Dutch with ion turret

Gold Y-Wing with blaster turret x2

Kyle with recon specialist and blaster turret

Kyle is EASILY my first kill target. He is huge for your list because he allows the other ships to get TL + Focus combos off. He's 5 hit points! Protected by only 2 agility. Dead the same turn we get in range. I hope you fly him well behind the rest of the squad to at least make it a challenge.

Dutch is next. Lots of hit points, but only 1 agility. No defensive upgrades.

I'm not seeing it. HSF should have mopped the floor with you. What happened in that game?

How i won? Well actually i surprised him by dashing the Y-Wings into his line via a red manoeuver. I tried to not exchange shots with the falcon at range 1 but at range 2 whenever possible. He made 1 forward moves the turn we engaged but he failed to get every gun on one target. I moved Kyle and dutch diagonally to avoid the falcon at first. So he fired one X-Wing and the Falcon on one Gold squadron and the other X-Wing at the other Gold squadron. Both his X-Wings scored only one hit and the falcon 3. I ended up with losing one shield on one gold squadron and two on the other that evaded twice. In exchange Dutch scored 2 hits from range 3 on one X-Wing as Han was still out of range. He preferred to shoot at my closer Y-Wings because they were range 2 while the other 2 ships were at 3. Han had no shot on Kyle or Dutch that turn anyway. I scored another hit with my Gold squadrons on the wounded X-Wing. He was at 2 HP then. The turn after i speculated he would K-Turn the X-Wings and i was right if he had done 1 straights i would have not managed to get past him. Did soft banks on both gold and got all my actions that turn. Han turned in to my formation and crashed into one Y-Wing denying Marksmanship. Kyle and Dutch had moved on and were now in range but my other gold Squad was at range 1 now. Plus the X-Wings could shoot them but not Kyle or dutch that were sideways from them. Han shot the Y-Wing that had lost a shield and did 3 damage. I didnt evade but he just scored 3 hits. What probably won me the game was that i had given Kyle dutchs TL. Because he killed the X-Wing with 2hp left. And Ditch barely managed to ionize the remaining one in a wa ly so he would crash into Han next turn remaining stressed. One Goldwing shot Han and did 2 damage the other one was in contact but whiffed on the X-Wing. I felt i was in a good situation because the X-Wing whiffed competely too.

Next turn i turned Kyle and Dutch into Han and avoided the Ioned crashed X-Wings arc. The Gold Y-Wings moved on slowly and Han crashed into the other one this time. There was nothing else to do as one of the Gold squadrons was between the only gap he could have taken between asteroids. In the other direction he would have crashed into kyle. That was my lucky turn. Han did 2 damage as i evaded one hit thistime on the other Y-Wing leaving both with 4 Hitpoints. I then unleashed on han with my two ships i could do so. i did 6 damage on him including 2 critical hits. One of them was the one reducing his weapon value by one. I shot Dutch on the X-Wing which was ionized again. My remaining Y-Wing did another damage to him leaving him at 2. He did 2 damage in return and left my one Y-Wing at 2. Next turn Han attempted a range 3 shot on that one to finish it but with that crit he did only one damage. Thevreat of my ships fired at Han giving him an ion token and further 3 damage. He was at one or 2 then. My Y-Wing to the other side could not fire at han (range 3) so he just shot the X-Wing and killed it. It fired back (same initiative) and killed the Y-Wing in return. Next turn Han shot at my other Y-Wing because with a Direct hit he could have killed it. He lefz it at 1 hitpoint though with a critical concerning movement. Then i fired back and kilked Han.

You could say we both had the wrong target priorities but it was what seemed logical to shoot at during each turn. Eliminating an enemy is sometimes better than just damaging a stronger enemy ship. I tried to present a target as vulnerable while my buffing ships were always sonewhat unattractive targets. What made me Kill the X-Wings first was just that i scored solid hits on them so i could finish them off fast. I hope i recalled most of the battle accurately although i don't guarantee it, it was a few days ago...

The synergistic combo doesn't have to go the entire game, Since Kyle can be range 3 from Dutch, and Dutch can be range 2/3 from his enemies, the distance can be rather large.

Range 2 can be pretty easy to stall maneuver the a-wings, especially for the first pass dutch has a forward 2 along with the a-wings.

