Umm, well, the point of playtesting is testing to see what works best. Playtesting ≠ setting a final precedent. They've made a decision, although you don't necessarily have to like it. I don't like designated hitters in baseball, but there they are.

Rather then admit they made a mistake they have basically said, "We are right, and we built the turret this way"

Why would they do that?

The rulling makes sense by the RAW, DC says you can't use a focus token against him, and that would include not being able to pay to fire the blaster turret. The FAQ ruling didn't really shock anyone that I know. Sure not everyone agreed with it, but it's not like the ruling came somewhere way out of left field and was something no one was already saying.

So why would they make the ruling they did, if they didn't intend for it to work that way? Even if the orginal intention was something else, that doesn't really mean anything. Maybe they discovered in playtesting that it what they had planed on didn't work well.

But any time some makes a comment like the one above, they should really provide some sort of logical argument for why the compay would do something like that. The FAQ ruling is not cheap, at least not in terms of money/resources...

So if they made that rulling for some reason, other then because it's the one they thought made the most sense, then what reason do they have?

the problem isn't dark cursed since his ability is a conditional ability, the problem is with jax which is a static ability which basically hose the BT by being on the board, and i personally have no qualms with DC but Jax ability on the other hand is a little too much especially for his points

So the problem with Dark Curse is that there exists an easier to attack, 11pt more ship? You're adapting your arguements here, adapt your in game tactics too.

wha?

i have no problem with Dark Cursed as i said previously, since his cost and ability is well balance and doesn't forced it's opponent to make it a priority which is the case with Jax which for its cost:

1) hosed weapon efficiency (BT/adv torp/anything else down the road) and other focus/evade manipulation ships

2) is a static ability which only draw back is it's range of influence

3) forced it's opp to react to it just by being on the board

4) (this is a more of a personal gripe) putting 2 ability on jax which really limits design for future released to fall into either mediocre design ships or ships that has gradual power creep with each wave.

and if you keep saying the solution is to adapt to it, i would like you to ask you to enquirer any of your friends that play MtG during the original Mirrodin block and ask them how fun was the environment back then.

if you don't have the story goes like this, there was one prominent deck at that time (which if i recall correctly = 60% of tornament decks that were use) and the other decks were made to specifically counter it.

and lets just say it wasn't much fun.

i'm not saying that Jax is game breaking (yet) but what i'm saying is that it's not fun to play against a ship where you can't generally ignore (which ships like dark curse and wedge at least gives you the option to do so)

My point is that I don't personally believe it was intended that a blaster turret could not attack Dark Curse. In fact I know some play testers, at Gencon who have personally said, "In play testing, they did attack dark curse, but that they just weren't allowed to use focus to change results. However, they could still attack.

I think that after FF created the Blaster Turret and it was released that this problem arose. When everyone started saying, "hey you can't attack my dark curse because you are using a focus token" Rather then admit they made a mistake they have basically said, "We are right, and we built the turret this way" I just think they took the cheap way out and they never intended for this to be an issue or even anticipated it.

My two cents

That might even be what happened but i can't tell...

Concerning ship roles, it's just not true that the shuttle and the HWK are to be seen as support ships with no other reason to exist. The shuttle can hold its own because it's dirt cheap for its stats. And there are examples of purely static shuttles only lists that might even be competitive. And at least the shuttle has the support system slot on top of its supportive pilot skills. Remember it's the B-Wing for the Rebels that has it. The HWK needs a turret. If not you have a lot of points that pose no threat to an enemy even with Jan Ors... I'd rather kill wedge and leave Jan till the end because if he has no turret he can't fight for himself.

And i am not sure that a Kyle is really worth it if you deck him out to over 25 points. That's a quarter of your list that literally just gives out ficus tokens. Well Garven does that too albeit a little more restrictive, and he sits in a ship not needing any upgrades to be effective.

If we then take away the blaster turret (as that's what happens if this ruling stays) we make the HWK a very unreliable choice. Especially with those 2 imperial pilots but especially Dark Curse.

