Hi all,

there's some talk in several topics of continuing the development of the beta rules separate from FFG, now that they seem to have dropped them. I figured it'd be a good idea to collect this discussion in a new topic, instead of the fractured posts we have now.

While it might be premature to do this (we still don't know what FFG will show us in November), I like the idea. I don't want to go back to OW and I think the beta rules could become great. So I'm in. I don't know if I'll ever have enough time, but I'm in.

I like the idea of a collaborative effort, but I also know that many of us want to go in different directions with this. So, what I'm going to do is post my "wish list", relative to the current beta, below. If you want to post your wish lists, do that. Those of us who can find some common ground, maybe we can take this somewhere.

Please don't use this as an old beta vs. new beta argument. The point of this thread is a place of discussion for those who think the old beta rules are worth working on. If you don't feel this way, don't worry: FFG has your back. You can safely ignore this thread.

Below I've listed what I liked, didn't like, or just felt need change in the beta rules.

I've tried to keep suggestions for changes to a minimum (because that's a separate debate - so far I'm just looking for people who share my point of view), but a few snuck in there. I've put those in italics, to have them stand out.

I'm ready to debate pretty much anything, but the ones I've marked as a "Big Deal" are just that to me. I'm not likely to be willing to give up on these, without some serious persuasion.

If you agree - or disagree with good arguments - with most of the below, and you have an interest in "finishing" the current beta, I'd love to hear from you.

Character Creation

• I love the new split. Keep that.

• I would like to see a little more choice and differentiation added. I’ve always loved Advantages/Disadvantages from GURPS to flesh out a character, but they’re hard to get an overview of: Maybe a choice of 5 different advantages/disadvantages (“choose one of each”) per step in character creation could be good.

• Big Deal: While I think it’s fine that Dark Heresy focuses on the Inquisition and human-level adversaries, I want this edition to do what the old ones promised (and failed at): I want a single system encompassing all races and variances in the 40k universe. I want to be able to build a grot and a Carnifex, and I want them to function in the same system. This might not be that big a problem. I’ve yet to hear a compelling argument for why 100+ Characteristics shouldn’t work (and, indeed, the DH2 beta seems to feel the same). I’m torn whether “race” should be a separate step in character creation or an Elite Advance, but that’s a discussion for another day.

Skills

• Minor modifications at most. I think they really nailed it here. Rules for Assistance and Specialist might need a quick look.

Talents

• I’m torn here. I like the idea of a big talent pool, but I also like that the talent trees made it easier for new players to get a quick overview.

• I like that the talent trees, like many other parts of the game, are so modular. It’s easy to expand the game by adding a new talent tree. It was always possible to just add new talents, of course, but it quickly became hellish to keep an overview.

• One suggestion is to keep the grouping of talents, but divide them into tiers (similar to BC/OW). Once you’ve taken 2 Tier1 talents, you can start taking from Tier2. Once you’ve taken 2 from Tier2, you can start taking from Tier3. Best of both worlds, I think.

Psychic Powers

• I’m very open here. The only thing I feel strongly about is that psychic powers should involve some risk.

• I’m leaning toward not wanting Psykers to be jacks-of-all-trades, like they seem to be in DH2 (basically being able to carry several types of weapons). I’d prefer psykers to be something completely unique and weird . Stuff like Dominate and Telepathy are more interesting than the weapon-powers.

Armoury

• I don’t think it’s necessary that all weapons are balanced against each other, but I do think that it’s vital that every weapon has a purpose . It shouldn’t always be the case that I will ignore Lasguns, just because I can afford Bolters. The existing system does this to a degree, but it could be done better.

• I think fluff-accuracy is slightly less important than gameplay, but not much. I would like to see both realized, at least to a degree.

• Big Deal: I want Penetration removed, or at least greatly simplified. A lot of combat slowdown could be solved here. Some weapons could retain a sort of penetration mechanic via Special Qualities.

