... and transitioning to the main EoE game... Wanted to share some thoughts and invite yours.

The players and myself were impressed by finishing a WHFRP campaign and wanted to try the new FFG SW game. We all have fond memories of the original films, mostly disliked the prequels, and haven't bothered with the EU stuff that's happened since. (It all seems like bad fan-fiction to me, I actually agree with Lucas that we should have just left those characters there, I'm simply not interested in 'Son of Star Wars', sorry...)

So I got the Beginner game and everything else, very impressed as always with the quality of FFG. Ran through the beginner scenario and sequel, with a view to redoing it eventually with our own characters.

Some players were sceptical about the dice - not everyone liked the WHFRP system - but we soon found ourselves enjoying this aspect. The 'narrative, make it up as we go along' style was perfect for a bunch of gamers in our 40's.

It was a bit of a mixed bag, and we had plenty of discussions about 'did we enjoy it?' and 'did it feel like Star Wars?'

I wasn't fussed with having a Millenium Falcon expy, but the players players loved the 'Krayt Fang' and happily redesigned the interior, so it looks like we're keeping it for the main game. I would have preferred something original, but I'm not arguing if they are already invested in the thing.

We broadly enjoyed things, but there were three main complaints. One, Obligation - this would only come up when we make the transition obviously, but so far every single player likes the idea, but HATES the way it's implemented. But that's a story for another post, later.

Two, the players felt the starting characters were very 'scrubby'. They are far from power-gamers, and actually liked the 'fringer' concept and the lack of focus on Jedi. But they found the starting characters very underwhelming. Looking at the skills, there's over 30 and yet you only start with 6. Too many skills seem to be duplicated - Cool/Discipline, Perception/Vigilance, etc. We've tried generating some new characters, and they all feel kind of similar to be honest. Nobody really seems to have their 'unique selling point' or signature skills. I'd like for everyone to have at least one thing that lets them feel special and unique.

After some discussion, I'm going to let them play somewhat more experienced characters, Solo types who have been around for a bit and started earning a reputation. One of the players said he just didn't want to play some greenhorn like Greedo, and I found it hard to argue with that. On the plus side, it seems you gain experience quite quickly in EoE, but I have no problem with them being 'Prime Runners' as the new Shadowrun rules have it. The PCs are the heroes of this campaign, not the supporting or incidental cast, so that seems to fit.

Thirdly, combat seemed very 'grindy'. Some of that was our inexperience, but some of it was the old 4E D&D problem of everything having waaaay too much armour or hit points. The fight with the Hutt in the final session just felt wrong - it's a Hutt, not a blast door, and having a wookie whacking it with an axe and causing no damage felt silly. One player pointed out that Leia (who is Brawn 3, tops) would never have been able to strangle Jabba if he had Soak 10.

I've been playing with the idea of making Minions 1-wound creatures, as in other games. The idea of having to hit a lowly stormtrooper for 3 rounds with a blaster to drop him seems very 'un-StarWars-y'. We watched the movies again and I don't think one ever survives being hit. That would speed up combat and give more of a movie feel, maybe. They'd still have to be wary of a dozen or so troopers obviously, especially acting in tandem.

I noticed the EoE book has a way of killing off spare minions at the end of a battle, and I can see myself using this a LOT.

Opinion was divided on whether the whole think 'felt like Star Wars'. The players universally disliked the idea of having to wear armour when for the most part, the leads in the films are just in normal clothing. They were also expecting to gun down minions fairly easily, and to be able to damage the Hutt. I'm looking of ways to keep things fast-moving and preserving the 'feel' of the films, rather than getting bogged down in grindy combats with neophyte characters.

Anyway, I've said more than I intended anyway - thanks for listening and any advice you might offer!

Some players were sceptical about the dice - not everyone liked the WHFRP system - but we soon found ourselves enjoying this aspect. The 'narrative, make it up as we go along' style was perfect for a bunch of gamers in our 40's.