All turret lists just need to be an option to play and if its only for diversity of the game. I don't even think they would be overly strong, just as it is now there is no way to win against Curse.

Try 3 gold squadron without any upgrades against Dark Curse. Even they hardly have a chance to win the matchup...

I still don't see a problem here. Y-Wings without upgrades are bad ships. A TIE fighter should be able to fly circles around them.

Dark Curse is a unique pilot with three whole hit points, and yet you're acting like he's broken the game because ONE weapon can't target him. Take an ion cannon. Watch how quickly he dies once he takes even one hit. I mean, an X-Wing can do it in one lucky shot. So what is you're complaining about exactly? It seems like the actual complaint is that you can't fly a list consisting of ONLY Blaster turrets and win 100% of the time. Well, guess what: that's true even without Dark Curse or Jax. Want to fly 4 HWKs with blasters? Go ahead. It's a bad list, regardless of whether Dark Curse turns up or not.

i'm not saying that Jax is game breaking (yet) but what i'm saying is that it's not fun to play against a ship where you can't generally ignore (which ships like dark curse and wedge at least gives you the option to do so)

Perhaps you're familiar with Biggs. He's been around a while, and unlike Jax or DC, is a ship you actually cannot ignore, no matter what you WANT to do. Has Biggs broken the game?

The HWK can fight without a turret. One die may be god awful but it's still an option and you know what else is an option? Ion turrets. Which is better than the blaster in 9 out of ten situations anyway. Yes it costs more but that's because it's better. Heck it even comes with HWKs too so you can't even say they "intended" the HWKs to use blaster turrets only. The HWK has nearly the same defensive stats as an x-wing. It's dirt cheap. The only bad things about it are a bad dial and the lowest attack stat in the game. Honestly a good crewman is probably a better investment in most HWKs anyway. Go ahead, Ignore Jan and focus on the higher attack pilots. That's just means I don't have to skirt her around the edge as carefully and can focus her boosts on whatever one of my ships has the best shot instead of whichever one puts her at the least risk. Like any other synergy ships you ignore Jan, Kyle, and Roark at your own peril. They might not do much if they're the last man standing but if they do they're jobs right they won't be.

I still don't see a problem here. Y-Wings without upgrades are bad ships. A TIE fighter should be able to fly circles around them.

Dark Curse is a unique pilot with three whole hit points, and yet you're acting like he's broken the game because ONE weapon can't target him. Take an ion cannon. Watch how quickly he dies once he takes even one hit. I mean, an X-Wing can do it in one lucky shot. So what is you're complaining about exactly? It seems like the actual complaint is that you can't fly a list consisting of ONLY Blaster turrets and win 100% of the time. Well, guess what: that's true even without Dark Curse or Jax. Want to fly 4 HWKs with blasters? Go ahead. It's a bad list, regardless of whether Dark Curse turns up or not.

i'm not saying that Jax is game breaking (yet) but what i'm saying is that it's not fun to play against a ship where you can't generally ignore (which ships like dark curse and wedge at least gives you the option to do so)

Perhaps you're familiar with Biggs. He's been around a while, and unlike Jax or DC, is a ship you actually cannot ignore, no matter what you WANT to do. Has Biggs broken the game?

And yes 4 HWK's with blaster turrets is a bad list, but if not for that ruling with Dark Curse it would be viable at least. I don't want anything overpowered but just something where you don't have to say oh you have Dark Curse congrats you won. It's a 16 point ship that just breaks any list that dares to take a few blaster turrets. Whether there are on Y-Wings or HWK's carrying them does not even make a huge difference because Y-Wings have just a tiny little more chances of hitting him.

The blaster turrets rule gimps it enough, it does just not need that Dark Curse issue on top of that.

