In X-Wing kill order is a major factor . Whomever kills the better targets more efficiently will gut the other players chances of doing the same. Think of it as a damage race.

In this damage race, you can either protect your ships to slow down your opponent by:

-Taking defensive upgrades (ie R2D2)

-Maneuvering out of his firing arcs

Or you can speed up your own damage output by:

-Concentrating firepower

-Taking offensive pilots and upgrades (Wedge, Marksmanship etc)

While not being impossible to overcome, kill advantage can put a lot of pressure on your opponent. (This makes a lot of defensive pilots worse in the context of a squad than they would appear to be on their own - Dark Curse and Luke both fit this category. They are very strong 1 on 1, but in a 100 point list, your opponent will simply seek a softer target and leave them for last after the game has nearly been decided).

Herein lies my purpose on posting this thread. By mixing your offensive and defensive upgrades evenly, you make it difficult for your opponent to get ahead after the first kill or two.

You can accomplish this at the pilot + upgrades level , and at the list building level :

1. Match offensively inclined pilots with defensive upgrades (and vice versa)

Example:

If you had to face one of the following, how would you deal with it?

Worse: Wedge + Marksmanship = kill target, why would i let him live? There might not exist a softer target with as much damage potential as Wedge. He's the low hanging fruit.

Better: Wedge + R2D2 + shield upgrade = more difficult decision, I can't afford for him to keep shooting me, but can I afford to devote the resources to kill him?

Worse: Luke + R2D2 = leave him for last, no doubt (waste of points?)

Better: Luke + Marksmanship = more difficult to say if I can afford to let him light me up every turn, or if I can afford to devote the shots to kill him

2. Spread out your offensive power in proportion to the defensive capability of its holder

Example:

Han = deadly, and tons of hit points (always take Falcon title upgrade and spam the evade token if Han gets focused). Its very very difficult to decide whether to kill him first, or last - depends on what other pilots make up the list

*Look at your list and think "how would I beat me?" Which ship do I focus down first? Is there a single target that is clearly primary? If so, try hardening that target, or move some offensive upgrades from his ship to another.

Example:

Not Optimized: Wedge + Marksmanship, Rookie Pilot + R2F2 - kill Wedge first, no question

Optimized: Wedge + R2F2, Rookie + Marksmanship - both X-Wings could hurt me, the decision of who to kill is harder.

*Think about how your list will survive with any one ship missing.

There are exceptions to the above rules of thumb, but largely these tips will help you build better lists. Now quit spamming, and min/maxing. Go build a list that takes skill to play and skill to defeat, and enjoy the elegant balance that the designers built into this fantastic game.

Wave 3 does a lot of excellent things to the meta of the game.

1. Secondary weapons are wayyy more viable

2. Introduced more synergies with free actions and token manipulation

3. Created viability of low model count imperial lists (less swarm reliant)

I see people making mistakes after misunderstanding the meta game and focusing on pilots and upgrades strengths only while ignoring potential weaknesses:

"Dark Curse is op!"

"Spamming Hawks with turrets is going to be great!"

"B-Wings are good because the three B-Wing list can shoot X dice!"

"B-Wings suck because they can't maneuver (a notion i supported before play-testing them)"

Foolishness!

Each ship and upgrade has its magic configuration and ideal place within a list (granted, a few are just below average all the time, no matter what). The key is seeing the potential of the whole list together - how it will work for you, and frustrate your opponents plans.

Spamming works in this game. 3 bh can be a lot to fight through and make you think ahead.

I do agree with balancing offense and defense though. Often I find victories come from an overloaded wedge or Han. It is important to playtest and see what abilities you use most. if you never use gunner with han during a game take it out.

However slightly defensive targets can reign free during a match causing havok to the rest of your opponents squad. devoting more than 1/3 of your squad to a tank is a waist of firepower.

There are definitely deminishing returns to too much defense but the fine line can make a great difference.

Spam in this game is good not great. I think a list of tier 1 squads might be in order, though more advanced squads andtactics will show whether the player knows how to use them.

Spam for spams sake is horrible. Taking three bounty hunters isn't bad because bounty hunters actually synergize off of each other, particularly depending on how you kit them out.

