Let's say you are down to one hull on a ship with Darth Vader... Can you still use his special ability, or do you have to be able to actually take both damage to use it (i.e, at least 2 hull or 1 hull and 1 shield)?

There's still debate about that subject.

• Some people believe that Vader could not use the ability in first place. In other words, he cannot commit suicide.
• Other people think that Vader uses the ability, but the ship is destroyed first and his ability fizzles without taking effect.
• Finally, others think that Vader gets to use the ability and his ship is destroyed in the process.

I'm more on line with this last way of thinking for several reasons.

- The rules are clear in that ships can receive more damage cards than their hull value. Most of the time it's irrelevant, but on certain situations it does matter.

- Saying that the damage kills and interrupts Vader before activating the ability is kind of a paradox. Because if he doesn't use the ability, why he takes damage in first place?. It would be like saying that the explosion from the bomb-vest kills the suicide terrorist before he can press the button.

- Nowhere is stated that ships cannot commit suicide. On the contrary, ships are allowed everywhere on the rules to execute potentially (even certain) suicide maneuvers.

In the end, and until the FAQ clears the discussion, nothing is set on stone. Feel free to theorize/argue your favorite interpretation.

I tend to agree with the 3rd one...due to the first reason.

if the rules state that a ship can take more damage than they have hull points left, then yes you can still use that ability

The other interesting question is:
What happens first, Vader's ship being destroyed or the enemy ship being damaged/destroyed?

I believe that both happen "at the same time" in a manner similar to having two ships with equal initiative destroy one another. So if Vader and his target were both the last ships on the board and this action destroys both of them, then the player with Initiative would win the game.

I would agree with that

The other interesting question is:
What happens first, Vader's ship being destroyed or the enemy ship being damaged/destroyed?

I believe that both happen "at the same time" in a manner similar to having two ships with equal initiative destroy one another. So if Vader and his target were both the last ships on the board and this action destroys both of them, then the player with Initiative would win the game.

Interesting, many thought I hadn't even considered.

I was pretty sure he could commit suicide given you can flee the battle field which effectively destroys your ship. So, that is clearly allowed.

I was more concerned about him having to take more damage than he could, but I now see that is ok, too.

Seems to me, too, that everything would be simultaneous. The part of the ability in question contains no punctuation to suggest they are two different steps. The first part and second part are clearly two different steps (i.e., you must attack a ship first, then use Vader's ability). Since the second part isn't worded like this, it seems like it would be simultaneous. Look forward to hearing the FAQ answer to this one.

I guess the other interesting situation comes with simultaneous fire and if the ship that has Vader as a crew member is destroyed first, can they still take the 2 damage? It would only come into play if you don't have initiative

I guess the other interesting situation comes with simultaneous fire and if the ship that has Vader as a crew member is destroyed first, can they still take the 2 damage? It would only come into play if you don't have initiative

That is a good question. I'd guess yes since abilities like Biggs' work even if he is destroyed and hasn't had a chance to fire yet.

EDIT: If Biggs can keep taking damage even after he is destroyed, why can't a ship that Vader is on.

Another Vader Crew Card question but concerning 'Stealth Device'

Does using Vader on an enemy ship cause it to lose a 'Stealth Device' ? I thought the newest FAQ settled that question as a NO, but my buddy disagreed and we settled on the ship keeping the 'Stealth Device' and posting to the forums to see what everyone else thinks for future knowledge.

Thanks

Easy one first: No, Vader will not remove a Stealth Device from either ship. Stealth is only removed on a hit, which is defined as having uncanceled hit or crit results during Step 6.

On the "Can you do it if you only have one left" question, I'm inclined to say no. The wording is, IMHO, pretty straightfoward: "suffer two damage to cause..." If you don't suffer two damage, you don't get to do the "to..." part. It's not "Suffer two damage. Cause one {Critical Hit} result." - the "Do X to Y" is clearly a prerequisite. Since a ship is removed immediately upon having damage = hull, it couldn't suffer the two damage, because it would be removed after suffering the first. So if you had two hull left, you'd destroy yourself in the process but Vader would inflict his damage. But with one, you can't complete the process.

IMHO, this is exactly the same as a missile. "Spend your target lock to perform..." If Vader's ability goes off even though the prerequisite wasn't met, the exact same argument could be made for "I declared the missile when I didn't have a target lock, but since I used it I still get to perform the action because failing the first part doesn't stop the second part."