The HWK can fight without a turret. One die may be god awful but it's still an option and you know what else is an option? Ion turrets. Which is better than the blaster in 9 out of ten situations anyway. Yes it costs more but that's because it's better. Heck it even comes with HWKs too so you can't even say they "intended" the HWKs to use blaster turrets only. The HWK has nearly the same defensive stats as an x-wing. It's dirt cheap. The only bad things about it are a bad dial and the lowest attack stat in the game. Honestly a good crewman is probably a better investment in most HWKs anyway. Go ahead, Ignore Jan and focus on the higher attack pilots. That's just means I don't have to skirt her around the edge as carefully and can focus her boosts on whatever one of my ships has the best shot instead of whichever one puts her at the least risk. Like any other synergy ships you ignore Jan, Kyle, and Roark at your own peril. They might not do much if they're the last man standing but if they do they're jobs right they won't be.

Concerning the ion cannon. Yes it probably is better to the point that there is just no real point in taking a nlaster turret. But that's largely due to these recent rulings. The blaster turret should be a viable alternative, but it just isn't.

Now you tell me the Blaster turret is not good. I agree but i think this is the core of the problem!

Well first of all, yes i think that Dark Curse is game breaking now, he was strong before for countering Han, but now it has become a bit much. It is the only weapon/ship combination where you can just not fire at all. There might be bad matchups, but this is outright impossible. Then why the hell do they even make the blaster turret if they gimp it before it even hits the tables.

And yes 4 HWK's with blaster turrets is a bad list, but if not for that ruling with Dark Curse it would be viable at least. I don't want anything overpowered but just something where you don't have to say oh you have Dark Curse congrats you won. It's a 16 point ship that just breaks any list that dares to take a few blaster turrets. Whether there are on Y-Wings or HWK's carrying them does not even make a huge difference because Y-Wings have just a tiny little more chances of hitting him.

The blaster turrets rule gimps it enough, it does just not need that Dark Curse issue on top of that.

"Dark Curse is game breaking"??? I think that is a bit much and can't agree. It is a single weapon system and a single pilot and you are saying the entire game is broken? Don't you think that may be a rather broad statement?

Your argument through most of this has been points. But looking at points only fully ignores the synergies, both strengths and weakness, of builds. Some ships are better suited for support. You're own argument states the 4 HWK build is both a bad list and viable at the same time without Dark Curse.

I don't follow that logic. Why wasn't there people saying the game was broken when TIE Advanced squads didn't make it in competitive games?

The game will survive without every build being based on a single weapon system, or even including it.

It's a game, it's fun, your issue is with a very small part of the game that most (not all) think is just fine. I personally like a counter to the rebel scum.

Game breaking is playing something like 5 dark curses with stealth device

Well first of all, yes i think that Dark Curse is game breaking now, he was strong before for countering Han, but now it has become a bit much. It is the only weapon/ship combination where you can just not fire at all. There might be bad matchups, but this is outright impossible. Then why the hell do they even make the blaster turret if they gimp it before it even hits the tables.

And yes 4 HWK's with blaster turrets is a bad list, but if not for that ruling with Dark Curse it would be viable at least. I don't want anything overpowered but just something where you don't have to say oh you have Dark Curse congrats you won. It's a 16 point ship that just breaks any list that dares to take a few blaster turrets. Whether there are on Y-Wings or HWK's carrying them does not even make a huge difference because Y-Wings have just a tiny little more chances of hitting him.

The blaster turrets rule gimps it enough, it does just not need that Dark Curse issue on top of that.

"Dark Curse is game breaking"??? I think that is a bit much and can't agree. It is a single weapon system and a single pilot and you are saying the entire game is broken? Don't you think that may be a rather broad statement?

You point through most of this has been points. But looking at points only fully ignores the synergies both strengths and weakness of builds. Some ships are better suited for support. You're own argument states the 4 HWK build is both a bad list and viable at the same time without Dark Curse.

I don't follow that logic. Why wasn't there people saying the game was broken when TIE Advanced squads didn't make it in competitive games?

The game will survive without every build being based on a single weapon system, or even including it.

