wrong, this is a fun idea, but I'm really curious as to how this worked out in Warmachines.

In my experience, set bonuses like this inevitably turn into a requirement, rather than the flavorful bonus they're introduced as.

I had this idea a week or so ago, and am totally behind it. I really want to see a rogue squadron card for use when using only x-wings. Have it grant a free howlrunner reroll and cost 2 to 3 points per ship. Not broken, but fits with the Rogue's reputation. There are dozens of options. By making it restrictive in build options it makes running it non-mandatory. Maybe have it require PS5+ as well(differing by squadron)

Don't get me wrong, this is a fun idea, but I'm really curious as to how this worked out in Warmachines.

In my experience, set bonuses like this inevitably turn into a requirement, rather than the flavorful bonus they're introduced as.

For Example Storm Squadron:

You can only take Tie Advanced of a certain skill level plus Maarek.

If you meet the requirememts of the list, every Ship gains a free elite pilot slot with a certain elite skill.

If you actually take Maarek he gets a personal bonus like... Once per turn, if a ship in his squadron scores a critical hit and is in range 1-2 that ship may use Maareks pilot ability.

Also in this case i deliberately took something nobody is playing. Then you can give it a solid buff without hesitating. But if a squadron card would give additional power to an already very strong list (for example you would reward people for playing a Tue Swarm) then they need to be very careful of not to create a monster. In other words don't buff lists that are already on top of the meta!

Pilot skill minimums would help with that. Not allowing Academy Pilots into Black squadron for instance, and pricing the ability so only 6 ties could be used, 5 with a couple named ties would stop it from overpowering Tie Swarms further.

Even having one that adds 1 to the cost of each tie kills an 8 tie swarm(1 cost per ship), although it still allows for 6+ Howlrunner, but with only 3 points for upgrades. 2 per ship is even more restrictive on swarms.

Wargame: AirLand Battle does this. (for those not familiar, it's a fairly "realistic" RTS game of conventional land battles set in the Cold War. Great game.)

In that game you build a "deck" of available units from your side (essentially NATO vs. Warsaw Pact). They can be whatever you want: American M1A1s mixed in with German artillery units, etc.

However, if you commit to using only units of a specific nationality, you get bonuses, such as access to prototype units you wouldn't otherwise get. If you further commit to an even more realistic subset of that nationality (for example, airborne or marine units which do not have access to heavy tanks), then you get further balancing bonuses. Then you can go even further and commit to only using units available up until 1980, for instance, and you get even more bonuses.

This system adds some nice challenges and replayability to the game, as well as flavor, but I don't honestly know that it improves the game itself. It might make a nice addition to a campaign system, but I'm not fully convinced there are enough options currently available in X-Wing for it to work as nicely.

It's a cool idea, but you'd have to be VERY careful with balance, and I think it would be a near-impossible line to walk.

Some, like the Y-wings, might not be too bad, but consider a Rogue Squadron one... The X-wing is already one of (if not the) best ship in the game. Limiting you to X-wings in order to get a boost isn't exactly a hardship. There are plenty of semi-useless upgrades to exclude, as well. Frazio's example falls into this vein. You mean I have to take either Han or Chewie, and give up Nien Nunb and Luke-as-Gunner, and in return I get a free 4-point upgrade for every ship? Where exactly is the drawback?

In practical use, these sorts of improves tend to either be OP or useless. The only real gameplay benefit would be taking underwhelming ships and bringing them up to snuff... but that is an incredibly tight target to hit, and it means you can't actually do what people want to see (such as Rogue Squadron). Costing universal advantages is incredibly difficult, because the value is variable. Consider Frazio's again - if I do it with 2 ships, I get +8 points. If 3, it's +12. That's a pretty big swing.

The practical reality on this is that it tends to either restrict what people want, so it's never used, or the restriction is meaningless and just makes the best even better. Nifty idea, but generally bad for the game.

Also in this case i deliberately took something nobody is playing. Then you can give it a solid buff without hesitating. But if a squadron card would give additional power to an already very strong list (for example you would reward people for playing a Tue Swarm) then they need to be very careful of not to create a monster. In other words don't buff lists that are already on top of the meta!

Interesting. Well, it's definitely something they'd have to be really careful about, but you do point out that there is a place for it. I keep hearing that in a lot of cases, low pilot skill ships are actually better because they're more efficient. Creating a bonus for grouping together high skilled pilots might be a way to make them viable.