That's my interpretation, but it may very well be incorrect, or at the very least may fall victim to the rash of "because I said so" rulings we're getting lately. Someone (don't remember who) said they asked one of the FFG guys about it at GenCon, and got a response that you could use Vader. <shrug> Take it for what it's worth.

Easy one first: No, Vader will not remove a Stealth Device from either ship. Stealth is only removed on a hit, which is defined as having uncanceled hit or crit results during Step 6.

On the "Can you do it if you only have one left" question, I'm inclined to say no. The wording is, IMHO, pretty straightfoward: "suffer two damage to cause..." If you don't suffer two damage, you don't get to do the "to..." part. It's not "Suffer two damage. Cause one {Critical Hit} result." - the "Do X to Y" is clearly a prerequisite. Since a ship is removed immediately upon having damage = hull, it couldn't suffer the two damage, because it would be removed after suffering the first. So if you had two hull left, you'd destroy yourself in the process but Vader would inflict his damage. But with one, you can't complete the process.

IMHO, this is exactly the same as a missile. "Spend your target lock to perform..." If Vader's ability goes off even though the prerequisite wasn't met, the exact same argument could be made for "I declared the missile when I didn't have a target lock, but since I used it I still get to perform the action because failing the first part doesn't stop the second part."

That's my interpretation, but it may very well be incorrect, or at the very least may fall victim to the rash of "because I said so" rulings we're getting lately. Someone (don't remember who) said they asked one of the FFG guys about it at GenCon, and got a response that you could use Vader. <shrug> Take it for what it's worth.

Buhallin, I think you are putting way too much emphasis or weight into the meaning of "suffer two damage..." wording; I would believe it is simply in order to make it "pricy" to use the ability.

And ship can take/receive more Damage Cards than it's hull value:

D estroying S hips

When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship

is equal to or greater than its hull value, the

ship is immediately destroyed (faceup and facedown

cards count toward this total). Immediately remove

the destroyed ship from the play area, discard all of

its Damage cards to a faceup discard pile next to

the Damage deck, and return all of its tokens to their

respective supplies.

Bottom line: I am putting my 2 cents worth in on the last option; that you may use DV even with 1 hull left. But this point of view can (will??) easily be countered by saying that "that's just the way you WANT it to work"

Buhallin -

I agree with your reasoning that the prerequisite "suffer 2 damage" must be satisfied in its entirety in order for the ability to work at all. Regardless of what ability or upgrade we are looking at, if you do not meet (all) the requirements, you cannot perform the action.

However, I believe it has been established a ship can indeed suffer more damage than it has hull points, so it seems to me that the flaw is the premise of having "one damage left" or "one hull left". It is entirely legal to suffer 2 (or 3 or more) damage even if your ship would be destroyed by one.

The issue of course is whether that damage is handed out one at a time, or all at once. Again, it seems that the precedent is all at once, which is how a ship can end up with more damage than hull under other circumstances like shooting. After resolving the attack/action that causes the damage, we examine the ship and if the total damage equals or exceeds the hull then the ship is removed. We do not apply damage one at a time and remove the ship the moment damage equals hull.

Do you see it differently?

Can't we agree on the following: DV crew card is a rather suicidal crew card?? And everytime one starts to get too deep in to timing issues "we" get in all kinds of trouble?

IMO the 2 x suffer Damage isn't dealt one at a time but "at the same time". I believe it is that way simply because there is no reasonable argument for it being dealt any other way since it is simply 2 "vanilla"or "Regular" Damage so there isn't a Crit that might influence anything.

Furthermore I would think that the FAQ page 2, 2nd column indirectly also support the viability of DV crew when you read the question regarding effects/abilities in simultaneous attacks:

Q: When the Simultaneous Attack Rule keeps

a ship in play until it performs its attack, are

all effects pertaining to that ship still in play?

A: Yes. Effects from the ship’s pilot ability, upgrades,

Damage cards, etc. are still active and may affect

the game.

Same thing goes for Determination: just last night I had a game where my Major Rhymer survived 2 times when I drew 2 Criticial Damage both with Pilot "injuries" which wasn't resolved since I had Determination on him.