• Big Deal: I want equipment quality (not just for weapons, but for armour and other gear as well!) to matter. I want modifications to be a big deal. I love that DH2 allowed a person to essentially keep improving their own gear (via the new repair system) - I think this could be expanded further (custom mods? Something akin to the Signature Wargear tables in DW?) .

• I love the carrying capacity system. The table needs some tweaks, but otherwise it’s a solid system.

Wounds

• I love the narrative effect of the wounds system but I hate looking up the tables. There’s work to be done here, but I really like the basic concept.

• Some sort of “high HP” system needs to go in. I think this is easily solved with modifying True Grit in the current system, but it’s a consideration to keep in mind if redesigning the Wounds system.

Action Points

• I like these, primarily because they cut down on the number of necessary combat actions.

• I think they’re difficult to keep track of for GMs controlling multiple guys. I don’t know how to solve this, but it’s something to consider.

Fatigue

• I like thinking of this as a separate HP score, that tracks your long-term readiness. I like that it’s more frequent but with a slower effect than DH1.

• I do think that there’s a little more work in keeping track of it relative to each of your characteristics. Might want to consider becoming Fatigued for all characteristics at the same threshold (ie. Tb).

Influence

• I’m a little torn here. I think I like Influence. I definitely don’t think a universal currency makes any sense in the setting.

• In relation to a point under character creation, I’d like the system to be universal. That means I’d like to be able to play, for example, Orks. Teef are setting-accurate currency. This could be argued both ways (Influence is more universal, so easier to use across civilizations vs. currency might make sense for some races). I’m very open, but it’s something to consider.

Subtlety

• I like the idea. I’m open to changes (we haven’t really gotten around to discussing this chapter on the forums yet).

Like your pushing of this topic very much.

I also feel the urge to act and it is a good idea to see if enough people could agree on an approach to go together.

I myself have a 12-element system I want to go towards:

1.) Keeping the new wound system and the new fatigue system

2.) Keep the new AP system, but improve the RoF in some way to be discussed

3.) Keep the new character creation system, but enhance it with more fleshed out home worlds, adding missing homeworld and background options, and add an additional step to the creation called "Motivation to join the Inquisition"

4.) Keep the new compact skills

5.) Keep the new characteristic increase concept

6.) Keep the new weapon profiles, weapon trait descriptions and condition desciptions and balance them out slightly

7.) Keep evade as an opposed test, cybernetic limitation and the agility restriction of armour

8.) Keep talent trees but make them more flexible; adding a martial arts tree

9.) Better scaling of Psy Rating, making Psy Power Trees more flexible and rework some powers (esp. divination)

10.) Return of rules for range modifiers, grappling, friendly fire and sneak melee attacks (exact shape to be discussed)

11.) Some kind of bonus for called shots by DoS

12.) Some kind of increase in weapon jams% when firing more thsn 1 bullet

If there are people out there, sharing this 12 keystone approach, I would love to work together to create something awesome.

If someone wants to put his or her bolter and chainsword under my banner, let me know.

Does anything I posted in Should Psychic Powers be more modular? give you what you want?

Like your idea - but if going this way, this means a lot of work.

I would be open towards such a concept, as I think the current concept is not so good at all.

It reminds of Rogue Trader, which had an interesting touch.

If enough people would be willing to join this idea as part of my proposed package, I would be willing to try that approach.

If I get feed back I'll try and make it work. At the moment I think my costs are too low.

So, if you could do that, it would be nice to get a concept for reworked Psykers.

If it would still go along with the new beta rules in general, all the better.

It should make sure, that:

- powers who built upon each other are logically connected

- the rise of Psy Rating has an appropriate rise of power

- psykers are still balanced with other classes

- the different psychic disciplines are each interesting

- pushing gives a real award, but also a real additional risk

- fettering really limits a power, but also limits risks

- try to include powers from DH1 and RT that were yet unused, if possible

Guess thats tricky...