The reason I suggested a title upgrade as an alternative is that it could be paid for every ship, which would go a long way towards keeping balance. I prefer the idea of having a single squadron type within a list, rather than allowing you to mix this type of elite upgrade. It would be similar to unique upgrades, but rather than only have one of each specific card/squadron, in this case you could only have one type of squadron. For example, if you use a Rogue Squadron title upgrade on one ship, you can put Rogue squadron on any other ships you like but cannot have a second, different squadron type in your list. Squadron upgrades should be keyed to formation/cooperation, in order to differentiate the upgrade from the mere fact that a pilot happens to be a member of a particular squadron and how he operates as an individual (which is what we have the pilot cards for).

How about:

Rogue Squadron: 3 points (Squadron Upgrade, X-Wing Only)

If you are within Range 1 of another ship with the Rogue Squadron title, when attacking you may reroll one attack die.

Black Squadron: 2 points (Squadron Upgrade, TIE Fighter Only)

When another ship with the Black Squadron title is hit, if you are within Range 1 you may suffer two *hits* to cancel that *hit*

Gold Squadron: 2 points (Squadron Upgrade, Y-Wing Only)

When attacking, if another ship with the Gold Squadron title within Range 2 has a Target Lock you may use that target lock to fire a torpedo as if you had the target lock.

I am sure we can come up with others.

Edit: To be clear, you would have to buy this upgrade for each ship in order to give it the bonus.

It's a cool idea, but you'd have to be VERY careful with balance, and I think it would be a near-impossible line to walk.

Some, like the Y-wings, might not be too bad, but consider a Rogue Squadron one... The X-wing is already one of (if not the) best ship in the game. Limiting you to X-wings in order to get a boost isn't exactly a hardship. There are plenty of semi-useless upgrades to exclude, as well. Frazio's example falls into this vein. You mean I have to take either Han or Chewie, and give up Nien Nunb and Luke-as-Gunner, and in return I get a free 4-point upgrade for every ship? Where exactly is the drawback?

In practical use, these sorts of improves tend to either be OP or useless. The only real gameplay benefit would be taking underwhelming ships and bringing them up to snuff... but that is an incredibly tight target to hit, and it means you can't actually do what people want to see (such as Rogue Squadron). Costing universal advantages is incredibly difficult, because the value is variable. Consider Frazio's again - if I do it with 2 ships, I get +8 points. If 3, it's +12. That's a pretty big swing.

The practical reality on this is that it tends to either restrict what people want, so it's never used, or the restriction is meaningless and just makes the best even better. Nifty idea, but generally bad for the game.

You are right that one could bring subpar ships and also certain pilot choices to a more playable level as i wanted to show with the Storm squadron example. And there is a big greyzone between op and useless really, one just has to use a bit of imagination, know the game very well and playtest a lot (exactly what FFGs playtesters should do essentially).

You can really play around with restrictions too. You can say that for certain formations only X-Wings are allowed, or you can say that only Red squadron is allowed for example (because everyone takes rookies normally to save points). Or you define pilot skill minimums or maximums for such a formation. Plus you have named characters to pkay around with. You can do all of this just as needed. If you are more restrictive, you give a more noticeable bonus. If you are less restrictive you don't. And the more pilots and ships we will have at our disposal, the easier this will be. Also nobody says that certain ships can't meet the criteria for 2 or more of these squadron cards.

Also as stated i could imagine military formations like a certain fighter wing or a certain squadron playing a role, but also stuff like a Bounty hunter raiding party or certain mixes of ships and characters we know from the movies or books... I don't know but for me this would even add a lot more flair to the game, always considering that they would need to be careful not to destroy game balance. But hey even now balance is not really perfect and they could also use this idea to further improve it if they do it right!

Not saying the entire idea is nonsense. Just pointing out that any time you start doing things that can affect entire builds it becomes VERY difficult to balance well, thus making it a high-risk addition to the game. I was using the suggestions as example cases in what can go wrong, not necessarily dismissing it because those ideas were bad.

Not to mention it's perfectly in theme with the game itself. That counts for more than a little possible imbalance.(It isn't even a hard thing to balance.)

For instance

Wraith squadron

Requirements, A-wings and X-wings.(no other ship may be used. Minimum Pilot skill 3

2 points per ship.

Friendly ships within range one may use this ships unmodified primary weapon and agility statistics.)