So I would still say that if you have DV Crew and wish to go kamikaze I would think that it's perfectly legal and almost what they had in mind ;-)

The issue of course is whether that damage is handed out one at a time, or all at once. Again, it seems that the precedent is all at once, which is how a ship can end up with more damage than hull under other circumstances like shooting. After resolving the attack/action that causes the damage, we examine the ship and if the total damage equals or exceeds the hull then the ship is removed. We do not apply damage one at a time and remove the ship the moment damage equals hull.

I entirely agree with the above.

When you suffer damage, cards are dealt one at a time, but you have to suffer all damage from a given source, and then, check for destruction.

IMO, I believe that Buhallin is interpreting the "deal one card at a time" clause under 'suffering damage' as a mandate to check for destruction after every card is dealt. However, when suffering damage, nowhere is stated that you check for destruction after every card. That comes from thin air. You only check for shield tokens presence or not, and if not, you deal a card. That's all. In fact, -Suffering Damage- and -Ship's destruction- are different rules sections.

And let me illustrate further with an example. Let's say that Vader's ship is destroyed by a pilot with the same Pilot Skill that won initiative. In this situation, Vader's ship lingers on the play area due to the "simultaneous attack rule", because he had no opportunity to attack yet. However it retains all damage cards, according to the rules, and you can stack even more damage cards on him, because the entire rebel fleet with the same pilot skill is trying to get a lucky "Blinded Pilot" critical to reduce its future 'last attack' effectiveness. Vader's ship ends at -16 hull. However, at this point Buhallin would say that when the turn for the ship to attack comes, Vader would activate, and if the ship had gunner, we could even argue that Vader gets a second activation. Total hull... -20.

So that's it, Vader could not use his ability at "1 hull", but he could do it at "-16 hull"... Which is silly.

The rules are clear in that ships can receive more damage cards than their hull value. And the only way to apply that clause consistently is that you should only check for destruction after suffering all damage from ONE given source. Most of the time that's irrelevant, true, and there is even times where we don't even draw cards from the deck....We simply do the mental math... We acknowledge that "you are/ I'm destroyed" and we remove the ship from the play area... without wasting further time. But from a strict application of the rules, we should deal all damage cards, even if it is irrelevant.

Again, it seems that the precedent is all at once, which is how a ship can end up with more damage than hull under other circumstances like shooting.

The rules are clear in that ships can receive more damage cards than their hull value. And the only way to apply that clause consistently is that you should only check for destruction after suffering all damage from ONE given source.

This comes up a lot to justify this argument, but it's wrong. There are several ways ships can exceed their hull value, even if the destruction check is constant. The obvious one is simultaneous fire - how you can make this argument in the same post you actually discuss simultaneous fire is beyond me. But even ignoring that, say an X-wing has two damage, and draws a Direct Hit critical. Damage is now exceeding hull.

Given those cases, any argument that "X must be true or Y is pointless" simply doesn't hold, because we have several other situations which point to the need for Y.

Here's what we know about how damage is resolved:

- Damage is dealt one at a time

- When damage meets or exceeds the hull value, the ship is removed immediately

- Abilities and rule checks can and do activate between each damage card being dealt

If someone can cite an actual rule that says you only check after all damage, that would be different, but there isn't one. Yes, it can lead to some strangeness for Vader in a simultaneous attack situation, but the alternative is even weirder. If the destruction check is not an always-on rule, but only kicks in after damage, then abilities which can change the damage state of a ship without actually doing damage can't destroy a ship. Specifically, either a Proton Bomb hit or a Saboteur flipping a Direct Hit to destroy a ship would not actually destroy the ship.

So if you're going to argue that the ship isn't destroyed immediately, you have to argue/show one of a few possible things:

- Destruction check IS NOT "always on". But if this is the case, Proton Bomb/Saboteur can't destroy a ship

- Destruction check IS "always on" but can't interrupt the damage process. We know this is not true, because we know abilities can interrupt it (Chewie crew)

- Destruction check IS "always on" and could theoretically interrupt the damage process, but something suspends the check during the damage process. I think this is the closest outcome of the "meets or exceeds" argument, but again that relies on there being no other purpose for the "meets or exceeds", which isn't the case.

And let me illustrate further with an example. Let's say that Vader's ship is destroyed by a pilot with the same Pilot Skill that won initiative. In this situation, Vader's ship lingers on the play area due to the "simultaneous attack rule", because he had no opportunity to attack yet. However it retains all damage cards, according to the rules, and you can stack even more damage cards on him, because the entire rebel fleet with the same pilot skill is trying to get a lucky "Blinded Pilot" critical to reduce its future 'last attack' effectiveness. Vader's ship ends at -16 hull. However, at this point Buhallin would say that when the turn for the ship to attack comes, Vader would activate, and if the ship had gunner, we could even argue that Vader gets a second activation. Total hull... -20.

