Of course the problem with that is the rules do clearly allow your ship to take actions, even barrel rolls, while ionized. I read (past tense) Advanced Sensors as being nothing more than a change in WHEN you take your action, nothing more.

In the real world is impossible for a prerequisite to occur after the action. Any statements to the contrary "You must graduate from High School before attending college" for example, are strictly statements of timing and/or intent. Absolute requirements, such as "you must live before you die", cannot work when prerequisites succeed their effects, "you must die before you live".

As a statement of intent, which is what Ken at Sunrise first stated and is echoed by CW and B, this is a perfectly functional statement. Unfortunately, as an absolute rule it is terrible. I am willing to accept that the designers "meant" for you to at least have a maneuver selected in order to use Advanced Sensors because the majority of the folks here believe that to be the case. But as a "Rule" this one is a mess.

Everybody please read the entire text on the Ion Token: (I will paraphrase and bold the key points)

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/news/preview6-ywing-starfighter/ion-reference.png

Planning phase: No maneuver dial!!

Activation phase: Perform 1 straight forward, THEN remove Ion Token(s), THEN you may (of course only if not stressed or otherwise prohibited) "perform actions as normal"

It should be clear that PRIOR to the removal of the Ion token(s) the ship is in effect "stunned" and NOT allowed to perform actions, and I would (without it being specified) also say that it isnt't allowed a/any Free Actons untill the end of the Activation Phase

Anyone disagree on this??

since you do not reveal your maneuver, you do not get to use AS, not sure why this seems to be an issue

Nor do I :-)

Of course the problem with that is the rules do clearly allow your ship to take actions, even barrel rolls, while ionized. I read (past tense) Advanced Sensors as being nothing more than a change in WHEN you take your action, nothing more.

In the real world is impossible for a prerequisite to occur after the action. Any statements to the contrary "You must graduate from High School before attending college" for example, are strictly statements of timing and/or intent. Absolute requirements, such as "you must live before you die", cannot work when prerequisites succeed their effects, "you must die before you live".

As a statement of intent, which is what Ken at Sunrise first stated and is echoed by CW and B, this is a perfectly functional statement. Unfortunately, as an absolute rule it is terrible. I am willing to accept that the designers "meant" for you to at least have a maneuver selected in order to use Advanced Sensors because the majority of the folks here believe that to be the case. But as a "Rule" this one is a mess.

Everybody please read the entire text on the Ion Token: (I will paraphrase and bold the key points)

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/news/preview6-ywing-starfighter/ion-reference.png

Planning phase: No maneuver dial!!

Activation phase: Perform 1 straight forward, THEN remove Ion Token(s), THEN you may (of course only if not stressed or otherwise prohibited) "perform actions as normal"

It should be clear that PRIOR to the removal of the Ion token(s) the ship is in effect "stunned" and NOT allowed to perform actions, and I would (without it being specified) also say that it isnt't allowed a/any Free Actons untill the end of the Activation Phase

Anyone disagree on this??

There is nothing in the rules that says the ship may not perform a free action so there is nothing to prevent the ship from taking a free action from any source.

Everybody please read the entire text on the Ion Token: (I will paraphrase and bold the key points)

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/news/preview6-ywing-starfighter/ion-reference.png

Planning phase: No maneuver dial!!

Activation phase: Perform 1 straight forward, THEN remove Ion Token(s), THEN you may (of course only if not stressed or otherwise prohibited) "perform actions as normal"

It should be clear that PRIOR to the removal of the Ion token(s) the ship is in effect "stunned" and NOT allowed to perform actions, and I would (without it being specified) also say that it isnt't allowed a/any Free Actons untill the end of the Activation Phase

Anyone disagree on this??

But you added the "THEN" when you paraphrased. That isn't actually on the card. The card states as a separate sentence

"It may perform actions as normal."

Oh come ON!! The "then"s were added to let it show the order that the card reads when you may remove token and perform action. This (to me at least) is a (clear) indication that you can't take actions not even free ones PRIOR to that step. And as I said; my post is simply my feeble attempt to set the "conflict" of the AS vs Ion effect in a context that would make sense to the RaI sensitive types, I wouldn't expect it to be accepted by many RaW's

Never mind, if you interpret the rules so that an "ion stunned" ship (that are forced to drift 1 straight forward in space) is able to use AS and barrel roll or boost then, by all means, play it that way.

This is beyond RAI and into RAF - Rules as Fantasized.