2 green squad pilots and 1 Red squadron Pilot, and Wedge comes out to a team with just a few points less than 100. It complements well, but is far from broken, while making A-wings useful and focusing on squad synergy.(And it disallows jacking Biggs's defense sky high and abusing Stealth Device Defense passed around.)

The Game designers should, in practice, be designing these with specific builds in mind that are "The most efficient." Same as every other card, and it limits construction inherently making breaking it difficult.

The reason I suggested a title upgrade as an alternative is that it could be paid for every ship, which would go a long way towards keeping balance. I prefer the idea of having a single squadron type within a list, rather than allowing you to mix this type of elite upgrade. It would be similar to unique upgrades, but rather than only have one of each specific card/squadron, in this case you could only have one type of squadron. For example, if you use a Rogue Squadron title upgrade on one ship, you can put Rogue squadron on any other ships you like but cannot have a second, different squadron type in your list. Squadron upgrades should be keyed to formation/cooperation, in order to differentiate the upgrade from the mere fact that a pilot happens to be a member of a particular squadron and how he operates as an individual (which is what we have the pilot cards for).

How about:

Rogue Squadron: 3 points (Squadron Upgrade, X-Wing Only)

If you are within Range 1 of another ship with the Rogue Squadron title, when attacking you may reroll one attack die.

Black Squadron: 2 points (Squadron Upgrade, TIE Fighter Only)

When another ship with the Black Squadron title is hit, if you are within Range 1 you may suffer two *hits* to cancel that *hit*

Gold Squadron: 2 points (Squadron Upgrade, Y-Wing Only)

When attacking, if another ship with the Gold Squadron title within Range 2 has a Target Lock you may use that target lock to fire a torpedo as if you had the target lock.

I am sure we can come up with others.

Edit: To be clear, you would have to buy this upgrade for each ship in order to give it the bonus.

Squadron Cards like i suggested would not cost any points. The cost would be that you are limiting yourself in choices of ships, pilots and probably equipment. I can perfectly imagine that In such a squadron, Han could not take a standard gunner or Nien Numb or exampe, but could take Luke, or even be forced to take him and the Millenium Falcon title in certain lists. Those restrictions then lead to smaller advantages because you restrict yourself to something very thematic that is not exactly a cookie cutter build...

Not to mention it's perfectly in theme with the game itself. That counts for more than a little possible imbalance.(It isn't even a hard thing to balance.)

For instance

Wraith squadron

Requirements, A-wings and X-wings.(no other ship may be used. Minimum Pilot skill 3

2 points per ship.

Friendly ships within range one may use this ships unmodified primary weapon and agility statistics.)

2 green squad pilots and 1 Red squadron Pilot, and Wedge comes out to a team with just a few points less than 100. It complements well, but is far from broken, while making A-wings useful and focusing on squad synergy.(And it disallows jacking Biggs's defense sky high and abusing Stealth Device Defense passed around.)

The Game designers should, in practice, be designing these with specific builds in mind that are "The most efficient." Same as every other card, and it limits construction inherently making breaking it difficult.

I also find it a very drastic bonus. If i get this right X-Wings could use 3 agility and A-Wings 3 attacks right? That would be quite difficult to handle. Just make it small, fluff-based changes. That way the ships don't need to cost 2 points more...

My turn... Wraith Squadron:

X-Wings and A-Wings with minimum 3 PS only (i'd love to replace the A's with Tie Interceptors ot Defenders when they come out just like in the Books really but i don't think that would ever be allowed by FFG)

Only Wedge, Tycho, Janson as characters at the moment as nobody else of Wraith Squadron is out or planned atm.

Bonus for restricting to the list:

Every ship can once per game take a stress token to become the target of an attack instead of another ship, if it would be a legal target (they would die for each other) Also Every ship can once per game take a stress token to give a blue Target lock or Focus token to a friendly ship in range 1 (they are an awesome team)

Bonus for taking one of the named guys:

One named pilot in the list may also once per game reroll all dice of either a defense or attack roll.

I won't define the equipment restrictions here since it would be a long list, but you could limit certain things to 1 per list or disallow them, or you could make some upgrades mandatory, like certain droids, just as an idea.

Not overly powerful as buffs because there are tight restrictions to most of them, and it avoids making ships cheaper or costier. Also you can't take Rookies or prototypes here. A lot of very competitive choices are also just unavailable to the list (and that's the only cost you should pay for such a squadron card!)