So that's it, Vader could not use his ability at "1 hull", but he could do it at "-16 hull"... Which is silly.

Yeah, it seems silly, but unless I'm mistaken, it's the position you're taking as well. Unless I'm mistaken, the same ship lingering in the same simultaneous fire situation would still be able to activate Vader by your interpretation.

That's correct, but under my interpretation, Vader gets to activate his ability both at '1 hull' and at '-16 hull', which makes suffering damage and activating abilities consistent in both ways.

At 1 hull because he receives 2 damage cards that places the at -1 hull.

And at -16 hull because he receives 2 damage cards that place him at -18 hull.

Also note that the expression 'A ship is at 1 hull' is incorrect. Hull points never get added or subtracted. You only add damage cards till they equal or exceed ship's hull value, at which point the ship is destroyed. We use the expression 'at 1 hull' as a colloquial and quick way of saying that dealing one or more damage cards will destroy the ship.

... If the destruction check is not an always-on rule, but only kicks in after damage, then abilities which can change the damage state of a ship without actually doing damage can't destroy a ship. Specifically, either a Proton Bomb hit or a Saboteur flipping a Direct Hit to destroy a ship would not actually destroy the ship.

Damage comes from 1. Being hit in combat 2. Effects of cards or abilities.

'Proton bomb effect' increases by itself the damage count of a ship because it deals a damage card. A face-up dealt card still counts as 1 damage regardless of its text, thus, the ship will suffer one damage, even if the critical hit text is harmless / has no effect on the ship.

The 'Saboteur effect' card only happens in a very specific situation, which is flipping a 'Direct hit' result. Even so, we can easily argue that since we are forced to resolve the card, the resolution forces a damage recount. Precisely because a damage recount is the only way of resolving a 'Direct hit' critical card. If you flip it up and do nothing, you are not resolving the card.

Saboteur has a very specific mechanics, that generally speaking, make it an exception from the normal rules. But what you cannot do (and you are trying) is to establish the 'normal rule' from the exception.

The other interesting question is:

What happens first, Vader's ship being destroyed or the enemy ship being damaged/destroyed?

I believe that both happen "at the same time" in a manner similar to having two ships with equal initiative destroy one another. So if Vader and his target were both the last ships on the board and this action destroys both of them, then the player with Initiative would win the game.

Unless its a tournament then its a drew according to the tournament rules

On the "Can you do it if you only have one left" question, I'm inclined to say no. The wording is, IMHO, pretty straightfoward: "suffer two damage to cause..." If you don't suffer two damage, you don't get to do the "to..." part. It's not "Suffer two damage. Cause one {Critical Hit} result." - the "Do X to Y" is clearly a prerequisite.

I dont know if this has been pointed out yet

When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship is equal to or greater than its hull value.

On the "Can you do it if you only have one left" question, I'm inclined to say no. The wording is, IMHO, pretty straightfoward: "suffer two damage to cause..." If you don't suffer two damage, you don't get to do the "to..." part. It's not "Suffer two damage. Cause one {Critical Hit} result." - the "Do X to Y" is clearly a prerequisite.

I dont know if this has been pointed out yet

When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship is equal to or greater than its hull value.

Well, that's precisely the nucleus of the debate.

Note that you are falling into a mind trap when you think that you can only suffer 1 damage because you only have "1 hull left". You don't have one hull left. Your hull value is still 5 (in the case of a lambda). Instead, and following the Lambda example, it happens to be that you have 4 damage cards, so one OR MORE damage cards will destroy your ship. You don't have to subtract hull points to determine if your ship is destroyed or not. You have to add damage cards.

Following the example you activate Vader when your lambda has 4 damage cards and no shield tokens, so you receive 2 damage cards. You cause your opponent to suffer one critical hit. You check your number of damage cards, which is 6. This number exceeds your hull value 5, so you immediately destroy the ship.

That is my interpretation, of course. Read carefully Buhallin's posts above to get a feel on the other side of the discussion.

Easy one first: No, Vader will not remove a Stealth Device from either ship. Stealth is only removed on a hit, which is defined as having uncanceled hit or crit results during Step 6.

