I don't know if it's just me, but those two skills seem to have some headaches involved. First off, what differentiates 'staying cool" from "staying disciplined"? Both seem to involve roughly similar effects after all. Judging by descriptions I suppose Cool covers "noticing under stress" while Discipline is "dealing with stress"; that seem right to folks?

Cool as an initiative thing for "preparation" also really does not work well in my opinion. Basically explorers, scoundrels, and doctors are the best at ambushing someone, while a trained soldier or (worse!) a sniping assassin, is much better off if they are not prepared for a fight! Right now the combat specialized careers would do well to never plan ahead.

But the social interactions are what really drive me a little bonkers. For one thing, nobody can have both Cool and Discipline as class skills without specializing out of career, which seems a bit strange. I suppose there's an element of "nobody can resist every approach" to that which is good, but which class is effectively more resistant to a particular social skill thanks to skill distribution of Cool/Discipline works out just plain screwy. Politicos, supposedly the most specialized for social skill use, are without out of career spending hopeless saps, easy to deceive or sweet-talk (unless they become doctors and become resistant to sweet talk for some reason). They can dish it out but have no innate resistance beyond one fairly late talent. Smuggler/Scoundrels may not be charmable, but they fall for lies quite well, while the Hired Gun cannot be tricked but melt to any sob story; this seems almost backwards to the traditional "crook with a heart of gold" and "foolish guards" stereotypes.

Anyway, am I over-concerned with how those skills work out in actual practice, or is there some tweak that could fix things? On the social skill front, I've considered whether you should be able to use the same skill to oppose a social check (i.e. Charm vs. Charm) like Negotiation currently; Cool and Discipline would still have somewhat of an edge since you could resist multiple social skills with one of them, but at least a liar would recognize his own. Failing that, I'd at least swap the "Knowledge: Core Worlds" skill in the Politico specialization for one of those two so the Politico can come up with some defense against non-Jedi mind tricks. The Cool initiative thing I'm unsure of how to deal with; it has issues as noted but it kind of nerfs Cool to remove that role and give nothing back. Maybe instead swap things so Vigilance works for prepared attacks and Cool for surprises; it would make sense that scoundrels and explorers are more prepared for things suddenly going wrong on them, while combat professionals are more dangerous with prep time. Or maybe choose either of those skills for initiative but which attribute you use depends on circumstance (i.e. Cunning with whichever skill for prepared strikes, Willpower + whatever for walking around the corner into a pack of bounty hunters)?

Personally I think the skill system works very well the way it is, and wouldn't change anything. Especially not since anyone can take additional specializations at very little (at least initially) cost. If players want all skills to be career skills they'll have to branch out and pay for additional specializations, and that's the way it's meant to be. Remember, skills aren't just assigned to careers from a balance standpoint, they're also there to provide background to the character. Colonists are people who came from the Core Worlds and moved to the Outer Rim, therefore they have Knowledge (Core Worlds) as a career skill. It's no coincidence.

You also say that you're worried these skills don't have enough uses. But at the same time you also consider taking away some of their uses by making social skills able to oppose other social skills. You're gimping the skills you're concerned about being too gimped in the first place.

And finally, remember that there will be two more core rule books coming out. Discipline in particular is going to get a lot more uses in the Force and Destiny book, and we don't know what else is going to be done with Cool. I'd be very careful about tampering with the skill system based on what we know so far.

P.S. As for the difference between Cool and Discipline, someone in another thread put it best: "Stormtroopers are disciplined. Han Solo is cool."

You do realize initiative is rolled as a group, right?

Like, that doctor with cool rolls aces and your combat bounty hunter who has no cool are calmly waiting for the bad guy to round the corner. Bad guy walks around the corner, combat starts, initiative is rolled. Cool is used because this fight just didn't happen "suddenly". The PC's in this case are expecting the combat. So you call for a cool roll, your doctor rolls aces and your bounty hunter does not. You roll for the bad guy and get in between. Your initiative order looks like this:

1. PC

2. Bad Guy

3. PC

That first entry of PC isn't the doctor. Sure he rolled it, but that doesn't mean it's him. The players each round get to decide who falls into which slot. Meaning after that initiative is rolled, that combat bad ass bounty hunter can totally go first.

Works the same way for fights that "suddenly" spring up. I actually like the the combat characters roll better initiative in this case. It signifies to me that the character is "ready for a fight, all the time". Thus, the definition of Vigilance. Where as setting up an ambush usually requires forethought and the ability to stay cool under the pressure of waiting.

Yeah, it is a little weird. There's a couple of skills that seem to overlap a bit. Vigilance and Perception come to mind.

However skill monkey described the perception/vigilance crossover very well. Perception is used to spot something that is already there, vigilance is used to determine, that, something is about to happen.

ie perception(in skill monkeys example) is used to tell you that the meaton the barbecue is burnt. Vigilance would be used to tell you that the meat is about to be burnt if you dont do something about it.

Exactly. Perception lets you spot the thugs drawing their blasters and getting ready to ambush you and possibly plan accordingly (maybe by getting a free maneuver or a bonus on your initiative check). Vigilance lets you react to those thugs ambushing you quickly (by rolling initiative.)

As for Cool and Discipline, think of Cool as the ability to keep your head in busy, hectic, or chaotic situations. Performing medical procedures in a fire fight, disarming a bomb that is counting down from ten, seeing through someone's attempts at distracting you with flirtation or flattery, and preparing to get the jump on someone real good. As such, it is based on Presence, since it is all about how you handle the world around you.