Make it interesting. This isn't any more deadly than 5 interceptors and much harder to fly. I'm not big on fluff.

And the key to making things like this is simplicity.

If you make a Wraith Squadron card that says

Only A-wings and X-wings. No Garven, No Biggs, no Arvel, no Porkins.

It's just too much. I mean, just having Biggs on a team with an A-wing or B-wing breaks continuity, you can't worry about stuff like that.

At least this way it's interesting and gives a chance to ships people don't like(A-wings).

Simplicity has been an important aspect of x-wing from the beginning. The base gameplay is immensley simple. Squadrons should be in keeping with that.

It's an interesting idea but having a squadron card sit off to the side and affect the game that drastically, wont work. I like the idea but the power creep is obvious and there would be no way around it. These squadron cards would become a must if anyone wanted to be competitive. I play Wargame: Airland Battle and the creep in that game is extremely apparent. I have played many other miniature and cards games that add something like this and the balance just never happens. I like the way FFG is doing it. The Emperors Guards Tie is a perfect example. If they were to bring out squadron cards they would have to be ship by ship priced and I believe they should focus on getting unused cards used. Example below

Red Squadron xwing (1) point: Only Available on Garven and Red Squadron Pilot. Adds the "elite pilot talent" to its upgrade bar

or

Grey Squadron ywing (1) point: Only available on Horton and Grey Squadron Pilot. Adds the "copilot upgrade" to its upgrade bar.

This would be an easy way to add elite talents to ywings although I use red squadron for that example. Everyone uses gold and rookies, you RARELY see the PS 4 ships because they don't really have a reason to be fielded. its either gold and rookies or named pilots. These upgrades would give them a reason to be played. As for Rogue squadron I think they will get their fill when the Rebel Aces pack comes out. I really think if this was to be implemented make the PS4 rebel ships worth something. Since the b-wing came out I have never seen anyone even talk about dagger squadron. It's always blues with HLC or something. Anyways that's just what I think. Having it be an upgrade card would also help in keeping the clutter off the map itself.

Last thing I got this idea because Black Squadron has an elite talent but Red Squadron doesn't Imperials don't need this as much but a 181st ship upgrade card would be cool. The individual Squadron cards let you address anything that needs to be addressed without altering the actual game.

That would work too, but it's not really interesting. That's much easier to do with the named ship upgrades, akin to the Imperial Guard add on.

I feel like it should be something that forces good teamwork amongst your ships. That's what Squadrons do. They work together.

So of the last 3 posts one guy says that there would need to be more noticeable buffs to make certain ships more interesting. I don't like that because with that the squadron cards would really become mandatory. They should remain optional.

The other one says that powercreep would happen and therefore not a good idea. I have played 40k and i know exactly what power creep is. And i played Warmachine were power creep is not really existent. Like in every game there are better and worse units and combos but its not like in 40k where the newest army = the best army. And Warmachine has a thematic list system. It is not mandatory and not a lot of people use it on tournaments because there are good units they would not be able to take in their lists otherwise. And not being able to take people like Biggs or Howlrunner in certain lists is s big sacrifice. Idk what is more competitive. A tailored list without limitations can still be stronger than a thematic lists with a few little bonuses here and there. Even without any ship costing more.

If this was done and there i think we agree, it would need to be carefully. It should offer an interesting option, but not in the way that everyone would absolutely need to do it to stand any chance. And that's difficult, but really far from impossible.

The ship title idea, i find it pretty awkward really. Essentially because you make give an obsidian Tie a Black squadron title in the end or a Rogue squadron pilot becomes a Red squadron pilot suddenly. That's pretty confusing, and its in the end nothing else then another upgrade instead of something new. So i would like it if the royal guard would stay the only one of that sort instead of making it a general rule of thumb. But hey that's just me.

I don't see why the squadron name on the card matters. I mean, Luke was Red 5 then Rogue squadron, and I said noticable but difficult to use, and affecting the design of the whole squad.

That's not powercreep. Powercreep is suddenly getting agility 5 ships with 4 shields and 3 Hull. Or 13 total health and a 360 degree fire arc for the cost of two X-wings.(Oh wait... Not that it was that bad, but still powercreep) Having a few weaker squads given a costly update isn't powercreep. Having noticable upgrade cards isn't either.

I don't think anybody has had a single idea so powerful it would become the go to build by any means.