On the "Can you do it if you only have one left" question, I'm inclined to say no. The wording is, IMHO, pretty straightfoward: "suffer two damage to cause..." If you don't suffer two damage, you don't get to do the "to..." part. It's not "Suffer two damage. Cause one {Critical Hit} result." - the "Do X to Y" is clearly a prerequisite. Since a ship is removed immediately upon having damage = hull, it couldn't suffer the two damage, because it would be removed after suffering the first. So if you had two hull left, you'd destroy yourself in the process but Vader would inflict his damage. But with one, you can't complete the process.

IMHO, this is exactly the same as a missile. "Spend your target lock to perform..." If Vader's ability goes off even though the prerequisite wasn't met, the exact same argument could be made for "I declared the missile when I didn't have a target lock, but since I used it I still get to perform the action because failing the first part doesn't stop the second part."

That's my interpretation, but it may very well be incorrect, or at the very least may fall victim to the rash of "because I said so" rulings we're getting lately. Someone (don't remember who) said they asked one of the FFG guys about it at GenCon, and got a response that you could use Vader. <shrug> Take it for what it's worth.

The 2 damage you take is a cost and the more often i read the card the clearer it becomes that they are litterally a prerequisite to inflict the damage. If you can't pay them fully nothing happens except that your ship dies. It's like he says "Do X to get Y..."

But you can pay the cost. You can still suffer two damage, it just so happens that two damage is more than it will take to destroy your ship.

Here's another angle to consider. What if the ship Vader is on has suffered damage equal to its hull value minus two. Activating Vader's ability will still destroy the ship, so can he do it? Obviously yes. So what difference does it make if the ship has received one more damage card? It still suffers two damage, it is just destroyed after the first one.

That's correct, but under my interpretation, Vader gets to activate his ability both at '1 hull' and at '-16 hull', which makes suffering damage and activating abilities consistent in both ways.

At 1 hull because he receives 2 damage cards that places the at -1 hull.

And at -16 hull because he receives 2 damage cards that place him at -18 hull.

...

But what you cannot do (and you are trying) is to establish the 'normal rule' from the exception.

My interpretation is equally consistent: Vader in a Simultaneous Fire scenario would be able to suffer the damage to end up at -1 as easily as -18. You're simply cherrypicking your axis, and deciding mine is inconsistent because it doesn't match yours. Per my interpretation, if Vader can suffer the damage, he can use his ability. Yes, that means there will be some cases where he can use it, and some where he can't - just like, say, Jan, who can't use her ability if she's stressed. Sometimes, that's just the way it works.

I'm not trying to establish anything based on the exception. I'm just pointing out some oddity which happens if you do it the way you suggest, and it's actually kinda fun watching you make up rules to disprove it... But it's totally peripheral to the actual point.

There are no rules that limit the "check for destruction" process to a specific time. The rule is very straightforward: "When the number of damage cards dealt to a ship is equal to or greater than its hull value, the ship is immediately destroyed." That's it. It doesn't tell you when to check that, which makes it a general, universal rule.

Nobody in these discussions (and this is about the fifth time I've had this one) has provided ANY rules which specify a specific timing. It's been claimed - repeatedly - but has always relied on the idea that the "equal or greater than" rule implicitly supports it because otherwise the "greater than" could never happen. But that's not true, and I think I've shown that rather conclusively.

Now, do I think Proton Bomb and Saboteur both function perfectly normally under the "always on" interpretation, and get very screwy and/or rely on a lot of made-up handwaving under yours? Yeah, I do. But in no way are they central supportive facts to my point. Which is, again:

- Destruction check is an always on rule, which can trigger at any time

- Rules and abilities can trigger between damage cards being dealt

- The "suffer 2 damage to..." is a prerequisite, and if you don't suffer 2 damage, you don't get "...to..."

But you can pay the cost. You can still suffer two damage, it just so happens that two damage is more than it will take to destroy your ship.

Here's another angle to consider. What if the ship Vader is on has suffered damage equal to its hull value minus two. Activating Vader's ability will still destroy the ship, so can he do it? Obviously yes. So what difference does it make if the ship has received one more damage card? It still suffers two damage, it is just destroyed after the first one.

Being destroyed after the first one means the ship is out of play, and cannot suffer the second damage. So no, you cannot suffer 2 damage if you only have one hull remaining.