There is absolutely nothing which says an ionized ship cannot take actions. The line you're trying to twist is actually reinforcing that - it's specifying that the ship may perform actions as normal. The positioning of the rule might imply a "Then" if there were anything that stopped actions in the first place, but there isn't.

This is nothing new. An ionized ship was always able to perform actions if someone passed one their way while they were ionized, for example via Lando, or something let them take an action during combat, like Turr.

Oh come ON!! The "then"s were added to let it show the order that the card reads when you may remove token and perform action. This (to me at least) is a (clear) indication that you can't take actions not even free ones PRIOR to that step. And as I said; my post is simply my feeble attempt to set the "conflict" of the AS vs Ion effect in a context that would make sense to the RaI sensitive types, I wouldn't expect it to be accepted by many RaW's

Never mind, if you interpret the rules so that an "ion stunned" ship (that are forced to drift 1 straight forward in space) is able to use AS and barrel roll or boost then, by all means, play it that way.

I was pointing out, that the point you were making isn't fully clear. Yes those are the order of sentences and the paragraph which contains the complete thought is actually about the Activation Phase. But the sentence may or may not be predicated on the prior sentence as a condition, but rather included to complete the thought of the paragraph "Activation Phase'. It is not clear.

Having said that I have often said that I prefer clear rules but when there is ambiguity I tend to fall on the common sense way of looking at things. In this case I actually prefer that a ship with sufficient ION tokens not be allowed to take actions period; this makes sense. But I just don't see that as the case here and I don't know that anyone has ever had a consensus otherwise; which means I would have to stay with the current understanding of the rules "It may preform actions as normal". I just don't see enough ambiguity to make the case otherwise.

I do fall on the side of the debate/discussion that if you don't have a movement dial you can't use your Advanced Sensors. But that argument isn't clear in the rules so I have just enough wiggle room . Just say'in.

[Edited for spelling]

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, Yeah!

This is beyond RAI and into RAF - Rules as Fantasized.

There is absolutely nothing which says an ionized ship cannot take actions. The line you're trying to twist is actually reinforcing that - it's specifying that the ship may perform actions as normal. The positioning of the rule might imply a "Then" if there were anything that stopped actions in the first place, but there isn't.

This is nothing new. An ionized ship was always able to perform actions if someone passed one their way while they were ionized, for example via Lando, or something let them take an action during combat, like Turr.

And I don't think anybody is saying that the ship in question would forfeit its action...

The question is, since Advanced Sensors takes effect immediately before revealing a maneuver, and an Ion token prevents you from having a maneuver dial to reveal, can you still take your action prior to making the mandatory 1-straight move, or do you have to move 1-straight and then take your action.

I agree that trying to read into the timing of the Ion token is splitting unnecessary hairs. I just have trouble buying into the idea that if a card says "before you do A, do B" when you know ahead of time that you are unable to actually do A.

I'm Ion'ed and I know it!

And I don't think anybody is saying that the ship in question would forfeit its action...

The question is, since Advanced Sensors takes effect immediately before revealing a maneuver, and an Ion token prevents you from having a maneuver dial to reveal, can you still take your action prior to making the mandatory 1-straight move, or do you have to move 1-straight and then take your action.

Unless I dramatically misread it, and owe an apology, Forensicus was saying that a ship with an ion token could not perform actions at all. He was aiming at the same destination, but taking a fully unsupported and side-effect-laden path to get there based on his usual guidance from Miss Cleo on how the rules should work.

And I don't think anybody is saying that the ship in question would forfeit its action...

The question is, since Advanced Sensors takes effect immediately before revealing a maneuver, and an Ion token prevents you from having a maneuver dial to reveal, can you still take your action prior to making the mandatory 1-straight move, or do you have to move 1-straight and then take your action.

Unless I dramatically misread it, and owe an apology, Forensicus was saying that a ship with an ion token could not perform actions at all. He was aiming at the same destination, but taking a fully unsupported and side-effect-laden path to get there based on his usual guidance from Miss Cleo on how the rules should work.

Then I think I would take the apoplogy if/when given. I REALLY, REALLY thought it would be clear that I made it clear that of course the ship is allowed to take an action AFTER the ion effect is removed. The only thing that would prevent this is if the ship had stress prior to the "Ion move", lands on asteroids etc etc

And I don't think anybody is saying that the ship in question would forfeit its action...

