So I was thinking about this the past few days. I think the Discipline skill is GREAT for using force powers and I think it really relates well to the notion of using powers and the Discipline that Jedi seem to have. I think it encompasses the idea of the Light Side of the force very well, at least in the idea of how Jedi strive to be.

But... what about the Dark Side? I don't think the Dark Side uses Discipline at all. It's all emotion... anger and fear and hate and love. Passion and bursts of emotion. Dark Side users, such as Sith, nurture and feed upon these emotions in order to trigger and expand their Dark Side powers. At least how the Dark Side has been broadened in the EU, which is what I'm basing all of this on.

I know the Dark Side hasn't been covered much at all in the core rulebook, so this strictly relates to homebrew stuff. Has anyone used a different skill to trigger Dark Side powers, other than Discipline? I like that Discipline is a Willpower skill for Light Side force powers and again I think it fits well with what we know of Jedi. I think Dark Side would be more a Presence skill, maybe even Cunning?

Maybe skills such as Charm or Deception or Cool. I like that one skill is used to trigger Light Side powers, so it should be the same with Dark Side. Maybe create a custom skill to use Dark Side powers?

Any thoughts or ideas on this are appreciated. I've read through two homebrew force stuff and haven't seen this covered.

I think you got too caught up in the semantics and overlooked exactly what you needed.

It's all emotion... anger and fear and hate and love. Passion and bursts of emotion. Dark Side users, such as Sith, nurture and feed upon these emotions in order to trigger and expand their Dark Side powers.

When you only give Discipline a cursory glance, sure, it doesn't meet the criteria as it only discusses overcoming fear.

But when you look at what it resists, such as Leadership, Coercion, and Deception, it starts to make sense. Dark side use harnesses certain emotions, while the above skills alter those emotions. Think of Discipline more as an "Emotional Control" skill, and you can see how Sith can hone that anger and hatred for years until it becomes the weapon they need.

Also, Discipline as you are describing it sounds closer to what we had in WEG and not what we have here, as Force Skills, both Light AND Dark, only use the Force pool.

Besides, the way the Force is described and handled here in EotE seems a bit closer to what we see in some of the video games and the Potentium theory of the Force.

Just saying.

IMHO Discipline is also essential for Dark Siders, at least the non-minion effective ones. There is nobody more disciplined than Palpatine, and Dooku is pretty close. Dark Siders gain a momentary surge when they let go, but they always lose when they do so, it's a very repeated theme. The whole "release your hate and anger" is propaganda. It's how the Sith destabilize you so you get turned, not, ultimately, how you get power.

I think you got too caught up in the semantics and overlooked exactly what you needed.

It's all emotion... anger and fear and hate and love. Passion and bursts of emotion. Dark Side users, such as Sith, nurture and feed upon these emotions in order to trigger and expand their Dark Side powers.

When you only give Discipline a cursory glance, sure, it doesn't meet the criteria as it only discusses overcoming fear.

But when you look at what it resists, such as Leadership, Coercion, and Deception, it starts to make sense. Dark side use harnesses certain emotions, while the above skills alter those emotions. Think of Discipline more as an "Emotional Control" skill, and you can see how Sith can hone that anger and hatred for years until it becomes the weapon they need.

Also, Discipline as you are describing it sounds closer to what we had in WEG and not what we have here, as Force Skills, both Light AND Dark, only use the Force pool.

Besides, the way the Force is described and handled here in EotE seems a bit closer to what we see in some of the video games and the Potentium theory of the Force.

Just saying.

Nothing to add to this.

Don't know how the Force book is going to treat this, but I'd prefer to have shades of grey like Jolee Bindo in Knights of the Old Republic. I never really liked the idea that a Force user had to be a Buddhist monk, or he became a complete monster who eats puppies.

EoE is all about that middle ground anyway - a Force Sensitive Exile is a streetwise, self-taught survivor who hangs out with scoundrels and smugglers and does 'shadowruns' for thrills or money.

I'm hoping 'Force & Destiny' lives up to its title and is more than just the 'Jedi Handbook'.

I'm not suggesting the Force is divorced entirely from its spiritual side and just becomes 'kewl powerz', but I'm sure there's room for a more balanced approach.