I see a lot of romanticism concerning spam lists - 3 Bwings, multiple hawks (I cant imagine why you would take more than one, blaster turret spam is a bad call).

I define spam as "taking the same build on multiple ships because if one is good then two is better, so I'll take three."

I don't consider taking multiple copies of the same ship as spam if each ship can fill a unique role (Wedge and Luke are subtly different despite the fact they are both in X-Wings). I realize this may sound like splitting hairs, and that's because IT IS.

"but if I take 3 autoblasting B-Wings my target wont even get to roll defense dice!"

More like you wont even get to roll dice, when they avoid ever getting in range 1, Mr. Sweaty Pancakes!

If you have a purpose for each ship in your squadron, and you have thought about how you would defeat your list if you faced it, you probably aren't spamming.

That makes much more sense and well spoken.

I do agree that there is too much weight being put into add-ons for ships and how exactly they are being added.

There isn't much forethought going into multiple HWK lists simply because it has low HP and 1 Defense. Typically 1 Tie could take out a HWK in two maybe 3 rounds.

In fact i'm against the two b-wing HLC two rookie build, the B-wings are too juicy and that cannon removes criticals. It's solid but not top of the line.

Spamming biggs with r2f2 and a stealth device is also a mistake, biggs can't tank and people don't see that. I really think Biggs just skeleton is good enough to do his job in the time he is alive. Why waist points in a ship that is FORCED TO DIE.

great discussion thread. im all for abusing tactics, synergy and upgrades in this game.

One of the recent top tourney lists was Wedge, Luke and Biggs, each armed to the teeth and all with shield upgrades. Its difficult to get that first kill and start removing the offensive potential that three X-Wings can churn out turn after turn. This list buries its red dice under mountains of hull, shields and defensive upgrades and abilities. Once one of the X-Wings has taken damage, he can avoid being in firing arcs, spend focus tokens defensively, run away from the group forcing the enemy to pursue etc... Meanwhile the other two X-Wings can light up their kill target. I prefer playing with 4+ ships at 100 points, but this list is a great example of spreading the upgrades evenly, so that your offensive output is protected until you take a loss in the mid-game, after your opponent has suffered some attrition.

I don't consider taking multiple copies of the same ship as spam if each ship can fill a unique role (Wedge and Luke are subtly different despite the fact they are both in X-Wings). I realize this may sound like splitting hairs, and that's because IT IS.

What about Academy Pilots, do you count taking more than one of them as spamming, or do you see them like I do as a block, with there own role, outnumbering the enemy and making it hard for them to maneuver.

One of the recent top tourney lists was Wedge, Luke and Biggs, each armed to the teeth and all with shield upgrades. Its difficult to get that first kill and start removing the offensive potential that three X-Wings can churn out turn after turn. This list buries its red dice under mountains of hull, shields and defensive upgrades and abilities. Once one of the X-Wings has taken damage, he can avoid being in firing arcs, spend focus tokens defensively, run away from the group forcing the enemy to pursue etc... Meanwhile the other two X-Wings can light up their kill target. I prefer playing with 4+ ships at 100 points, but this list is a great example of spreading the upgrades evenly, so that your offensive output is protected until you take a loss in the mid-game, after your opponent has suffered some attrition.

it was a gr8 list. excellent synergy. luke / r2d2 / shield upgrade + draw their fire. wedge with veteran instincts was i think a counter to Han Shoots First lists or 9 PS imperial ships. Biggs is harder to use than people realize but when used correctly he can cause huge disruption.

Well it really depends. Luke with R2D2 is the example that springs into my eye first. It can be the ship to kill last. But it is rarely. In a game where you can get a quick advantage. Or where there is a bigger danger than Luke i'd say kill him last. But to do so you need to be winning already. If you leave Luke fapr last and you don't have a pretty big advantage over him, he will outlast you with R2D2 as he will probably reload a shield at least every 2nd turn if you don't ecerce enough pressure on him at that point. And that's nothing you want to see.

Luke with R2D2 is one of the ships i would prefer to kill first because only then i would be able to do it in 1-2 turns of focused fire. If i lose too many ships i will not be able to anymore.