The question is, since Advanced Sensors takes effect immediately before revealing a maneuver, and an Ion token prevents you from having a maneuver dial to reveal, can you still take your action prior to making the mandatory 1-straight move, or do you have to move 1-straight and then take your action.

Unless I dramatically misread it, and owe an apology, Forensicus was saying that a ship with an ion token could not perform actions at all. He was aiming at the same destination, but taking a fully unsupported and side-effect-laden path to get there based on his usual guidance from Miss Cleo on how the rules should work.

But you may sod off with the "Miss Cleo" comment though ;-)

Too bad an ION token didn't come with stress or at least say it acts as a stress token in addition to preventing you for choosing a maneuver.

He may well have been saying that, I don't know. If he was, I think he was definitely reading too much into it.

Now if you have a STRESS token when you get Ioned (I know most of you know this) obviously that will forfeit your action, because you remain stressed since it's a white 1-forward.

But I think trying to pull the timing of the ion token removal into it is probably unnecessary. The Combat Phase part says the exact same wording, "the ship may [attack] as normal," which makes me think the line about taking actions "as normal" is just an additional instruction and not a hard delineation of order.

If you take it on its own, simply to say that it may perform actions as normal, it clears up a lot of extra mess and confusion and brings it back to the question at hand, to whit: is "immediately before you reveal a maneuver" just helpful timing, or an actual instruction?

Too bad an ION token didn't come with stress or at least say it acts as a stress token in addition to preventing you for choosing a maneuver.

I've often thought ion is a bit underpowered and should stress you or prevent you from taking an action or SOMETHING besides just making you coast. But it's pretty clear that it doesn't, so if wishes were horses, I guess.

Then I think I would take the apoplogy if/when given. I REALLY, REALLY thought it would be clear that I made it clear that of course the ship is allowed to take an action AFTER the ion effect is removed. The only thing that would prevent this is if the ship had stress prior to the "Ion move", lands on asteroids etc etc

No, I'm pretty sure that you're saying exactly what I thought you were saying. And it's completely wrong.

There is nothing that stops a ship which currently has an ion token from performing an action. Yes, you end up at the same place (Advanced Sensor doesn't let you act if you're ionized) but you run over a whole lot of innocents in the process.

Example: Wedge is ionized. Lando activates, does a 1 ahead, and finishes close to Wedge. He passes an action to Wedge. Wedge CAN take that action, even though he's ionized.

Ok it may have been rude, but I can't stop giggling (yes, giggling) over the Miss Cleo thing.

"Done listen to any'ting they tell you. The spirit of t'rules - SHE knows what be best!"

Ok it may have been rude, but I can't stop giggling (yes, giggling) over the Miss Cleo thing.

"Done listen to any'ting they tell you. The spirit of t'rules - SHE knows what be best!"

<shrug> Seemed as likely a source of his wisdom as anything else.

Note that the Ion Card effect card textually says:

"The owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a 1 [straight - white] maneuver". (Emphasis mine)

The player doesn't assign the dial. Instead, the ion effect card assigns a specific maneuver for it, replacing player's planning phase.

I believe that it could be interpreted that the ship is operating under the fiction of "being assigned a dial".

That's a stretch, I think. You could just as easily make the argument it's phrased that way specifically so there ISN'T any suggestion that the ship is being assigned a maneuver dial.

Put another, hopefully more clear way, you could also read Ion token card as being very carefully worded not to mention a maneuver dial after that first pretty clear statement "The owner does not assign a maneuver dial to this ship."

Note that the Ion Card effect card textually says:

"The owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a 1 [straight - white] maneuver". (Emphasis mine)

The player doesn't assign the dial. Instead, the ion effect card assigns a specific maneuver for it, replacing player's planning phase.

I believe that it could be interpreted that the ship is operating under the fiction of "being assigned a dial".

The "as if it were assigned" wording maintains the full flow of the maneuver process, where simply saying "execute a maneuver" doesn't. This can be seen in the errata for Daredevil - it was changed because "execute a {...} maneuver" refers only to Step 3 - the actual process of performing the maneuver. Notably, it leaves out the stress step.

I agree with CW on the broader point. The ion token rules explicitly say you don't have a dial. I think any attempt to try and assume, based on some peripheral wording, that you have a dial which doesn't exist is a pretty heavy lift.