Yeah, I find that pretty much everyone digs the dice once they actually try them out. It helps break the mold of the normal d20-type games so many of us have been playing for years and years (sometimes ad nauseam).

I wasn't fussed with having a Millenium Falcon expy, but the players players loved the 'Krayt Fang' and happily redesigned the interior, so it looks like we're keeping it for the main game. I would have preferred something original, but I'm not arguing if they are already invested in the thing.

To be fair, I'd hardly call the Krayt Fan a Millennium Falcon expy. The YT-1300 freighter has been a core part of Star Wars gaming since the early 90s, and even in-universe it's noted as being one of the most commonly seen freighters around. And hey, like you said, your players are enjoying it.

Two, the players felt the starting characters were very 'scrubby'. They are far from power-gamers, and actually liked the 'fringer' concept and the lack of focus on Jedi. But they found the starting characters very underwhelming. Looking at the skills, there's over 30 and yet you only start with 6. Too many skills seem to be duplicated - Cool/Discipline, Perception/Vigilance, etc. We've tried generating some new characters, and they all feel kind of similar to be honest. Nobody really seems to have their 'unique selling point' or signature skills. I'd like for everyone to have at least one thing that lets them feel special and unique.

The difference between Cool/Discipline and Perception/Vigilance is admittedly one that isn't immediately obvious, but they're far from being duplicates. To help sort of sell the difference between them: Cool is your ability to keep a straight face and act like nothing is wrong (and to act without hesitating). Discipline is much more internal, your sense of actual self-control and not just your outer image. (As it was said by one of the devs: "A Jedi Knight has Discipline; Han Solo has Cool.")

Perception is about noticing details and spotting things that are there to be seen. Vigilance is about being ready for things that aren't actually even THERE yet, but which soon will be, and giving you a chance to act once they are.

Also, don't worry too much about starting characters not being able to dip into every skill right away. Buying low-levels ranks in skills is actually VERY cheap in this system, and moreover, having decent characteristic values isn't quite the same as it might work in other systems. Having a Prescence of 4 but no ranks in Negotiation still makes you a VERY good negotiator by this system's rules. Likewise, a character with no ranks in any combat skills but an Agility of 3 is still more than a passable shot with a blaster.

Thirdly, combat seemed very 'grindy'. Some of that was our inexperience, but some of it was the old 4E D&D problem of everything having waaaay too much armour or hit points. The fight with the Hutt in the final session just felt wrong - it's a Hutt, not a blast door, and having a wookie whacking it with an axe and causing no damage felt silly. One player pointed out that Leia (who is Brawn 3, tops) would never have been able to strangle Jabba if he had Soak 10.

It's strange to me that you find combat grindy in this system. In my experience, it moves way more quickly and fluidly than combat in just about any other system I've played in years. Rolling Advantage and Triumph can really make short work of otherwise nasty opponents.

Given the Jabba situation: that's clearly an instance where the narrative needs to trump the rules, which this system endorses. I don't think the intent there would be for the players and GM to dice it out as Leia tried to choke wound after wound out of Jabba. (Remember, with enough Advantage and Triumph, you can pack on Critical Injury after Critical Injury, which would take out even a Hutt WELL before you exceeded its Wound Threshold).

I've been playing with the idea of making Minions 1-wound creatures, as in other games. The idea of having to hit a lowly stormtrooper for 3 rounds with a blaster to drop him seems very 'un-StarWars-y'. We watched the movies again and I don't think one ever survives being hit. That would speed up combat and give more of a movie feel, maybe. They'd still have to be wary of a dozen or so troopers obviously, especially acting in tandem.

Narratively speaking, you don't need to rule that a successful attack roll with a blaster is a direct hit. That can easily be a shot that wings someone in the shoulder, or which very nearly comes close to hitting someone, forcing them to duck away at just the last moment.