The synergy is among all groups

Kyle can focus to a-wing so the a-wing can TL

Kyle can focus to Dutch so Duch can tl

Dutch can TL and give a free TL to Kyle

Dutch can TL and give a free TL to A-wing

If you look at the maximum range (it's quite interesting)

A-wings are at range 3 of their targets (for con missile)

Y-wing is at range 2 of the a-wings (out of fire range for enemy ships or 5 distance away)

Kyle is at range 3 of Dutch (8 Distance away)

A-wings fire missiles first round and begin range 1 combat

Dutch moves into range 2 (since both ships will be moving toward each other in some way.)

Kyle moves into range 2 or 3 depending on how far out he was. (Ideally try to get him in range 2)

Everyone is within buffing range

The Blaster turrets become primed and available, so now you have 12 shots coming after a successful round of missiles (ideally)

The synergistic combo doesn't have to go the entire game, Since Kyle can be range 3 from Dutch, and Dutch can be range 2/3 from his enemies, the distance can be rather large.

Range 2 can be pretty easy to stall maneuver the a-wings, especially for the first pass dutch has a forward 2 along with the a-wings.

The synergy is among all groups

Kyle can focus to a-wing so the a-wing can TL

Kyle can focus to Dutch so Duch can tl

Dutch can TL and give a free TL to Kyle

Dutch can TL and give a free TL to A-wing

If you look at the maximum range (it's quite interesting)

A-wings are at range 3 of their targets (for con missile)

Y-wing is at range 2 of the a-wings (out of fire range for enemy ships or 5 distance away)

Kyle is at range 3 of Dutch (8 Distance away)

A-wings fire missiles first round and begin range 1 combat

Dutch moves into range 2 (since both ships will be moving toward each other in some way.)

Kyle moves into range 2 or 3 depending on how far out he was. (Ideally try to get him in range 2)

Everyone is within buffing range

The Blaster turrets become primed and available, so now you have 12 shots coming after a successful round of missiles (ideally)

Problem with that is that Dutch needs to be in range 3 of the enemy to get a TL in order to pass off a TL to the A wings.

The crow has definitely gone down fast in past games. but I am not sure what to add or what to change

The synergistic combo doesn't have to go the entire game, Since Kyle can be range 3 from Dutch, and Dutch can be range 2/3 from his enemies, the distance can be rather large.

Range 2 can be pretty easy to stall maneuver the a-wings, especially for the first pass dutch has a forward 2 along with the a-wings.

The synergy is among all groups

Kyle can focus to a-wing so the a-wing can TL

Kyle can focus to Dutch so Duch can tl

Dutch can TL and give a free TL to Kyle

Dutch can TL and give a free TL to A-wing

If you look at the maximum range (it's quite interesting)

A-wings are at range 3 of their targets (for con missile)

Y-wing is at range 2 of the a-wings (out of fire range for enemy ships or 5 distance away)

Kyle is at range 3 of Dutch (8 Distance away)

A-wings fire missiles first round and begin range 1 combat

Dutch moves into range 2 (since both ships will be moving toward each other in some way.)

Kyle moves into range 2 or 3 depending on how far out he was. (Ideally try to get him in range 2)

Everyone is within buffing range

The Blaster turrets become primed and available, so now you have 12 shots coming after a successful round of missiles (ideally)

Problem with that is that Dutch needs to be in range 3 of the enemy to get a TL in order to pass off a TL to the A wings.

This is true, but range 3 still isn't horrible since I can use my primary weapon anyway

The problem with that list is that the moment you lose Kyle, you lose Dutch's abilities along with him. You must focus to shoot that blaster turret, which means Dutch cannot lock and give more locks unless Kyle throws him a Focus.

It is one thing to synergize, that is the way to get more effectiveness out of your squadrons. But if you create a machine that will breakdown from the loss of any single part, all you have accomplished is to make it more vulnerable than the equivalent number of random ships would have been.

Sorry, ForceM, I should have been more clear. I was responding to macar's list that he posted and specifically asked for feedback, where Dutch was equipped with a Blaster Turret.

While that would work great as long as all the ships were on the table, once Kyle goes down Dutch would be crippled.

I stated earlier that I thought your list would be quite effective, as written. I still think so.

Okay. Concerning the A-Wing variant, i would prefer Rookie X-Wings for the sane cost. More firepower and no danger of outrunning your "buff bubble"

This discussion has created an interesting dilemma: how do you prevent a hawk from being the focus target?

1. Biggs?

2. Doesn't matter if he dies first, he still makes your first pass massively more potent?

Discuss.

Kyle Katarn with Moldy, Blaster, and Recon + Biggs is 52 Points. It definitely alleviates the threat of loosing the HWK in the first pass and allows you to be more offensive.