Don't know how the Force book is going to treat this, but I'd prefer to have shades of grey like Jolee Bindo in Knights of the Old Republic. I never really liked the idea that a Force user had to be a Buddhist monk, or he became a complete monster who eats puppies.

Agreed, and I think that's what's going on in the rules already. You roll your force dice, and you *can* use those dark pips if you really need to, but there's a small price (flipping a DP) which could affect you and your party down the road. It's subtle, and there's no "dark side points" accumulation.

Forget about Space Monks -- that's just EU nonsense. The Jedi Knights were, as the name implies, an elite group: an aristocratic order composed of the galaxies finest men and women. Nobility, in every sense of the word.

Forget about Space Monks -- that's just EU nonsense. The Jedi Knights were, as the name implies, an elite group: an aristocratic order composed of the galaxies finest men and women. Nobility, in every sense of the word.

Sounds good to me. I'm strongly tempted to make them a third, separate faction when F&D comes out. Not automatically equate them with the Alliance.

'Return of the Jedi' will have a very different meaning...

Agreed, and I think that's what's going on in the rules already. You roll your force dice, and you *can* use those dark pips if you really need to, but there's a small price (flipping a DP) which could affect you and your party down the road. It's subtle, and there's no "dark side points" accumulation.

Well said. The rules I've read really seem to cover this well, and will be perfect for our force-sensitive runaway who self-identifies as a scoundrel rather than a Trappist monk.

Considering all the furore over 'no jedi' in EoE, I'm very pleased with how the game treats the Force.

Forget about Space Monks -- that's just EU nonsense. The Jedi Knights were, as the name implies, an elite group: an aristocratic order composed of the galaxies finest men and women. Nobility, in every sense of the word.

Actually, not to dissimilar from the actual Order of the Knights Templar. A band of highly-trained and disciplined warriors with monastic traits dedicated to protecting a group of people from another group that wanted to harm the first group simply for being there. Admittedly, that's not the whole deal with the Knights Templar (who wound up becoming the Medieval equivalent of bankers, which ultimately lead to their Order's demise), but the parallels are there.

As for the topic, I think Discipline is the right skill to use for Force-users, light or dark. Part of the Sith philosophy is not only to make use of their emotions, but to do so in a controlled expression of those emotions. Not Dooku's line to Anakin during their last battle in the start of Revenge of the Sith, about how Anakin has those dark emotions but doesn't know how to properly channel them (or so Dooku thought).

Right now, the one element we're missing in regards to the Force system is the long-term consequences of calling upon the dark side of the Force too often, and perhaps more importantly how to measure those long-term consequences. Every prior Star Wars RPG had what amounted to a "karma meter," with WEG's perhaps being the most unforgiving (two evil acts and a bad die roll meant your Force-user was now an NPC). Short-term effects are simple; suffer some Strain and flip a destiny point to convert those Dark Side points into usable Force Points, and that's really just a slap on the wrist when viewed in the long-term.

I've seen suggestions of incorporating an Obligation-like mechanic called "Corruption," though I personally don't care for it, especially when combined with other Obligations, or at least don't care for it based on the justifications given by other players to date.

I tried to address the "long-term consequences" issue from a more narrative viewpoint, with the end result being that if the PC was being evil enough (not necessarily a puppy-kicking jerk, but well and truly evil) they became a dark side Force-user, with the crossing point being determined by the GM as to when that occurred, though with suggestions on the sort of behavior that would make a Force-user PC a prime candidate for becoming a dark-side Force-user.

Considering all the furore over 'no jedi' in EoE, I'm very pleased with how the game treats the Force.

If nothing else, it makes for a welcome change of pace from d20's "Jedi are where it's all at" approach. I give Saga Edition credit for trying to change things and make the system less biased towards Force-users, but I think they were also hampered by the way the skill system in general worked in that game, particularly at low levels and where the Skill Focus feat was concerned (which was a problem all-around, just with Force-users making it blazing clear how much of a problem it was at low levels).

I think that unless a PC was engaging in deliberate atrocities, I'd personally leave the 'dark side' thing as a role-playing trait only, and leave it up to the player. I really like that approach in EoE.

There must be all kinds of force-traditions, and I dislike the idea of 'you fell in love, then shot a ganger in the cantina - so now you're an NPC who eats puppies'.