If I get feed back I'll try and make it work. At the moment I think my costs are too low.

I'll try to give you some, but I'm in the middle of moving so it could take me a while. Please trust the interest is there.

My first draft for changes would be the following - I am open to adjustment ideas:

Weapon traits:
Accurate - new effect is granting a free aim or called-shot action
Inaccurate: may not do called shots
Reliable: chances for jams are 4% lower
Unreliable: chances for jams are 4% higher
Toxic: weakened is not only 1 round, but decreases X every turn by 1
Spray: no extreme ranges for spray possible.

Conditions:
Dazed: melee attacks against dazed get +10
Helpless: also the case if being attacked surprisingly in the back; light weapons and unarmed get Vengeful (8) or improve it by 2 steps if already having it
Immobilized: +10 for melee attacks against immobilized
Stunned: +20 for melee attacks against stunned

Combat:
Called shots get +1 damage per DoS
Friendly fire: if DoF 3+, a random other one is hit with 1 DoS; if the RoF was greater 1 then 1 more hit per additional DoF
Range modifiers:
- point blank up to 3m gives +30 (is not granted while being in melee)
- short gives +10 and is up to 25% of the range
- far is -10 and goes from 75% to 100% of the range
- extreme is up to 125% of the range and is at -30
- to make maths easier, the different ranges are noted in the sheet like this:
- Range 80 --> 80 (20, 60, 100)
RoF: new way: S/x/x as the old concept, but:
- shows number of shots for 1AP/2AP/3AP
- no more single-shot trait
- if a weapon needs more than 1AP to be fired it would like that way: -/1/- for needing 2AP tp fire 1 shot
- conversion for existing weapon will follow
- is also used for melee weapons
Surprise: surprised targets will be dazed for the first round of combat
Weapon Jams:
- if fired with 2AP and roF > 1, then jaming is 2% more likely. 4% if with 3 AP
- Example: S/2/4 Unreliable would have 88% for a 3 AP shot, 4% for 3 AP, 4% for unreliable

Spray Fire (optional): +5 per additional bullet fired over 1, but no chance of additional hits

Unarmed attacks against opponents armed with a melee weapon suffer -20

Weapon changes:
- shotgun gets +1 damage, concussive (0) on point blank, and -2 damage on far distance
- plasma pen goes down to 8 for pistol and 10 for gun
- melta pen goes up from 12 to 13
- boltgun and pistol get 3 Pen instead of 2

- Chain Weapons +1 damage (Axe, Blade, Sword)

- Improvised Weapons -1 damage

- Long Las & Las Pistol get Reliable

Flak Armour weight 15kg and Enforcer Carapce 12kg (exchanged)

Bodyglove gives +10 on tealth tests

Armour best version has Ag-Limit 5 higher; poor 5 lower

Armour-Limit is 10 lower everywhere (50-->40), but it doesnt hardcap. Instead, it halves the numbers above the cap. A Cap50 with Ag 70 would lead to effective Ag 60 (50 + 1/2*20)

So far for my first attempt to do an update 4 more details to come

Feel free to comment, so I can make changes if it makes sense.

Adding the new RoFs:

Name RoF New Bolt Pistol S/2/- Boltgun S/2/4 Storm Bolter S/4/8 Heavy Bolter S/6/10 Laspistol S/2/4 Lasgun S/4/8 Long-las -/1/2 Hot-shot Laspistol S/2/4 Hot-shot Lasgun S/4/8 Autopistol S/4/8 Stub Revolver S/2/3 Hand Cannon -/1/2 Autogun S/4/8 Shotgun -/1/2 Sniper Rifle -/1/2 Heavy Stubber S/6/10 Autocannon S/4/8 Inferno Pistol -/1/- Meltagun -/1/- Plasma Pistol -/1/2 Plasma Gun -/1/2 Hand Flamer -/1/- Flamer -/1/- Heavy Flamer -/-/1 Bolas -/1/- Bow -/1/- Crossbow S/2/4 Throwing Knife S/2/4 Grenade Launcher -/1/2 Missile Launcher -/-/1 Needle Pistol S/2/3 Needle Rifle S/2/3 Web Pistol S/2/4 Webber -/-/1 Frag Grenade -/1/- Hallucinogen Grenade -/1/- Haywire Grenade -/1/- Krak Grenade -/1/- Melta Bomb -/1/- Photon Flash Grenade -/1/- Smoke Grenade -/1/- Stun Grenade -/1/- Web Grenade -/1/-