So this is an example you need to be very careful with. Well indeed pretty often your enemy just takes the decicion for you by fielding Biggs anyway.

Well with the spam and blaster turret discussion i see where you are going. And i must say it is not a very good list indeed. But it would be if not for some obscure rulings. Don't get me wrong i don't want to argue over it and that Dark Curse stuff again, it's okay as it is . But i will give you a list where you can't deny the potential. And it's not a real spam list, it's very synergetic actually.

Dutch with ion turret

Gold Y-Wing with blaster turret x2

Kyle with recon specialist and blaster turret

Idk if that was 100 points exactly as i don't have the list on me but if not insert a few R2 units on some of the Y-Wings.

This overcomes some of the blaster turrets problems as you can fire all 3 every turn and 2 of them boosted with a target lock too.

Granted it has only 3 blaster turets but it's far from being a bad list. The amount of shots you can dodge with this is just amazing. The firepower is decent and no matter what goes down first, you still have a chance.

3 B-Wing lists are also not really foolishness. B- Wings can support each other pretty well and the firepower is okay. Probably though you are better served with a mix of X and B-Wings.

You know just don't dismiss lists as rubbish so fast because someone will find a good use for them and then everybody will suddenly fly it after 2-3 tournament victories.

I don't consider taking multiple copies of the same ship as spam if each ship can fill a unique role (Wedge and Luke are subtly different despite the fact they are both in X-Wings). I realize this may sound like splitting hairs, and that's because IT IS.

What about Academy Pilots, do you count taking more than one of them as spamming, or do you see them like I do as a block, with there own role, outnumbering the enemy and making it hard for them to maneuver.

I think the 8 academy list is pretty spammy because you can't take any upgrades whatsoever. I prefer the modified swarm with several named pilots. Overall, I agree with what you're saying: outnumbering and outmaneuvering is a legitimate strategy which takes skill to do well.

...it's not a real spam list, it's very synergetic actually.

Dutch with ion turret

Gold Y-Wing with blaster turret x2

Kyle with recon specialist and blaster turret

Idk if that was 100 points exactly as i don't have the list on me but if not insert a few R2 units on some of the Y-Wings.

This overcomes some of the blaster turrets problems as you can fire all 3 every turn and 2 of them boosted with a target lock too.

Granted it has only 3 blaster turets but it's far from being a bad list. The amount of shots you can dodge with this is just amazing. The firepower is decent and no matter what goes down first, you still have a chance.

3 B-Wing lists are also not really foolishness. B- Wings can support each other pretty well and the firepower is okay. Probably though you are better served with a mix of X and B-Wings.

You know just don't dismiss lists as rubbish so fast because someone will find a good use for them and then everybody will suddenly fly it after 2-3 tournament victories.

3 B-Wings with autoblaster forces you to try and get range 1 shots with all of your super slow ships. They have very poor stress management. They can't cover each others weaknesses. How is this going to be a tournament winning list?? B-Wings are probably most effective as singles in a list. 2 is okay, 3 is pretty terrible unless someone can kit them in a way I am not seeing.

Nice discussion and great post Daveydavedave,

I'll be honest I teneded towards the idea of improving what the pilot already did. So that means defensive pilots like Luke or Biggs get more defense, or Wedge gets more offense. I hadn't actually considered a more balanced approach, in giving offensive pilots defense and defensive pilots more firepower.

It makes a lot of sense though, because with so few units on the table, losing 1 can be a big deal. Sure losing 1 of 8 TF's isn't that bad, but it still hurts more then losing a unit in some other games.

When you have a 4 ship list, or a 3 ship one, losing even one can be a pretty big deal, especially if you're not already way ahead in the terms of kills and/or damage.

Thanks!

Ya, if you make Wedge more offensive and don't protect him with a mountain of defensive upgrades, I'm going to take him away from you turn one or two. So, how effective was he now? Wedge can hit so hard that its possible to get a kill each turn, but trading just one or even two tie kills for wedge is a bad trade for the rebel. He needs time to pay for himself and use his incredibly powerful pilot ability.

