I was looking at Kir Kanos, and wondered when exactly you would activate his ability.

"When attacking at range 2 or 3, you may spend one evade token to add one *hit* result to your roll."

It seems to me that this would be used during the modify attack dice step, but on further reflection I realized I would have a hard time "proving" that with RaW. You are not rolling, rerolling, or modifying dice, so are you really required to perform the action during that step? Or can it be done before or during some other step?

I think since you are spending a focus and modifying your roll to include one more hit, that it would work like any other modification of attack dice.

What do you see that could be beneficial or detrimental about reading it differently?

I would think you'd do that at the exact same time you would spend a Focus to convert eyeballs, or a Target Lock to reroll or whatever. I guess I would argue that since you are "adding...to your roll," you ARE in fact modifying your original roll.

If I could add it at a later point, I would be able to see what my opponent has rolled to evade first. And I agree with you, but I find it hard to "prove".

Maybe that is the key, adding it to your "roll".

I don't think it's hard to prove - you spend it at the same time you spend the 18 other things in the game you can spend to modify your dice results. All he's doing is using an evade token the same way most people use a Focus token - being allowed to spend it on offense OR on defense. It's really not that strange, it's exactly like spending any other token.

You can only spend a token when something lets you spend it. Typically, that's only during the various Modify Dice steps ("During this step, players may resolve abilities and spend tokens that allow them to modify attack dice.") But Kir's ability says you can spend the token "When attacking". That would seem to give you the option to do it throughout the entire attack process.

That seems right, but raises some serious red flags in my mind. Most notably, you could spend the token in Step 7 - it's still during the attack, but after cancels. That would make it unblockable, which feels wrong.

Interesting question. Honestly, it feels wrong enough that I'd play it conservatively and say it had to be during Modify Attack Dice, but I don't think there's anything strictly in the rules to prove that.

Wow, really? I did not think this one was going to be the least bit controversial. Normally you can only spend an Evade token on defense - he can spend them on attack, as well. Period. And when it comes to spending those tokens, I literally cannot think of any other rules that have as much existing precedent for how they should work as spending a token to modify a dice roll.

I mean if there's a logical argument to be made here, I'd love to hear it, because I'm honestly a little confused why this would throw anyone. The evade token even WORKS exactly the same as it normally does - it just works on offense, instead of defense, at range 2-3, and adds a hit result to your roll, rather than a squiggly line. I don't see anything in the wording that makes me believe it does anything other than function exactly as an evade normally does, except on offense.

[When I say 'works exactly the same,' and then list three ways it's different, what I mean is simply that a Focus token, for example, modifies an existing die result. An evade token, when spent, ADDS a result to your roll, kind of an automatic evade result on a phantom die. The way he is worded it seems like they didn't change anything about HOW spending the evade token works, simply when, and what result it gives.]

Looking through the other abilities, I think I'm going to back off my first read.

Almost all abilities which allow modifying dice are worded the same way: "When attacking..." We've always assumed these abilities are confined to the Modify steps. I think that the line I quoted above doesn't just allow tokens to be spent, it defines the only time you can spend them to modify dice. So unless an ability overrides that specifically, that limitation would stay in effect.

It's still a little squirrely, but changing this understanding wouldn't just affect Kir - it would demolish our basic understanding of how dice modification works, and allow a bunch of abilities to be used at strange times. It might make Horton more appealing, but I don't think it would be right.

Looking through the other abilities, I think I'm going to back off my first read.

Almost all abilities which allow modifying dice are worded the same way: "When attacking..." We've always assumed these abilities are confined to the Modify steps. I think that the line I quoted above doesn't just allow tokens to be spent, it defines the only time you can spend them to modify dice. So unless an ability overrides that specifically, that limitation would stay in effect.

It's still a little squirrely, but changing this understanding wouldn't just affect Kir - it would demolish our basic understanding of how dice modification works, and allow a bunch of abilities to be used at strange times. It might make Horton more appealing, but I don't think it would be right.

So when are you saying it can be spent?

Thanks guys. That was my read too, but having your explanations has helped solidify it in my mind. I found the idea that it is exactly like evade normally works, but adding a hit result rather than an evade result to be especially compelling. Also, I don't like game breaking precedents either.

Thanks guys. That was my read too, but having your explanations has helped solidify it in my mind. I found the idea that it is exactly like evade normally works, but adding a hit result rather than an evade result to be especially compelling. Also, I don't like game breaking precedents either.

That's the way I read it, anyway. And you know me, I'm always up for some weird esoteric, RAW explanation for how something might work.

But yeah, without complicating it (hopefully) unnecessarily, it really seems like he just uses an evade the opposite of how it normally works - to attack, rather than to defend. I would think it still can only be spent when modifying your dice roll, and just adds a 'phantom' hit onto whatever you roll, the same way it would add an evade result when defending. But for some strange reason he can also only do it at range 2-3. He's farsighted, I guess.