Name RoF New Chainaxe -/1/2 Chainblade -/-/- Chainsword (WSb/2)-1 / (WSb/2) / (WSb/2)+1 Eviscerator -/-/1 Power Axe -/1/2 Power Fist -/1/- Power Maul -/1/2 Power Sword (WSb/2)-1 / (WSb/2) / (WSb/2)+1 Knife (Ab/2) / (Ab/2)+1 / (Ab/2)+2 Improvised (Ab/2)-1 / (Ab/2) / (Ab/2)+1 Sword (WSb/2)-1 / (WSb/2) / (WSb/2)+1 Staff -/1/- Warhammer -/1/- Whip -/1/2 Unarmed (Ab/2) / (Ab/2)+1 / (Ab/2)+2 Force Staff -/1/- Force Sword (WSb/2)-1 / (WSb/2) / (WSb/2)+1 Electro-Flail -/1/2 Shock Maul -/1/2 Hunting Lance -/1/-

New Traits:

"Unnatural Toughness", with Wounds only giving +3/+6 on future wounds and "Invincible" with only +2/+4

New Carrying capacities: 1 8kg 2 16kg 3 24kg 4 32kg 5 48kg 6 72kg 7 100kg 8 150kg 9 250kg 10 400kg 11 650kg 12 1000kg

Talent changes:

Crushing Blow needs 1 more AP instead of reducing RoA

Lightning Attack may reduce AP costs for an attack by 1 (not below 1), but reduces damage by 2

Precise Blows Called Shot can be used until RoA instead of until 1 shot, but without the damage bonus

Marksman: aim actions grant +15 instead of +10

Equipment & Ammunition:

Telescopic Sight: extreme and far range categories count as 1 closer (extreme becomes far, far becomes regular)

Fragmentation Rounds 1 bullet less for 2AP, 2 less for 3AP; Storm

Though I am firmly in the new beta camp, I would suggest an alternative to the wounds/tables systems. Please be aware I have only touched briefly on the idea so the details would need to be worked out but the basics are that the dice toll could be used to figure out the wound effect rather than looking up tables. Perhaps the degrees of success determining the effect type whether it be minor, fatigue loss, stat loss or life threatening. You could then use the dice roll to hit as the severity in a similar fashion to the rules for determining hit location.

I think that if you were to follow this you would need to keep the system a little loose and allow for some creative interpretation, but you could have the flavour of the wound effects without the tables. It probably won't be perfect but lets be honest what system is.

E

Agreed Eldath. The wound Effects concept is exactly what my group wants, but the execution is much too cumbersome.

So, if you could do that, it would be nice to get a concept for reworked Psykers.

If it would still go along with the new beta rules in general, all the better.

It should make sure, that:

- powers who built upon each other are logically connected

- the rise of Psy Rating has an appropriate rise of power

- psykers are still balanced with other classes

- the different psychic disciplines are each interesting

- pushing gives a real award, but also a real additional risk

- fettering really limits a power, but also limits risks

- try to include powers from DH1 and RT that were yet unused, if possible

Guess thats tricky...

If I can't get the first 2 I've failed, balance is mostly cost, interesting is why I need feedback, I was thinking pushing gives up to + PR per corruption bonus with +15 risk instead of +10, fettering doesn't exist per say and the powers are what I'm on at the moment.

If I get feed back I'll try and make it work. At the moment I think my costs are too low.