It's a game, it's fun, you issue is with a very small part of the game that most (not all) think is just fine. I personally like a counter to the rebel scum.

Concerning the Advanced Ties, they should indeed cost one point less if you ask me... We can always complain!

And yes i think the 4 blaster turret lists would be viable but not too strong if not for the Dark Curse ruling. What's not to understand about that. Of course it's your good right to disagree.

And i don't say the whole game is broken but as you can see this part of it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Dark Curse counters the abilities of Han Solo, Garven Dreis, Dutch Vander plus Deadeye, blaster turrets, and of course like always focus actions and Target locks. Which are of course related to him countering Garven and Dutch. [...]

And i don't say the whole game is broken but as you can see this part of it makes absolutely no sense to me.

I apologize and I'm not trying to simply be contrary but it seems to me everyone was fine with all of these until the Blaster Turret and HWK came out; after this retroactively the rest of it was broken.

Well, either way good luck with him.

No need for apologies. We can disagree you always stayed polite and have your own point of view, just as i do. There is nothing wrong with that.

But here something Jay Little said in his interview when he was asked how he prefers to play X-Wing:

"With my kids!

But if I’m going to be playing a structured game, say 100 points, I like to create random squadrons. First I’ll choose rebel or Empire, then shuffle up all their ships. Then I start to deal ships out until I hit the 80-90 point range. Once I’ve gotten to that level, then I start looking at upgrades to make up the difference. I’ll even shuffle each upgrade type into separate decks and randomly pick those, as well.

One reason I enjoy playing this way so much is I might find a combination of powers or effects I hadn’t considered before, and it also makes me really focus and play smart. I like seeing if the game is balanced to the point where I feel that virtually any 100 point build with 3-5 ships is viable. It may not be invincible, but it has a chance."

Okay he talks about random squadrons here, i am aware of that. But he also says that any 100 pount squadron should be viable. Now i was all the time talking about an optimized squadron based around blaster turrets. Which Dark Curse makes obsolete. I can not imagine any way of this winning against Dark Curse. And that's why up to this point i always found him a strong choice, but not broken. But now that he completely can take every ship with a blaster turret out of the equation that a game of X-Wing finally is, i think he has tipped over to "overly strong" instead of just a "good choice".

Buz again i am aware that this is only my point of view and i am only trying to explain here why as a result i find Dark Curses ability too strong and Blaster turret really a weak choice now, when it shouldn't be. If everyone says that it's fine i may also be wrong.

Really. House rules = fun. I'm not a prudish fanatic about these matters. All house rules are disclosed where they differ from official rules.

I still don't see a problem here. Y-Wings without upgrades are bad ships. A TIE fighter should be able to fly circles around them.

Dark Curse is a unique pilot with three whole hit points, and yet you're acting like he's broken the game because ONE weapon can't target him. Take an ion cannon. Watch how quickly he dies once he takes even one hit. I mean, an X-Wing can do it in one lucky shot. So what is you're complaining about exactly? It seems like the actual complaint is that you can't fly a list consisting of ONLY Blaster turrets and win 100% of the time. Well, guess what: that's true even without Dark Curse or Jax. Want to fly 4 HWKs with blasters? Go ahead. It's a bad list, regardless of whether Dark Curse turns up or not.

i'm not saying that Jax is game breaking (yet) but what i'm saying is that it's not fun to play against a ship where you can't generally ignore (which ships like dark curse and wedge at least gives you the option to do so)

Perhaps you're familiar with Biggs. He's been around a while, and unlike Jax or DC, is a ship you actually cannot ignore, no matter what you WANT to do. Has Biggs broken the game?

Well first of all, yes i think that Dark Curse is game breaking now, he was strong before for countering Han, but now it has become a bit much. It is the only weapon/ship combination where you can just not fire at all. There might be bad matchups, but this is outright impossible. Then why the hell do they even make the blaster turret if they gimp it before it even hits the tables.