Um, that list is actually fairly effective (the porky pig spam as you called it). Diversity is NOT the be-all end-all of list building.

The truth hit upon in the OP was that you should avoid making your opponent's choices easy. So, if Wedge is obviously the most dangerous ship on your list, you need to do something to make him less of a target and/or do something to make him harder to kill. If Luke is already the most difficult to kill ship on your list, you need to do something to make him more dangerous (or make everybody else more defensive).

For example, I could put several completely different ships on the table. But if one of them is Soontir Fel with Expose, and one of them is Darth Vader with Stealth, my opponent will have a clear choice to kill Soontir first. By dropping Soontir Fel my opponent can dramatically reduce my firepower, PLUS Soontir is by far the easier of the two to kill. It would be better to put the Stealth on Soontir and Expose on Vader, giving me more firepower in case Soontir dies first, as well as making it harder to accomplish that goal.

The reason 8 TIE swarms win so often is NOT diversity, they have none. The reason is that there are no clear priorities, and the loss of any one TIE is no more painful than the loss of any other.

Edit: Lol. I actually have had great success with 4 Y-Wing builds, and expect a mix of Y-Wing and HWK-290s with turrets will play similarly and have similar success. But to each their own.

Wisdom! Except for that top line. The porky list is both mediocre and spammy. Diversity isn't the only consideration in list building strategy, it's just the one so many players ignore in favor of spamming something they like.

The reason 8 TIE swarms win so often is NOT diversity, they have none.

Or in other words the strenght of the 8 Tie swarm is in redudancy which I think fits in so very well with the Imperial mindset. Remove any one part and it doesn't matter much because that part can be replaced.

I think that we do not agree at all about the definition of spam. You say it's not spam if ships fulfill different roles. Well yeah we could argue that in a 7 Tie Swarm with some 3 named ships howlrunner is buffing people and the academies are blocking enemies. But that's pretty much all diversity im roles you have. It's the same ship with same firepower and manoeuvrability over and over. The role is being a cheap but reliable fighter that's surprisingly difficult to kill and relatively cheap with low firepower and good manoeuvrability. For all of them, after all Howlrunner is only 6 points away from an academy pilot.

This list is porky pig spam! You MUST be joking?? It's blaster turret spam to the core! All you've done is take an all hawk list and sub all but one out for Y-Wings with the same loadout, and sub one blaster for an ion. It's horrible because each ship relies on the same mechanic (granted, the Y-Wings vastly improve the list over taking multiple hawks). What happens if I shoot you from range 3? You have horrible maneuverability. Dutch is a great choice, but his support team is crap. Try again. This list illustrates EXACTLY what I was talking about avoiding.

3 B-Wings with autoblaster forces you to try and get range 1 shots with all of your super slow ships. They have very poor stress management. They can't cover each others weaknesses. How is this going to be a tournament winning list?? B-Wings are probably most effective as singles in a list. 2 is okay, 3 is pretty terrible unless someone can kit them in a way I am not seeing.

Well my list is one of the better ones you can make with blaster turrets. Yes i rely on 360 degree weapons but thats all that is spammed here. But there is a lot of reflection in the list and quite some different roles. Dutch has an ion turret because he wants to TL and give a free one to another Ship with a blaster turret. One of the Gold Y-Wings can TL on its own and gets a focus from Kyle. The other one gets a TL from Dutch and focuses. The list would also work with Garven instead of Dutch but with Dutch you have more turrets... Which is why i actually even made that list. I could also imagine the ion turret on Kyle and the Blaster turret on Dutch. I don't say this list is the strongest list ever, but it really has no problem (except against Dark Curse of course) to win. I have beaten HSF with it and a 6 ship imperial squadron so far. As i say, not top of the meta but quite playable and fun. Also there were pure Y-Wing lists with Ion turrets having won some tournaments during Wave 1 and 2. So the list is certainly not a joke or terrible. Concerning roles, you have the support ships in Kyle and Dutch, and the damage dealers in the Goldwings. So that's at least as many toles as im a tie swarm.