A decent attack roll with a heavy blaster pistol or a blaster rifle probably WILL drop most minions as-is, and a Triumph on even a light blaster pistol will still drop a minion outright as per the minion rules, so I don't think you need to 'double-up' on giving them only 1 hit, because that really, really cheapens the value of having ranks in combat skills.

Stormtroopers are a little tougher than you might expect because the game wants them to be a credible threat; all jokes about how useless they are in the movies notwithstanding, they ARE supposed to be the Empire's elite, and your average smuggler shouldn't feel invincible going toe-to-toe with a dozen of them. That being said, again, a single Triumph or even three Advantage will still waste one outright, so they're hardly overpowered. Again, I'd caution against making all minions 'one-hit, one-kill,' because that's really going to throw the Advantage/Triumph axis out of whack when rolling combat skill checks.

Opinion was divided on whether the whole think 'felt like Star Wars'. The players universally disliked the idea of having to wear armour when for the most part, the leads in the films are just in normal clothing.

The thing is, if you read the descriptions of the armor types in the rulebook, you'll see that, by this system's logic, what Han Solo wears in the movies IS armor--the vest he wears has energy-absorbing fibers or super lightweight defensive plates inside it. Likewise, even padded armor is very much just the sort of thing you see the typical Rebel trooper wearing. It's not like the game imagines you're walking around in a full suit of stromtrooper-like armor just to get by.

All told, it sounds like you're enjoying the game, though, which is awesome! Before making any sweeping rules changes though, I'd really recommend trying to run it a while as-is with the main core rules, since a lot of the conceits of the Beginner Game are gone, and things will probably 'click' better.

Thirdly, combat seemed very 'grindy'. Some of that was our inexperience, but some of it was the old 4E D&D problem of everything having waaaay too much armour or hit points.

Odd, most people's experience is the opposite...Hutt aside. Plus, combat is much more dynamic what with passing boost dice and moving around. It doesn't sound to me like you're using the advantages/triumphs, etc properly. Note that if the GM rolls Threats in combat, the players can use those to cause Strain on their opponent. This takes down minions pretty quickly because Strain = Wounds for minions. If you only give them 1HP, well, I don't think you'll want them dropping that fast.

Thanks for engaging!

To be fair, I'd hardly call the Krayt Fan a Millennium Falcon expy. The YT-1300 freighter has been a core part of Star Wars gaming since the early 90s, and even in-universe it's noted as being one of the most commonly seen freighters around. And hey, like you said, your players are enjoying it.

Yes, the floor plan really sold them. They quickly cleaned it up and divided it into a 'girls room' and a 'boys room'. The gals threw out the wampa rug so the boys kept it. The guys like to smoke, play cards, and brag about their prowess, and have the SW equivalent of 'Hustler' lying around. The girls prettified their room and spend their off duty times chatting about Bespin fashions. Though the female Rodian likes her card games and tends to hang out with the guys All that just from the floor plan!

The difference between Cool/Discipline and Perception/Vigilance is admittedly one that isn't immediately obvious, but they're far from being duplicates. To help sort of sell the difference between them: Cool is your ability to keep a straight face and act like nothing is wrong (and to act without hesitating). Discipline is much more internal, your sense of actual self-control and not just your outer image. (As it was said by one of the devs: "A Jedi Knight has Discipline; Han Solo has Cool.")

I see your point, and I'm not going to change any of the skills at all. It's just that there's a LOT the players need and they only have so many points to spend. If they want to be like Mr Solo then they need Cool, for instance, as you say.

It's strange to me that you find combat grindy in this system. In my experience, it moves way more quickly and fluidly than combat in just about any other system I've played in years. Rolling Advantage and Triumph can really make short work of otherwise nasty opponents.

We were very unlucky - we went through several rounds with terrible rolls. But the smuggler character felt unhappy when she had to shoot a stormtrooper multiple times to drop it - it brought back horrible memories of 4E with its kobolds and goblins with 100 hitpoints. Luke got through the Rancor in less time than it took to drop that minion.