And yes 4 HWK's with blaster turrets is a bad list, but if not for that ruling with Dark Curse it would be viable at least. I don't want anything overpowered but just something where you don't have to say oh you have Dark Curse congrats you won. It's a 16 point ship that just breaks any list that dares to take a few blaster turrets. Whether there are on Y-Wings or HWK's carrying them does not even make a huge difference because Y-Wings have just a tiny little more chances of hitting him.

The blaster turrets rule gimps it enough, it does just not need that Dark Curse issue on top of that.

Lol even in a Han shoots first build you have 2 x wings which annihilate dark curse. He is still just a regular tie/Ln at the end of the day and has no effect on the rest of the squad. He is literally the cheapest and weakest fighter in the entire game. You are exaggerating just to justify your point. Dark curse isn't even in most winning builds in tournaments. Its still Han shoots first and Tie swarms variants that win those. And yet your claiming this ship is overpowered compared to ships that ACTUALLY win. Any ship with any 3 dice non focus weapon can one shot him and the biggest kicker of all he is still just a 2 dice offensive ship making him not a major threat.

Jax on the other hand I agree he is one of the strongest imperial ships and is a priority target (which btw DC is not) because he boosts the rest of his squad. He also makes focus weapons completely useless by just being near them (something DC does not, you still have other targets).

I still don't see a problem here. Y-Wings without upgrades are bad ships. A TIE fighter should be able to fly circles around them.

Dark Curse is a unique pilot with three whole hit points, and yet you're acting like he's broken the game because ONE weapon can't target him. Take an ion cannon. Watch how quickly he dies once he takes even one hit. I mean, an X-Wing can do it in one lucky shot. So what is you're complaining about exactly? It seems like the actual complaint is that you can't fly a list consisting of ONLY Blaster turrets and win 100% of the time. Well, guess what: that's true even without Dark Curse or Jax. Want to fly 4 HWKs with blasters? Go ahead. It's a bad list, regardless of whether Dark Curse turns up or not.

i'm not saying that Jax is game breaking (yet) but what i'm saying is that it's not fun to play against a ship where you can't generally ignore (which ships like dark curse and wedge at least gives you the option to do so)

Perhaps you're familiar with Biggs. He's been around a while, and unlike Jax or DC, is a ship you actually cannot ignore, no matter what you WANT to do. Has Biggs broken the game?

Well first of all, yes i think that Dark Curse is game breaking now, he was strong before for countering Han, but now it has become a bit much. It is the only weapon/ship combination where you can just not fire at all. There might be bad matchups, but this is outright impossible. Then why the hell do they even make the blaster turret if they gimp it before it even hits the tables.

And yes 4 HWK's with blaster turrets is a bad list, but if not for that ruling with Dark Curse it would be viable at least. I don't want anything overpowered but just something where you don't have to say oh you have Dark Curse congrats you won. It's a 16 point ship that just breaks any list that dares to take a few blaster turrets. Whether there are on Y-Wings or HWK's carrying them does not even make a huge difference because Y-Wings have just a tiny little more chances of hitting him.

The blaster turrets rule gimps it enough, it does just not need that Dark Curse issue on top of that.

You're not going to understand why Dark Curse is no big deal because of your myopic position. The good people here have tried to explain it to you, but you seem incapable of seeing that this game is all about kill order. Dark Curse is NEVER the first kill target. So, if you leave him for last, you will have already won or lost without even having dealt with him. No more crying.

but he counters so much that he is just a no-brainer now.

Honestly. Dark Curse has been a thorn in the side of Garven, Dutch, Horton, Han, and Howlrunner since day one. But he's a low dmage ship that crumbles like a wet paper bag once you actuall manage to hit him so I've never been concerned.

Quite right. I've just lost him to a point blank hit from an X-wing (2 crits and 2 regular hits) when he rolled 1 evade and 2 blanks. Something similar happened the last time I used him.