Looking through the other abilities, I think I'm going to back off my first read.

Almost all abilities which allow modifying dice are worded the same way: "When attacking..." We've always assumed these abilities are confined to the Modify steps. I think that the line I quoted above doesn't just allow tokens to be spent, it defines the only time you can spend them to modify dice. So unless an ability overrides that specifically, that limitation would stay in effect.

It's still a little squirrely, but changing this understanding wouldn't just affect Kir - it would demolish our basic understanding of how dice modification works, and allow a bunch of abilities to be used at strange times. It might make Horton more appealing, but I don't think it would be right.

So when are you saying it can be spent?

Only during Step 3.

Looking through the other abilities, I think I'm going to back off my first read.

Almost all abilities which allow modifying dice are worded the same way: "When attacking..." We've always assumed these abilities are confined to the Modify steps. I think that the line I quoted above doesn't just allow tokens to be spent, it defines the only time you can spend them to modify dice. So unless an ability overrides that specifically, that limitation would stay in effect.

It's still a little squirrely, but changing this understanding wouldn't just affect Kir - it would demolish our basic understanding of how dice modification works, and allow a bunch of abilities to be used at strange times. It might make Horton more appealing, but I don't think it would be right.

So when are you saying it can be spent?

Only during Step 3.

So, the correct sequence would be:

Kir Kanos attacks ---> Target modifies roll ----> Kir Kanos modifies roll and adds its ability hit result.

I can agree to this.

I was looking at Kir Kanos, and wondered when exactly you would activate his ability.

"When attacking at range 2 or 3, you may spend one evade token to add one *hit* result to your roll."

It seems to me that this would be used during the modify attack dice step, but on further reflection I realized I would have a hard time "proving" that with RaW. You are not rolling, rerolling, or modifying dice, so are you really required to perform the action during that step? Or can it be done before or during some other step?

I read/understand this to work as the same way as the Evade Token usually works in a normal defence roll, now it simply is "transformed" into a [Hit] ressult.

So as an example: Kir attacks at range 2, the roll is 3 x [Hit], Defender rolls (and get the chance to modify the results) and then Kir spends the Evade Token and then adds 1 [Hit] for a total of 4 [Hit]

I read/understand this to work as the same way as the Evade Token usually works in a normal defence roll, now it simply is "transformed" into a [Hit] ressult.

So as an example: Kir attacks at range 2, the roll is 3 x [Hit], Defender rolls (and get the chance to modify the results) and then Kir spends the Evade Token and then adds 1 [Hit] for a total of 4 [Hit]

That's not how it works, Step 3 in the Attack process reads:

"3. Modify Attack Dice

So if you're modifying attack dice results (be it with a Target Lock, Focus token or Kir and an Evade token) then you do it here, after the defender has modified attack dice results (if the target has Sensor Jammer for example).

If you were spending the Evade token to modify defence dice, then you spend it in step 5 of the attack process as normal.

Looking through the other abilities, I think I'm going to back off my first read.

Almost all abilities which allow modifying dice are worded the same way: "When attacking..." We've always assumed these abilities are confined to the Modify steps. I think that the line I quoted above doesn't just allow tokens to be spent, it defines the only time you can spend them to modify dice. So unless an ability overrides that specifically, that limitation would stay in effect.

It's still a little squirrely, but changing this understanding wouldn't just affect Kir - it would demolish our basic understanding of how dice modification works, and allow a bunch of abilities to be used at strange times. It might make Horton more appealing, but I don't think it would be right.

So when are you saying it can be spent?

Only during Step 3.

Oh thank goodness . I was getting confused by all this. I thought the first paragraph of Step 3 was fairly clear but hey...

I just wanted to be sure.

I read/understand this to work as the same way as the Evade Token usually works in a normal defence roll, now it simply is "transformed" into a [Hit] ressult. So as an example: Kir attacks at range 2, the roll is 3 x [Hit], Defender rolls (and get the chance to modify the results) and then Kir spends the Evade Token and then adds 1 [Hit] for a total of 4 [Hit]

That's not how it works, Step 3 in the Attack process reads: "3. Modify Attack Dice During this step, players may resolve abilities and spend tokens that allow them to modify attack dice. This includes adding die results, changing die results, and rerolling dice (see “Modifying Dice Results” on page 12)." So if you're modifying attack dice results (be it with a Target Lock, Focus token or Kir and an Evade token) then you do it here, after the defender has modified attack dice results (if the target has Sensor Jammer for example). If you were spending the Evade token to modify defence dice, then you spend it in step 5 of the attack process as normal.

My bad. Naturally one must do it prior to the defense roll. Otherwise I think we agree. Thx for pointing out the screw up

If the attacker and defender both have abilities that can modify attack dice, the defender resolves all of his abilities before the attacker.

Step 3 is the logical place for it to occur and step 7 although unlikly will be when the faq decides to take another approach