There felt a bit of a disconnect to me - the game assumes you're an unarmoured Han Solo type with a pistol, and yet the maths need you be an armoured tank with heavy weapons if you're going to get through the combats. Maybe we need to add a combat character?

Given the Jabba situation: that's clearly an instance where the narrative needs to trump the rules, which this system endorses. I don't think the intent there would be for the players and GM to dice it out as Leia tried to choke wound after wound out of Jabba. (Remember, with enough Advantage and Triumph, you can pack on Critical Injury after Critical Injury, which would take out even a Hutt WELL before you exceeded its Wound Threshold).

Yes, I'm guessing we'd have to narrative that. Or get insanely lucky. But still, 10 soak seems too much to me. It shouldn't be able to laugh off a lightsabre (not that we have one or even want one).

Narratively speaking, you don't need to rule that a successful attack roll with a blaster is a direct hit. That can easily be a shot that wings someone in the shoulder, or which very nearly comes close to hitting someone, forcing them to duck away at just the last moment.

A decent attack roll with a heavy blaster pistol or a blaster rifle probably WILL drop most minions as-is, and a Triumph on even a light blaster pistol will still drop a minion outright as per the minion rules, so I don't think you need to 'double-up' on giving them only 1 hit, because that really, really cheapens the value of having ranks in combat skills.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do here, but I really want the minion fights to 'feel like Star Wars' and be quick, flowing really fast. Let the fights with the Rivals and Nemeses feel more involved. Maybe they just need higher stats to get those criticals, which is what the players were complaining about.

Stormtroopers are a little tougher than you might expect because the game wants them to be a credible threat; all jokes about how useless they are in the movies notwithstanding, they ARE supposed to be the Empire's elite, and your average smuggler shouldn't feel invincible going toe-to-toe with a dozen of them. That being said, again, a single Triumph or even three Advantage will still waste one outright, so they're hardly overpowered. Again, I'd caution against making all minions 'one-hit, one-kill,' because that's really going to throw the Advantage/Triumph axis out of whack when rolling combat skill checks.

Again, the players want it to 'feel like the movies', and having tough Stormtroopers ruined that for them. I wouldn't mind a savvy, veteran Rival seargent or something giving them fits, but they expected to blow these guys away with relative ease, because that's what happens in the games and the films and the comics. (I mean, these are the same guys who got beaten up by _ewoks_!!!)

The thing is, if you read the descriptions of the armor types in the rulebook, you'll see that, by this system's logic, what Han Solo wears in the movies IS armor--the vest he wears has energy-absorbing fibers or super lightweight defensive plates inside it. Likewise, even padded armor is very much just the sort of thing you see the typical Rebel trooper wearing. It's not like the game imagines you're walking around in a full suit of stromtrooper-like armor just to get by.

But pretty much none of the human characters in the films - Han, Luke, Lando, Leia, etc - really look armoured, aside from the Hoth parts, and that seems to be down to environmental reasons than anything.

I'm tempted to do as you suggest, and have their smuggler's leathers, Bespin gown and wookiee harness made of some fancy protective fabric so we can keep the visual appearance of the films without getting vaporised by stormtroopers...

I'd be happy having less firefights personally, but some degree of combat seems inherent in the Star Wars feel.

All told, it sounds like you're enjoying the game, though, which is awesome! Before making any sweeping rules changes though, I'd really recommend trying to run it a while as-is with the main core rules, since a lot of the conceits of the Beginner Game are gone, and things will probably 'click' better.

Yes, all the players seem very committed to it. We've worked up a very interesting alternate universe set-up where the PCs are the movie's heroes, and all of us are very much psyched for it, even those who were initially doubters. And FFG is one of the few companies I'd trust with this licence.

I'm just trying to find ways to make the game meet their expectations really. They are all mature gamers and understand that even in the movies, heroes can fail.

But I'd rather not hear 'all aboard the FailBoat' again, even in jest.

Thanks for your advice, I really appreciate it.