Discipline, on the other hand, is your personal wherewithal. Your resistance to horrifying, disturbing, or dangerous situations. When you roll against something that is scary, you should roll discipline. It is what you use to resist fear and fear tactics, like intimidation and torture. To not give up the location of the hidden rebel base, you'd be rolling Discipline, since it is less about you trying to lie to their face, and more about you trying to resist the pain and danger of torture and not giving in. Therefore, it is based on Willpower, since it is less about how you handle the world and more about how you handle your own force of will, not your force of personality.

Sometimes when a situation is tense, it's not easily perceived. I feel that vigilance could extend to that subtle unease that happens right before the muck hits the fan. On the surface a situation may seem normal if your not vigilant.

From our first games, I got the impression there were way too many skills that seemed to intrude on each other's space.

But I've decided against changing anything about that yet.

Most of the overlap seems to be between 'active' and 'passive' applications of the same skill set.

Vigilance is 'passive' awareness, you aren't actually searching for something, but you notice something.

Perception is 'active' awareness, you're actively searching for something and you find it.

Other areas of overlap seem to be split on the 'theory vs. practice' line.

For example, Knowledge (Underworld) vs. Streetwise.

Reading the skill descriptions closely can help get a feel for where these lines are drawn, but most of the time you'll be right based on weighing which skill's *name* feels more appropriate. (Or at least I seem to be.)

Could any GM share examples of Discipline/Cool checks he called for that were not to oppose social checks, nor against Fear, also not for gambling or steady aim for sharpshooter. Thx!

I call for a Cool check to remote detonate explosives "at the right time". So Mechanics is used to set the charges, but Cool is used to perfectly time the detonation.

Most of the overlap seems to be between 'active' and 'passive' applications of the same skill set.

Vigilance is 'passive' awareness, you aren't actually searching for something, but you notice something.

Perception is 'active' awareness, you're actively searching for something and you find it.

Other areas of overlap seem to be split on the 'theory vs. practice' line.

For example, Knowledge (Underworld) vs. Streetwise.

Reading the skill descriptions closely can help get a feel for where these lines are drawn, but most of the time you'll be right based on weighing which skill's *name* feels more appropriate. (Or at least I seem to be.)

True that.

But on top of the overlap between skills seems to be be very, very intentional. Nearly every skill based on one characterristic has an counter option based on another characteristics. The game creates this way the option to benefit from strong characteristics, you get the same results, but your approach to it is different.

Could any GM share examples of Discipline/Cool checks he called for that were not to oppose social checks, nor against Fear, also not for gambling or steady aim for sharpshooter. Thx!

Nonchalantly ambling by a bunch of stormies in a borrowed ISB uniform; just walking/riding/driving/flying casual. That requires some Cool.

Addicts always have to show Discipline to stay away from their vice.

In most situations it depends on the character's approach: Let's say you're trying and mixing with society at soirée. You can try and remember your lessons from etiquette class and show perfect manners (Education), or be smiling at everybody and a pleasant chat (Charm), or have a perfect justification for your social peculiarity (Deception), or be just the smart guy, that you are (Cool). I'm certain there are more.

I do approach Initiative the same way: Yes, Cool and Discipline are the usual suspects in most cases. But, setting up an ambush on Endor does justify Survival to me, on Nar Shaddaa it could be Streetwise. Chatting away merrily and suddenly drawing a blaster and shooting: Deception. Etc.

Could any GM share examples of Discipline/Cool checks he called for that were not to oppose social checks, nor against Fear, also not for gambling or steady aim for sharpshooter. Thx!

That's easy:

Think Blondie is rolling against his Ranged Light? Hell no, son. That's a cool roll.

A couple of the player characters in my F&D campaign had to make Cool checks to walk out of an enemy spaceship in an enemy camp disguised as said enemies.

A Pilot character in a swoop race had to make a competitive Cool check against another racer when they were hurtling neck by neck towards an opening precisely one swoop wide.

A character had to make a Cool check to disarm a ticking bomb.

And then there's the Cool checks used in a Showdown, as outlined in Fly Casual.

Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head that happened at my table.

Also keep in mind that anyone can pick up any skill (well, maybe not Lightsaber ) at any time. So, maybe your Soldier doesn’t have Cool as a class skill, but the player decides that his character is a really cool guy no matter what, and invests some XP in bringing up that skill.

No problem.

It’s not like you’re limited to buying only those skills that are class skills for you. It’s just that the class skills are a little cheaper to buy than the non-class skills.

1. PC

2. Bad Guy

3. PC

That first entry of PC isn't the doctor. Sure he rolled it, but that doesn't mean it's him. The players each round get to decide who falls into which slot. Meaning after that initiative is rolled, that combat bad ass bounty hunter can totally go first.

I think my favorite thing about this game's initiative is that, in my opinion, it's a good thing to have one guy roll kinda lousy. Why? If you control both the top and the bottom of the initiative list, you can set up combos where you get to act twice in a row. That can be huge. Let's say you have a Marauder or Jedi, hiding behind cover at Long range from a group of Stormtroopers shooting at the group. In most initiative systems, you would be a sitting duck for one round if you tried to close with them. However, in this case, you opt to go last in the round, spend both maneuvers to move from Long to Medium range. Next turn, you go first , suffer 2 strain for an extra maneuver, so you move from Medium to Short, then from Short to Engaged, then you use your Action to open that can of beatdown upon them. If you're a well-built Ataru Striker, you're basically a minion-killing buzzsaw.

Could any GM share examples of Discipline/Cool checks he called for that were not to oppose social checks, nor against Fear, also not for gambling or steady aim for sharpshooter. Thx!

That's easy:

Think Blondie is rolling against his Ranged Light? Hell no, son. That's a cool roll.

I love this scene, I was there once, the graves were still there and this year they re-vitalized the area to look like 50 years ago.

Thank you all for sharing!

"You see, in this world, there are two kinds of people, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig."

Boba Fett to Greedo