I'll try to give you some, but I'm in the middle of moving so it could take me a while. Please trust the interest is there.

Thanks.

Hey folks! I'm quite "new" here.. had to create a new account due to loss of the other one .

I'm still reading reading lots of the beta part (without the updates yet - only a single look at the armory update).

I will name some beta things that i really like, and dislike - as earlier mentioned, not everything is readen(?).

1: Character Creation

1.1: New character creation system is far better than the earlier ones. I still want one more step, as GauntZero mentions. In RT, you have lots of things you have to choose from, and i like that. Maybe make those a bit more "character deep", not just like this; "hey, i'm just trying to survive this ****.. give me 1 more wound"..

1.2: More different home worlds is always nice. Maybe make a "switch" like in RT, where you change one homeworld for another.

1.3: Always let the players answer how true they are to the Emperor (and their Inquisitor?). Not by a scale or anything.. Just like the usual questions, but with suggestions how to answer those in an easy way.

2: Skills

2.1: Nice to see some fewer skills, with some more subskills. Some of them might need some few modifications*

2.2: Some skills might be used in combination with another stat that is not "totally" related to it. An example is Athletics - lifting and pushing. It's find that you get the option to lift or carry x times the normal value, but why not suggest an toughness test too? Sure a character might be strong enough to lift 40kg extra weight, but for how long (fx, 1 DoS would be 10-30 mins, 2 for 30-60 mins ect, without problems)? I hope you understand what i'm saying here .
2.3: Else i like the newer skill system. Nothing else to point out.

3: Talents

3.1: I don't really like "talent trees" and stuff. After playing OW and BC, i like the new talent system. Go back to OW/BC and i will be fine.

4: Gear and Armory

4.1: Not much is seen here, yet. A few updates on the weaponry made me a bit more happy, for fluff and combat. Lot's of my friends and I turned the table just by looking at plasma not penetrating a power armour. Atleast they fixed that.

4.2: I'm really happy to see the new features of cybernetics and biotics. As common Tech-follower RP'er, i'm so glad to find those "non-fleshy" things a bit more balanced. Unnatural Intelligence and Strength is retarded and "easy to get" in BC (playing a Heretek with 2d10+18 power fist on normal strikes with so many biotics and other stuff, is just ruining the combat scene). Maybe make some "lucky/unlucky" checks to see if the cybernetic/biotic implants (dis)function.

4.3: Not much is read here else, still have to read all those special rules and upgrades ect.

5: AP system

5.1: As Inquisitor (boardgame) fan, i liked this new feature, but also disliked it (as how it is used here in DH2). I wanted the amount of actions scale due to intelligence/perception/agility, but in some way still limit it. How to upscale and also limit is still a question to me, and maybe complicated.. But i will try to figure out how to balance it.

5.2: Always let creatures of extraordinary abilities being able to do "extraordinary things in a short period of time" or let them have far more actions (ofc balance it out after what the creature wants to do).

Well, i don't how more to say, due to lack of knowledge of this new system. This is just a few suggestions or opinions. I hope it's useful in some way

I've upped some costs and added Telekinesis but I need to know how this feels to other people or it's just going to be my guesswork.

Also, maybe a few more levels for equipment's durability.. Like this:

1 - Broken, need full repair, does not function.

2 - Badly, works but with a -30 to tests using this piece. Melee weapons like power and chain weapons will "jam" and stop working until fixed. A ranged weapon will have a larger % value for jamming.

3 - Lightly damaged, -10 to tests using this piece. Same as nr. 2, but with a lower risk.

4 - Normal durability, works fine.

5 - Works well, might be able to resist some damage before being reduced in durability.

6 - Works beyond normal.. Likely a "best craftmanship". This weapon requires a lot of damage before repair, except if directly hit by weapons with a pen of X (over 5 ex) or by other means.

7 - Likely some kind of relic or other unknown material, should rarely lose this quality. Always at "best craftmanship" or for other reasons.

What do you think?