Odd, most people's experience is the opposite...Hutt aside. Plus, combat is much more dynamic what with passing boost dice and moving around. It doesn't sound to me like you're using the advantages/triumphs, etc properly. Note that if the GM rolls Threats in combat, the players can use those to cause Strain on their opponent. This takes down minions pretty quickly because Strain = Wounds for minions. If you only give them 1HP, well, I don't think you'll want them dropping that fast.

Yes, I've noted a few things I missed in our earlier sessions. The system is taking a bit of getting used to, but we like the concept. Good advice.

My goal is to make it 'feel like Star Wars' if that makes sense. Which probably means different things to different people, I agree, but my players didn't like having to shoot the same stormtrooper for 3-4 rounds to drop it.

Odd, most people's experience is the opposite...Hutt aside. Plus, combat is much more dynamic what with passing boost dice and moving around. It doesn't sound to me like you're using the advantages/triumphs, etc properly. Note that if the GM rolls Threats in combat, the players can use those to cause Strain on their opponent. This takes down minions pretty quickly because Strain = Wounds for minions. If you only give them 1HP, well, I don't think you'll want them dropping that fast.

Yes, I've noted a few things I missed in our earlier sessions. The system is taking a bit of getting used to, but we like the concept. Good advice.

My goal is to make it 'feel like Star Wars' if that makes sense. Which probably means different things to different people, I agree, but my players didn't like having to shoot the same stormtrooper for 3-4 rounds to drop it.

Alright so its time for me to stop lurking and actually say something here.

Mostly because this kind of thought is what grinds my gears.

Look, the Stormtroopers aren't push overs. They aren't. They never have been. I have examples, both in the books (EU) which you said you don't care for (sad really, the Thrawn Trilogy is perhaps the greatest three books ever written), and in the movies on how they are not.

What does Old Ben say to Luke after the sandcrawler attack?

"And these blast points, too accurate for sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

How about the clones during the clone wars? I dare say those guys weren't pushovers. They were the model the "modern" stormtrooper was built on! If they were 1 hit, 1 hp pushovers as you say, there is no way Order 66 gets executed to perfection.

And what about the 501st? They wiped out the Temple with Darth Vader's help.

More to the point, how do we know Luke, Leia and Han killed every stormtrooper with every shot? The answer is, we don't. How many of those troopers "died" from one shot? They could have just fallen down, injured. A guy doesn't fall down dead after he takes a bolt to the shoulder. He's injured. He might be out of the fight temporarily, but given enough time or a medic, he could be right back in it. If everyone died who took a blaster bolt to the shoulder, Leia would be pushing up daisies before she could have assumed command of the New Republic.

Stormtroopers aren't the laughing stocks of the military. Those are men and women who trained to the equivalent of the US Marine Corps or Army. They aren't Seals, but I'm sure there are some troopers who are just as good as US Seals in their own way.

If your players don't like shooting a trooper 3 or 4 times, tell them to A be better shots, B get bigger weapons, or C run away. Just because the players are heroes does not make them invincible nor gods of the battlefield.

So you can make it Star Wars. The setting alone makes it Star Wars. But give me grit, give me dirt, give me difficulty. I don't need my hand held. If nothing else, this setting is the opposite of hand holding. Its a rough and tumble place. It should feel like it.

"Ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid"

What does Old Ben say to Luke after the sandcrawler attack?

"And these blast points, too accurate for sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

With all due respect... that's one of the most ironic lines in all SW fandom, considering what follows... Maybe that's just me.

But hey, if your game works well with tough 'troopers, go for it. To each his own. I'm kind of thinking aloud about what my players disliked and how I could change things to suit our vision. The grindy fights were one of the things that didn't thematically feel like the films. I suppose my players are just conditioned to think Stormtroopers are the ultimate 'bad guy minions who can't shoot straight worth a ****' goons. That seem to be a feature in quite a few films of the era, like Indiana Jones. Them putting up a fight defied their expectations, and I see where they're coming from. We see films where Aragorn and Legolas slaughter hundreds of orcs without breaking sweat. It's kind of expected. That said, I can see how EoE might consider them otherwise.