How about this list to make the blaster turret as hard-hitting as possible but also have answers for direct counters (IE dark curse)

Kyle Katarn (21) (27)

-Moldy Crow (3)

-Recon Specialist (3)

Horton Salm (25) (29)

-Blaster Turret (4)

Gold Squadron (18) (23)

-Ion Turret (5)

Rookie Pilot (21)

100 points total. You have Kyle pooping focus tokens to everyone nearby, which Horton can gobble up and add to his own defensive focus to maximize his ludicrousness of the turret. When dark curse comes screaming in, hit him with the ion cannon and rookie X-wing, since all his fire will be focused on the more dangerous horton/kyle combo. The X always slings 3 dice, Horton will nearly always sling 3 dice, the GSP slings 3 (but maxes out at 1 damage) and Kyle can try to ping for 1 but should really be staying out of it. You could swap the GSP/Ion combo for an ion turret and vet instincts on Kyle and a Prototype Pilot for the 4th ship, giving you a blocker in the prototype and making both named pilots PS8 with turrets

I too had that happen to me when I played Dark Curse. An X-Wing rolled three dice and scored three hits. I rolled four evade dice because I had a Stealth Device, and they were all blank. Boom. That was the second round of the game too. Dark Curse is still easily killed if the rolls aren't in his favor, like any TIE.

I can't edit at work, or else I would edit my above...

I'd also like to throw my two cents in on the "Dark Curse invalidates entire lists" argument with the following: If you plan your list so that you REQUIRE focus tokens to shoot your only weapons, then you are failing in list building. If your list can be invalidated by a single ship, then you, the list builder, have failed to include enough variety, enough ways to handle different opponents, enough offensive options to sling at your opponent, and you deserve to watch DC swim around your helpless Y-wings/HWKs and laugh

I'd also like to throw my two cents in on the "Dark Curse invalidates entire lists" argument with the following:

Other issue is that even if you are fighting a TF swarm with DC in it. You still only have 1 of 8 targets you can't fire on.

If you ignore DC and focus on everything else first. Then you will either win or lose based on how well you play and how good yoru list is. DC will not and can not cost you the game.

Jax on the other hand, in theory he could have a bigger impact on a list that relies on blaster turrets. But even then there's ways to deal with him, like staying out side of range 1.

Reading this thread you would think DC has 6 agility and a giant stack of focus/evade tokens. Dark Curse is not that hard to hit, especially if/when he has used his focus. With 3 agility and no focus he only evades one damage per shot on average. Even with a couple generic HWKs, you can get a range one hit through that. 2 dice vs. 3 dice unfocused is an even odds shot (8 pips vs 9 pips), with the distribution in favor of the attacker.

Not to mention that people were complaining about DC vs. Solo, when that is usually Dark Curse's worst matchup. 3 dice attacks with marksman and gunner demolish Dark Curse at any range. Unless something really strange happens with dice it will be one or two rounds at most before DC goes pop even if nobody else shoots at him.

Good job, team! I think we've beaten this one into the ground.

If you still insist on taking the 4 HWK build, try 2 blasters and 2 ion. Enjoy.

You're not going to understand why Dark Curse is no big deal because of your myopic position. The good people here have tried to explain it to you, but you seem incapable of seeing that this game is all about kill order. Dark Curse is NEVER the first kill target. So, if you leave him for last, you will have already won or lost without even having dealt with him. No more crying.

Stop being offensive and. I have never been. I can disagree, and i do.

I just agree in one single point with you. This game is about kill priority. Yes it is. And if you have a HWK with blaster turret the imperial side that has Dark Curse will just focus your other ships so at the end it will be Dark Curse against anything you have with a blaster turret. Which in return forces you to kill Dark Curse first as long as you have a ship capable of doing it. That way you will ignore more important targets. I see him more and more arpund here and there are **** good reasons to play him as anyone capable of thinking for himself can see.

Also you already have won or lost anyway? Well if you never have tight games you are playing a different X-Wing than i am.