Least of all it has problems with maneuvrability. The Y-Wings and the Hawk make it into melee range pretty quickmy and that's where they shine because you don't worry about front arcs. If you fly this right you avoid tons of shots and force a lot of K-Turns while you dont need to do any.

Last of all it has a ton of hitpoints. Agility is bad, but hey after all the Falcon has 1 agility too and no one complains!

Also it does actually what you say is desirable. It has no very obvious "kill first" target. You can go after Kyle or you can kill Dutch, but the main damage dealers will be the slightly cheaper Gold Y-Wings.

Also i find it surprising (i used arrogant before and i apologize i don't want to argue again) of you to say that 3 B-Wings are rubbish, period. As i tell you, some day someone will find a powerful list with 3 B-Wings and everyone will be a Bandwagoner suddenly. That's just how Meta works.

Y-Wings are under appreciated. Particularly Dutch, who I predict will see lots more play with wave 3. A-Wings are also under appreciated. Here's why: A and Y wings only have 2 attack, and everyone focuses on attack dice without thinking about the odds of getting hits. 2 dice with a target lock and focus has a very high chance of resulting in 2 hits. Similarly, 4 dice without modifiers has a good chance of resulting in 2 hits.

As for the Academy Tie Swarm, it's very powerful. Unfortunately it typically gets enough shots off to kill almost any target on the first turn they get range, and the same for the following turn and for every subsequent turn after because its nearly impossible to keep up with the attrition. It's very hard for any list to kill 2-3 ties a turn reliably. Interestingly, the all academy list doesn't win tournaments. The modified swarms with named pilots win all the time. The academy swarm is spam, but its pretty strong.

Dutch with ion turret

Gold Y-Wing with blaster turret x2

Kyle with recon specialist and blaster turret

Kyle is EASILY my first kill target. He is huge for your list because he allows the other ships to get TL + Focus combos off. He's 5 hit points! Protected by only 2 agility. Dead the same turn we get in range. I hope you fly him well behind the rest of the squad to at least make it a challenge.

Dutch is next. Lots of hit points, but only 1 agility. No defensive upgrades.

I'm not seeing it. HSF should have mopped the floor with you. What happened in that game?

Here is a variant on the above squad, let me know what you think

100 Pts

Dutch with Blaster Turret

Kyle with Blaster Turret, Recon, and Moldy

Prototype A-wing with Concussion missiles x2

I will have to playtest it but It could be viable.

Obviously the first couple combos go along with giving focus to Dutch so an a-wing can focus and get a TL for the missile shots.

The problem with that list is that the moment you lose Kyle, you lose Dutch's abilities along with him. You must focus to shoot that blaster turret, which means Dutch cannot lock and give more locks unless Kyle throws him a Focus.

It is one thing to synergize, that is the way to get more effectiveness out of your squadrons. But if you create a machine that will breakdown from the loss of any single part, all you have accomplished is to make it more vulnerable than the equivalent number of random ships would have been.

Also, isn't the A-Wing going to be tethered to Dutch "slow as balls" Vander?

The synergistic combo doesn't have to go the entire game, Since Kyle can be range 3 from Dutch, and Dutch can be range 2/3 from his enemies, the distance can be rather large.

Range 2 can be pretty easy to stall maneuver the a-wings, especially for the first pass dutch has a forward 2 along with the a-wings.

The synergy is among all groups

Kyle can focus to a-wing so the a-wing can TL

Kyle can focus to Dutch so Duch can tl

Dutch can TL and give a free TL to Kyle

Dutch can TL and give a free TL to A-wing

If you look at the maximum range (it's quite interesting)

A-wings are at range 3 of their targets (for con missile)

Y-wing is at range 2 of the a-wings (out of fire range for enemy ships or 5 distance away)

Kyle is at range 3 of Dutch (8 Distance away)

A-wings fire missiles first round and begin range 1 combat

Dutch moves into range 2 (since both ships will be moving toward each other in some way.)

Kyle moves into range 2 or 3 depending on how far out he was. (Ideally try to get him in range 2)

Everyone is within buffing range

The Blaster turrets become primed and available, so now you have 12 shots coming after a successful round of missiles (ideally)