(We're playing in a world where Order 66 didn't quite happen the same way, if that helps. Palpatine and Lil' Annie were definitely killed, Tarkin is Emperor of a Sith-free Empire with the Death Star still around, as without Luke, the first attack on it failed. Our Force Sensitive Exile wouldn't know the difference between an X-Wing and an X-Box, so nobody is going to step up to that particular plate Nobody is sure which Jedi survived and who didn't; Yoda and Obi-Wan might be toast, others might have survived. That's part of the mystery, the players know we won't be following the movies in plot, but in style and theme.)

Look, the Stormtroopers aren't push overs. They aren't. They never have been. I have examples, both in the books (EU) which you said you don't care for (sad really, the Thrawn Trilogy is perhaps the greatest three books ever written), and in the movies on how they are not.

Exactly - every time I hear "Stormtroopers suck" I roll my eyes. Not counting the total curb-stomping of Order 66 and owning the droids on Geonosis, lets look at the times we see them in action:

* Taking the Blockade Runner

Are the stormtroopers trying to kill the enemy? Yes. Are they successful? Yes - despite having to assault a fortified position through a choke point, the Stormtroopers take very few losses and route the enemy.

* Assaulting the sandcrawler

Again, the Stormtroopers are trying to kill the enemy, and Kenobi comments that they were accurate and precise

* The Detention Block

Are the stormtroopers trying to kill the enemy? Yes. During the initial engagment in the dentention block, the Stormtroopers and officers were most likely tryign to kill Han and Luke, but the element of suprise (plus 8 feet of rampaging wookiee) carried the day for the rebels.

* Further engagements on the Death Star

From the Detention Block battle on, the stormtroopers are specificly ordered NOT to kill the enemy. They are are under orders to allow the Rebels to escape while making enough of a show to make it look good.

*The Assault on Hoth

The Imperials are trying to kill the enemy and overrun Echo Base with relative ease.

* Escape from Cloud City

Are the Imperials trying to kill the enemy? No - they are under orders to divert Luke into the Carbon Freezing Chamber and keep him away from Leia and Chewie.

* The Battle of Endor

Are the stormtroopers trying to kill the enemy? Yes - and they manage to hit two main characters at fairly long range. Despite being ambushed, the Stortroopers force the Ewoks back into the woods. Its only when the stormtroopers break up into smaller groups to pursue the Ewoks does the tide of battle turn. So if anything, it was poor tactics than lack of combat skill that was the downfall of the Imperials on Endor.

So no, Stormtroopers do not suck.

*The Assault on Hoth

The Imperials are trying to kill the enemy and overrun Echo Base with relative ease.

OMG this. Not to mention it was an asskicking from start to finish, but it was (still is) the one of the greatest scenes in the entire six movies. Sure the rebels were trying to flee, making the asskicking look even more complete then it really was. But dem dirty rebels were running from the might of the Empire for a reason. And it wasn't cause the Stormtroopers suck.

Maelora you must do what you feel is right of course. But just look over that list of stuff and really think. Have your players go over it too. They aren't as pushover as you think. And men and women who go though all the time and training that troopers would conceivably have to go though aren't going to frightened by your average World Series of Poker player when it comes to a fire fight. You may just be doing a disservice to your game by allowing the players to think they are invincible.

I mean, as a game master, when your players are charging some troopers around a corner only to be greeted by an entire platoon of troops, the worst thing they can say next is "Awesome, a hundred troopers. How many shots do I have? We can take 'em".

Really didn't mean to insult all the stormtrooper fans, guys...

I kinda meant 'minions' in general. That was one of the few concepts we actually liked about 4E. We were aiming for a cinematic game where large combats could be handled fairly quickly and we didn't have to track the hit points of every last opponent. They've played things like 'Dark Forces'. They think they should be one-shotting these kind of foes.