Then I think I would take the apoplogy if/when given. I REALLY, REALLY thought it would be clear that I made it clear that of course the ship is allowed to take an action AFTER the ion effect is removed. The only thing that would prevent this is if the ship had stress prior to the "Ion move", lands on asteroids etc etc

No, I'm pretty sure that you're saying exactly what I thought you were saying. And it's completely wrong.

There is nothing that stops a ship which currently has an ion token from performing an action. Yes, you end up at the same place (Advanced Sensor doesn't let you act if you're ionized) but you run over a whole lot of innocents in the process.

Example: Wedge is ionized. Lando activates, does a 1 ahead, and finishes close to Wedge. He passes an action to Wedge. Wedge CAN take that action, even though he's ionized.

Okay, since I am not a complete douchebag (as opposed to an individual who shall remain nameless) I will admit that part of what I wrote was incorrect and/or not totally clear, and agree that an ionized UNSTRESSED ship might well be allowed to use Advanced Sensors.

You're trying to combine two points: 1- that an ion'ed ship is not capable of performing actions, and 2- that an ion'ed ship is not capable of using advanced sensors to perform an action. For point 1, there's no rules indicating that an ion'ed ship is incapable of performing an action when provided one as a free action, such as the wedge/lando example above.

For point 2, the general consensus earlier in the thread was that an ion'ed ship was unable to use advanced sensors, not because an ion'ed ship could not perform actions, but because it does not have a maneuver to reveal, which avoids the trigger that advanced sensors uses.

I will admit that part of what I wrote was incorrect and/or not totally clear, and agree that an ionized UNSTRESSED ship might well be allowed to use Advanced Sensors.

I'm only responding to this because you quoted me, and made it sound very much like something I had said was the basis for this final statement. Which is frustrating, because you started with the wrong reason but the right answer, and somehow, in the process of correcting the reason, arrived at the wrong answer. It's honestly kinda baffling, and I really wanted to correct any misconception that you were using anything I had said as the basis for this.

Ionized ships don't get a maneuver dial. Therefore, they can't reveal it. Barring KO's paradox argument and general concerns with using "before", there is near-unanimous agreement that the lack of a dial means you CANNOT use Advanced Sensors to get your action before the drift.

Revealing the dial cannot be a trigger for advanced sensors, period. If you ever reached the trigger, that is if you reveal your dial, you cannot then use advanced sensors because you were required to use them before revealing the dial. There is no possible way to make that have any logical consistency.

Earlier, the argument that held the general consensus was that there needed to at least be some intent to reveal a dial, some potential for dial revelation. Performing an action (Advanced Sensors) before something that you knew without a doubt was not going to happen seemed abusive to most, including myself. That is the reason we arrived at the consensus opinion, because the RaW cannot under operate with "Reveal a Maneuver" as a trigger under any sort of rigorous sequential execution.

By definition a "prerequisite" cannot occur after the action, that is called a non-sequitur for a very good reason.

Edit: Which is why writers should strive towards consistent wording and defined words. Had they simply worded Advanced Sensors in exactly the same way they worded Bomb drops, "When you reveal" as opposed to "Before you reveal" we would have wound up with identical functionality but clear precedent based on the rules for bombs. As it is, their inconsistency has made what ought to be a straightforward action much more complicated than it needs to be.

I will admit that part of what I wrote was incorrect and/or not totally clear, and agree that an ionized UNSTRESSED ship might well be allowed to use Advanced Sensors.

I'm only responding to this because you quoted me, and made it sound very much like something I had said was the basis for this final statement. Which is frustrating, because you started with the wrong reason but the right answer, and somehow, in the process of correcting the reason, arrived at the wrong answer. It's honestly kinda baffling, and I really wanted to correct any misconception that you were using anything I had said as the basis for this.

Ionized ships don't get a maneuver dial. Therefore, they can't reveal it. Barring KO's paradox argument and general concerns with using "before", there is near-unanimous agreement that the lack of a dial means you CANNOT use Advanced Sensors to get your action before the drift.

Buhallin, it is obvious that you and I see many things from (very) different angles, and I have on several times also made it clear that sometimes I have problems being concise since English isn't my primary language. So it really saddens me that you get the idea that I think/believe (or want) that AS works on Ionized ships.

Final note: You must really believe me when I say this: I respect your opinion and your ability and desire for reading the rules and debating them, but Jesus f*** Christ you can really get my p*** boiling with your astounding condescending way of "talking" and near complete (over?)confidence in your own interpretations. Have fun