Make a stand - be a man - believe in what you do - and you will succeed.

This sounds like the last axiom an idiot hears before he's sent into battle. A fool who stands by his mistakes is still a fool.

I already addressed this in the main discussion thread:

This is a Beta. They asked us to test it an contribute our critiques. We did so. They compensated accordingly.

Last I checked, there were plenty of people who said they were unwilling to try DH2 because it wasn't using OW as a basis. Less than a week ago, people were being condescendingly reminded that,"Nobody is taking away your first edition books. Get over it." Now, all of the sudden, things have changed and the very same people who presented the supposed voice of reason on these boards are crying foul and complaining that FFG compromised themselves creatively and have ignored their true fans.

The hypocrisy around here is thick.

Firstly, as one of the people you're arguing with, I know that I have never said anything like "nobody is taking away your first edition books". Secondly, though obviously a lack of support is an issue, nobody is doing so. Whereas the 2nd edition I have tested and liked is being taken away. So a different scenario. FFG haven't released anything for DH for a year, I think?

What is hypocritical about my position? I liked the new version and said so, I don't like having it taken away and have said so. Where did I ever say that anyone else was wrong to like the old version or say they wanted the new version to be like the old one? And I'd extend that to other posters here who feel similarly to me as well - I don't think people have been saying this. Nor have I claimed that FFG have "ignored their true fans". I feel you're strawman'ing and this is hyperbole. Or if there really is someone who said such things, complain about them , not make general attacks on everyone who liked the new beta and is now upset that it is gone.

It's unfortunate that you were offended. You were obviously not the intended target.

Sorry for the previous rant. I mean't nothing against those that were simply lurking or just wasn't interested. It just irritated me that there was a good many people that showed up and immediately heralded this a victory. It's not a victory. It's basically back to square one. We actually know even less now than we did when the beta rules first came out. I am happy to see people that have an honest renewed interest in helping the development out though.

I herald it as a potential victory for my group's interests. The rules are now headed in the general direction of what we are looking for. While we don't know exactly where the rules are going, we have indications of where they're NOT going by looking at the first form of the Beta. That at least makes us hopeful.

First all I see is hate for the new system, then as soon as they announce that they're changing to make it like the older system all I see is complaint about them getting rid of the stuff you complained about originally. Come on guys give them a break at least they're trying.

If that doesn't work you still have the beta and the updates they gave just use that and fix it yourself.

I'm just saying it's a little sad to see the way some of you guys are acting.

The confusion? They're different "guys". Unhappy people complain loudly and repeatedly. Look at some of these threads where it can be kept going page after page in a ridiculous loop because one or maybe two people are unhappy.

This is exactly what I feared. Game Developers eager to please who don't appreciate that they are probably better game designers than the people complaining and have listened overmuch.

You DON'T just throw out your work and bow to the loudest. Especially with a tiny sample like this that is pre-selected from a small minority of those who are already the most keen DH players.

Now they get the pleasure of all of us who were pretty happy with what they'd offered us tearing strips off them for going back in their attempt to please the previous complainers. And given that a lot of what I saw from previous complainers was clearly motivated / along the lines of: 'don't like all this change - make it more like it was before', I don't think that's going to be nearly as a good a market to aim for.

I think I'm done here. I really liked what they had produced especially after the various small changes. I'm finished. I'm really disappointed to lose this. Disappointed enough that to continue to participate in this beta would just be bitter for me.

Actually, I think you were the intended target. This here shows me how quick you are to dismiss the concerns of those who disagree with you as a vehement minority. You really have no idea one way or the other, misinformed references to "confirmation bias" do nothing to support your ideas, they just allow you to pretend you come from a place of unassailable logic instead of being guilty of the same knee-jerk histrionics as both the Beta haters from Week One or the current batch of dissenters.

Please. Stop.

Stopping now. Sorry Brother Orpheo, I'll be good.

There's a lot of good discussion about how to salvage the good parts of DH2, I will channel my energies in that direction.

But for me, this is just a nightmare, which I hope to awake from.

I honestly don't understand this sentiment. When I found early on that I was in disagreement with the decisions being made, I simply noted a disinterest in purchasing the tentative product at it's conclusion. Less a nightmare as a bit of disappointment. So they made a decision to post a vague description about rolling back some mechanics to be in line with the older editions, and many of the pro-beta-as-is group are claiming perils of the warp.

Does anyone actually believe they'll roll out OW with a thinly coated layer of Inquisitor? They hit strong points with character creation, Influence and Subtlety, and vast chunks of the book elsewhere. If anything, the release they have coming up will be more in-line with the beta than the BC/DW/OW ruleset. I'll bet on that certainty.

As far as I can read it, I see the combat mechanics being the chief target of roll backs. Swapping the thinly-veiled wound system in DH 2.0 with the evident wound system in DH1, ditching action points, so on and so on. We can still expect the rest of the book be largely reminiscent or outright the same.

Until those changes are made though, I think the fiercest voices on the forums could do with a bit of change themselves. Both sides seem to be particularly snippy at each other. In case anyone forgot, I'll remind them we are -all- fans of Dark Heresy (or the Warhammer 40,000 Role Play Game), and we came here to support FFG in their development process. We should act more mature with a lot more decorum than what has been cropping up lately (and I'll admit I've fallen victim to such antics myself in about two or three posts).

Yes there is a good chance we'll get something like the beta. Thakyou for doing the typing I'm too lazy to do.

First all I see is hate for the new system, then as soon as they announce that they're changing to make it like the older system all I see is complaint about them getting rid of the stuff you complained about originally. Come on guys give them a break at least they're trying.

If that doesn't work you still have the beta and the updates they gave just use that and fix it yourself.

I'm just saying it's a little sad to see the way some of you guys are acting.

The confusion? They're different "guys". Unhappy people complain loudly and repeatedly. Look at some of these threads where it can be kept going page after page in a ridiculous loop because one or maybe two people are unhappy.

This is exactly what I feared. Game Developers eager to please who don't appreciate that they are probably better game designers than the people complaining and have listened overmuch.

You DON'T just throw out your work and bow to the loudest. Especially with a tiny sample like this that is pre-selected from a small minority of those who are already the most keen DH players.

Now they get the pleasure of all of us who were pretty happy with what they'd offered us tearing strips off them for going back in their attempt to please the previous complainers. And given that a lot of what I saw from previous complainers was clearly motivated / along the lines of: 'don't like all this change - make it more like it was before', I don't think that's going to be nearly as a good a market to aim for.

I think I'm done here. I really liked what they had produced especially after the various small changes. I'm finished. I'm really disappointed to lose this. Disappointed enough that to continue to participate in this beta would just be bitter for me.

Actually, I think you were the intended target. This here shows me how quick you are to dismiss the concerns of those who disagree with you as a vehement minority. You really have no idea one way

Where in my post did I refer to any faction as being a "minority", I didn't . I said we couldn't know what the general case was because we had a very small sample size that had massive self-selection bias. And if I'm the "intended target" for your attacks on people saying other people should "get over it" or "no-one is taking away your first edition books" or being "hypocritical" then feel free to show me where I said such things either exactly or generally. Because I haven't.

We're done with this conversation, I think.