One of the things we found jarring was that the fights felt overlong. It didn't capture the feel of action films like the SW movies, or Indiana Jones, or the LotR films, where the characters blow through a bunch of mooks with ease.

And no, nobody should be invincible... I just felt as if there should be a change of tone when they run up against a Rival or Nemesis. As in 'things just got serious, we're shooting him but he's not going down'. Kind of like the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark when Indy blasts his way through loads of enemies, then runs into that big mechanic who gives him all kinds of trouble.

Combat can drag on, but destiny can impact it at a critical spot. I feel like blaster duels from behind cover should probably take a long time. Actually when I think of Star Wars I think of longish blaster duels, empire strikes back by the bunker with Han surrounded, luke and leia when he swings over the bridge thing...Han when they are leaving tatooine...Han and Luke rescuing Leia...those all drag out...dont they? Just some thoughts.

We were aiming for a cinematic game where large combats could be handled fairly quickly and we didn't have to track the hit points of every last opponent.

I daresay when the characters are more experienced they will be dishing out a lot more damage and hitting more often. I'm assuming you're starting with the equivalent of L1 characters, which unless you're playing some kind of super-hero game, aren't going to be able to take on stormtroopers with ease. (And actually, I'm pretty pleased that stormtroopers will always be somewhat of a threat, even if it's only passing advantages on to their nemesis leader.) Maybe instead they should have been faced with an angry mob.

But two other things strike me: first is the assumption by the players that they can stand and fight. If they're thinking of the movies, there's not a single instance to go on. Instead they run away, a lot! Or they sneak or bypass or otherwise do anything but a full on frontal assault. So perhaps player expectations are askew.

Second, IMHO it's up to the GM to keep things moving. If that stormtrooper is keeping people pinned down, there should be another solution available. If the melee is static for more than a couple of turns, make something available, cause change, create havoc. Let the players "notice" something with their advantages, like that stormtrooper is taking cover next to a cliff...maybe a shot to the cliff will collapse it. The players can help, by learning how to use those advantages to ask for the right things.

You said you were looking for cinematic system. But a system and those funky dice can only do so much. "Cinematic come from within."

Really didn't mean to insult all the stormtrooper fans, guys...

I kinda meant 'minions' in general. That was one of the few concepts we actually liked about 4E. We were aiming for a cinematic game where large combats could be handled fairly quickly and we didn't have to track the hit points of every last opponent. They've played things like 'Dark Forces'. They think they should be one-shotting these kind of foes.

One of the things we found jarring was that the fights felt overlong. It didn't capture the feel of action films like the SW movies, or Indiana Jones, or the LotR films, where the characters blow through a bunch of mooks with ease.

And no, nobody should be invincible... I just felt as if there should be a change of tone when they run up against a Rival or Nemesis. As in 'things just got serious, we're shooting him but he's not going down'. Kind of like the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark when Indy blasts his way through loads of enemies, then runs into that big mechanic who gives him all kinds of trouble.

I'm trying not to take offense, really

Minions in 4 ed were something I didn't like. While some made sense (little bugs) some minions were large, hulking creatures that could hit like trucks. But if they broke a nail or stubbed a toe, down they went. It's really not like they sped up combat anyway. It still takes five players 5 rounds of grueling long 4ed combat to get through 25 minions, unless you happen to have a wizard or an aoe ability or three. For 25 hps!

I like how this system handles minions. Grouped up, they are more dangerous then when alone. Which makes a certain amount of sense. Additionally, since they share HP pool, if I hit a minion group for good damage (ie, I crit), I have a chance to take more then one down. If I crit a 4ed minion.... awesome waste of a 20 that was. Oh, if I could only count how many times I've wasted nat 20s on stupid 4ed minions.

To your point about Indy. Indy didn't blast that mechanic because he couldn't get his gun. Make no mistake, that guy would have gone down to a bullet just like market sword swinging guy.

Idk, the one point in the A New Hope where you see stormtroopers going down in one shot, most of the people are using Blaster Rifles pilfered off the stormtroopers they had knocked out.