I'm in the boat that Discipline works for both sides. For light side it encompasses the ability to control emotion so that it doesn't control you. For dark side it is the ability to harness those emotions and use them to fuel your powers.

...I dislike the idea of 'you fell in love, then shot a ganger in the cantina - so now you're an NPC who eats puppies'.

Agreed; even the Anakin->Vader fall always struck me as contrived.

Then again, given that I have to actively strive to keep my players from becoming moustache twisting villains being nasty for the evulz, I'm think I'm beginning to see the reasoning behind the "GM takeover" rules. Doubtless to prevent player's more wicked inclinations from derailing the campaign.

Though if there's a place to explore the morally grey (and black) areas, the EotE seems the right place for it.

Actually, not to dissimilar from the actual Order of the Knights Templar.

Aye, it's a sort of chivalric fiction meets wuxia in the old west.

Donovan Morningfire, on 13 Sept 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

I've seen suggestions of incorporating an Obligation-like mechanic called "Corruption," though I personally don't care for it, especially when combined with other Obligations, or at least don't care for it based on the justifications given by other players to date.

I need to try something like this. Something like a Discipline test to resist the Corruption score increasing every time they resort to the dark side...difficulty of the test dependent upon some ratio of the existing corruption score and the character's willpower.

Not exactly sure how it would work though...like an Addiction to Evil?

Don't know how the Force book is going to treat this, but I'd prefer to have shades of grey like Jolee Bindo in Knights of the Old Republic. I never really liked the idea that a Force user had to be a Buddhist monk, or he became a complete monster who eats puppies.

EoE is all about that middle ground anyway - a Force Sensitive Exile is a streetwise, self-taught survivor who hangs out with scoundrels and smugglers and does 'shadowruns' for thrills or money.

I'm hoping 'Force & Destiny' lives up to its title and is more than just the 'Jedi Handbook'.

I'm not suggesting the Force is divorced entirely from its spiritual side and just becomes 'kewl powerz', but I'm sure there's room for a more balanced approach.

Agreed.

A little OT but... I also think that it's kind of silly the the Sith describe the Force as having a Light and Dark side, to them I would think it seems like it's just the Force. I can understand why the Jedi would as they want people to follow their brand of Force use and fear such power not tempered with compassion and so delineate it into a Light and Dark (Good & Evil) dichotomy. The Sith (or other "Dark Side" folks) seem to me to be more pragmatic when it comes to the Force. To them it's about a means to an end and having power for power's sake, to find the quickest most effective way to achieve a goal. Being ruthless and drawing on the power generated by strong emotions are not off limits for them, they could use compassion but they see it as a limit rather than a strength. It's not that they can't be compassionate when it suits their needs they just rarely feel it does. Evil to them is not always motivated by psycho/sociopathic tendencies (although I accept Sith that are this way can rise to great power), but it's more the desire to live without limits, and being ruthless enough to try.

I see the Sith as calling it the Dark Side just to piss the Jedi off because they can, like giving someone a nickname they hate...

I think you got too caught up in the semantics and overlooked exactly what you needed.

It's all emotion... anger and fear and hate and love. Passion and bursts of emotion. Dark Side users, such as Sith, nurture and feed upon these emotions in order to trigger and expand their Dark Side powers.

When you only give Discipline a cursory glance, sure, it doesn't meet the criteria as it only discusses overcoming fear.

But when you look at what it resists, such as Leadership, Coercion, and Deception, it starts to make sense. Dark side use harnesses certain emotions, while the above skills alter those emotions. Think of Discipline more as an "Emotional Control" skill, and you can see how Sith can hone that anger and hatred for years until it becomes the weapon they need.

Also, Discipline as you are describing it sounds closer to what we had in WEG and not what we have here, as Force Skills, both Light AND Dark, only use the Force pool.

Besides, the way the Force is described and handled here in EotE seems a bit closer to what we see in some of the video games and the Potentium theory of the Force.

Just saying.

Color me convinced.

A little OT but... I also think that it's kind of silly the the Sith describe the Force as having a Light and Dark side, to them I would think it seems like it's just the Force.

But they don't believe that, otherwise they'd just be Potentium followers. Whatever the "truth" actually is, it's pretty clear from all sources that Sith believe in the two sides, and that their challenge is to mold and shape the dark side to their will.