48 Points is Two rooks with 6 pts left over

Wedge with R2d2, PTL, a shield upgrade, and shield on biggs

Chewbacca with Millenium Falcon Title

This discussion has created an interesting dilemma: how do you prevent a hawk from being the focus target?

1. Biggs?

2. Doesn't matter if he dies first, he still makes your first pass massively more potent?

Discuss.

1. Well as you see in my battle report, he didn't get shot at because i always presented "easier" targets. That would be one way.

2. Or just present something dangerous, making his buff abilities seem less of a concern. I am thinking Wedge, or a B-Wing or something in that way.

3. After all a Hawk has quite okay durability, nearly as good as an X-Wing and most of them don't cost more. Garven's and Dutches buff abilities after all did not ever make them the prime targets in Rebel lists either. So you might overestimate the HWKs perceived threat to enemy players.

4. Or invest in their durability, take chewbacca as a crewmember or something of that sort...

5. I also ask myself if Moldy crow is really mandatory on Kyle Katarn for 2 reasons.

If you take recon specialist you already have one focus for Kyle, on for an ally per turn. Seems enough to me. Plus stacking Focus on him will make him even more attractive as a target because your enemy will feel like he makes you lose the actions if he kills him fast... Which is not quite wrong actually

To be honest, I am not sure that having Kyle be the first priority target is really such a bad thing. He has 2 agility, and likely a pile of Focus tokens to use against each and every attack. He isn't super tough, but he is much harder to focus down than any of your other ships that have only a single Focus token to use for defense and/or only 1 agility.

Maybe a shield upgrade or a Stealth device would be effective, but I don't think the list relies on Kyle heavily enough to justify the increased investment. It looks to me like his contribution and defense are pretty well balanced as is.

Here is a spam list that i think might actually be viable

Individually the ships can perform on their own pretty well. Focus firing would be the synergy of the group.

Blue Squadron Pilot x3

-Proton Torps

-Fire Control System

-Autoblaster

The theory behind this quad build is to have that threat of approach after the first volley. Since these guys accell at CQC dancing with them could be deadly

I'm not sure if using the torps first attack would be ideal, since I could them use them paired with the FCS/focus. The issue would be if i lost a ship with a torp still on it. Maybe shoot one/save 2, send one guy in for autoblaster attacks.

This discussion has created an interesting dilemma: how do you prevent a hawk from being the focus target?

1. Biggs?

2. Doesn't matter if he dies first, he still makes your first pass massively more potent?

Discuss.

1. Well as you see in my battle report, he didn't get shot at because i always presented "easier" targets. That would be one way.

2. Or just present something dangerous, making his buff abilities seem less of a concern. I am thinking Wedge, or a B-Wing or something in that way.

3. After all a Hawk has quite okay durability, nearly as good as an X-Wing and most of them don't cost more. Garven's and Dutches buff abilities after all did not ever make them the prime targets in Rebel lists either. So you might overestimate the HWKs perceived threat to enemy players.

4. Or invest in their durability, take chewbacca as a crewmember or something of that sort...

I didn't even think about chewbacca 0.0 great idea!

Here is a spam list that i think might actually be viable

Individually the ships can perform on their own pretty well. Focus firing would be the synergy of the group.

Blue Squadron Pilot x3

-Proton Torps

-Fire Control System

-Autoblaster

The theory behind this quad build is to have that threat of approach after the first volley. Since these guys accell at CQC dancing with them could be deadly

I'm not sure if using the torps first attack would be ideal, since I could them use them paired with the FCS/focus. The issue would be if i lost a ship with a torp still on it. Maybe shoot one/save 2, send one guy in for autoblaster attacks.

You may not have enough ships to make this work. However, you have excellent redundancy, and great synergy between the Proton Torpedoes and the Autoblasters.

I would not fire your Proton Torpedoes at your first opportunity. At long range you gain action economy by focusing and getting a free Target Lock after your primary attack. Then, your opponent is forced into choosing between a well-supported Proton Torpedo attack (Target Lock plus focus), or a well supported Autoblaster attack (still Target Lock plus focus). The disadvantage of choosing the less-painful Proton Torpedoes is that he will still face the possibility of a well supported Autoblaster attack the turn after that.

I would be interested in hearing how that list plays out.

Kyle with Chewbacca... interesting thought ForceM. Sounds very good.

To be honest, I am not sure that having Kyle be the first priority target is really such a bad thing. He has 2 agility, and likely a pile of Focus tokens to use against each and every attack. He isn't super tough, but he is much harder to focus down than any of your other ships that have only a single Focus token to use for defense and/or only 1 agility.

Maybe a shield upgrade or a Stealth device would be effective, but I don't think the list relies on Kyle heavily enough to justify the increased investment. It looks to me like his contribution and defense are pretty well balanced as is.

The pile of focus tokens makes a massive difference. Excellent point.

==================

[unnamed Squadron]

==================

Click to change squadron details

98 points

Pilots

------

Kyle Katarn (37)

HWK-290 (21), Veteran Instincts (1), Blaster Turret (4), Chewbacca (4), Moldy Crow (3), Shield Upgrade (4)

Luke Skywalker (37)

X-Wing (28), R2-D2 (4), Draw Their Fire (1), Shield Upgrade (4)

Blue Squadron Pilot (24)

B-Wing (22), Fire-Control System (2)

Hmm. This could be very solid. Offensively its not bad, but defensively its beast mode. Let us know if you test it.

This is exactly the kind of list I was referring to in my OP. Its difficult to pick apart, and it has some great synergies.

Also, not to derail this new vein of discussion, but getting back to the original post...

While killing an opponents heaviest hitting, least defensive target is usually the most strategic move, it is sometimes the case that you don't want to leave a highly defensive target for last because pilots like Luke become exponentially more powerful when you have less firepower to concentrate on them. This creates a bit of a paradox. We encounter the same problem when facing a Saber Squadron Pilot with PtL and stealth device. Do you deal with him while you can shoot more, or do you leave him for later because he's going to eat up a lot of your alpha strike? I think you see what I'm getting at.

I suppose a lot depends on the distance because of the dice modifiers for range.

I would say taking a turn to destroy the stealth device or spread your damage out some has advantages. This makes late game less cumbersome if it comes down to the wire.

This discussion has created an interesting dilemma: how do you prevent a hawk from being the focus target?

1. Biggs?

2. Doesn't matter if he dies first, he still makes your first pass massively more potent?

Discuss.

1. Well as you see in my battle report, he didn't get shot at because i always presented "easier" targets. That would be one way.

2. Or just present something dangerous, making his buff abilities seem less of a concern. I am thinking Wedge, or a B-Wing or something in that way.

3. After all a Hawk has quite okay durability, nearly as good as an X-Wing and most of them don't cost more. Garven's and Dutches buff abilities after all did not ever make them the prime targets in Rebel lists either. So you might overestimate the HWKs perceived threat to enemy players.

4. Or invest in their durability, take chewbacca as a crewmember or something of that sort...

5. I also ask myself if Moldy crow is really mandatory on Kyle Katarn for 2 reasons.

If you take recon specialist you already have one focus for Kyle, on for an ally per turn. Seems enough to me. Plus stacking Focus on him will make him even more attractive as a target because your enemy will feel like he makes you lose the actions if he kills him fast... Which is not quite wrong actually

Excellent discussion.

In the current Team Covenant Vassal Tournament I am running:

The Roarketype

Wedge Antilles (R2 Astromech) 30

Roark Garnet (Ion Cannon Turret, Flight Instructor) 28

Rookie Pilot 21

Rookie Pilot 21

100 points

I have two things going here. First, Wedge. He is basically my Biggs. I know that it might seem a waste of points, but he's about as much a waste of points as a Proton Torpedo. By that I mean that in some games he just won't die, and he continues to lay into the enemy with lethal efficiency. In other games he's gone in the first round of combat. But he definitely draws fire away from the HWK-290.

The second thing I'm trying out is the Flight Instructor on Roark. In my first game (and only game so far with this list) I think I used the Flight Instructor once. My goal is to have Roark be the favorite target because of his dangerous Ion Cannon Turret and pilot ability, but still be able to weather the storm of enemy fire that he receives because of his ability to reroll defense dice.

So far it's worked out, but stay tuned for future reports from the tournament.

I couldn't run this list.

Let us know how it goes, I am very curious.

List 2:

A defensive list would be the first one, offensive the second one obviously.

Both of them have a difficult target priority though which makes them interesting to me. (Besides the fact that i just reunited the Numb family of course)

Interesting lists ForceM. The first one is very interesting... I want to see a report of how it played.

The offensive list is very powerful. I'm not entirely sure of who I would kill first. Target confusion is just as good as defensive bonuses sometimes. My instinct is to leave Ten Numb for last. I think Wedge would have to die first. Jan and Ten are a very powerful combo.

I like both lists, well done.