And a blaster rifle on a hit has a minimum damage of 10 (9+1 success), which means a 5 Soak, 5 Wound stormtrooper would go down with every hit at the LEAST. A good shot, either with lots of success, or with three advantage for a crit, could take out more.

Idk, the one point in the A New Hope where you see stormtroopers going down in one shot, most of the people are using Blaster Rifles pilfered off the stormtroopers they had knocked out.And a blaster rifle on a hit has a minimum damage of 10 (9+1 success), which means a 5 Soak, 5 Wound stormtrooper would go down with every hit at the LEAST. A good shot, either with lots of success, or with three advantage for a crit, could take out more.

I was thinking the same thing. Why aren't they going down in one hit already?

I think the majority of your issue is the poor rolls you said everyone was having. That is the cause more than it is a tough stormtrooper. As mentioned above, 1 normal hit from a blaster rifle will drop one, that is maybe 2 hits from a pistol. So, stormtroopers are where they need to be in toughness, it is just due to poor rolls.

Also, I am assuming you were using a minion group. This could have also been the perceived "single" stormtrooper when in fact it is a group of X amount of troopers. You should stress that and also (if using miniatures or maps) place a figure for each trooper and remove one as they drop from the minion group. They can also be spread out as well but still function as a group.

With all due respect... that's one of the most ironic lines in all SW fandom, considering what follows... Maybe that's just me.

But hey, if your game works well with tough 'troopers, go for it. To each his own. I'm kind of thinking aloud about what my players disliked and how I could change things to suit our vision. The grindy fights were one of the things that didn't thematically feel like the films. I suppose my players are just conditioned to think Stormtroopers are the ultimate 'bad guy minions who can't shoot straight worth a ****' goons. That seem to be a feature in quite a few films of the era, like Indiana Jones. Them putting up a fight defied their expectations, and I see where they're coming from. We see films where Aragorn and Legolas slaughter hundreds of orcs without breaking sweat. It's kind of expected. That said, I can see how EoE might consider them otherwise.

As others have said, blaster rifles versus blaster pistols seems to make the difference... what Emperor Norton describes about +1 damage isn't that clear in the book itself, unfortunately, but the point is that stormies have exactly enough Wound Threshold to be dropped in one blaster carbine or rifle hit even after their armor's soak, and a blaster pistol should only be two hits. Moreover, a Minion that suffers a Critical Injury is immediately incapacitated -- so even if your players only have blaster pistols, a hit with enough Advantages on the attack roll to invoke a critical hit can one-shot a stormtrooper. (I admittedly recognize that your players may not be pleased with the implication that the movie cast were continually getting high roll results.)

Also be aware that in EotE RAW, an individual stormtrooper has no skill ranks at all, they only have them when there's more than one stormtrooper with which to form a group (which only gets skill ranks in certain skills -- as per the stat block listing -- and only a number of ranks per skill equal to group size - 1). A Rival's already going to feel different in having their own Skills, to say nothing of having "comparable to PC" Wound Threshold as well, maybe a Talent and/or Ability, and maybe even a Strain Threshold, which as per the book would essentially make them "weaker Nemeses".

Oh, and letting your players play more experienced characters is a solution that meshes with "the movies"; I'd suggest that Luke and Leia may have had some experience under their belts before Episode IV, but even if you treat them as starting PCs, then in contrast Han and Chewie were established pros.

I also see that you've received and responded to other members on armor, but I'll add there's only two armors (not counting personal deflector shielding) that add to your Defense... but if you don't have one of those two, then taking cover effectively does the same thing in the sense of "harder to hit" versus "how much damage can I soak". Han couldn't soak as much damage as a stormtrooper when he wasn't in their armor (in it is another story if he had Brawn 3 ) but he could sure be harder to hit than they were!

P.S. Don't worry re: a lightsaber and a Hutt... in EotE they have Breach 1, aka "ignore 10 points of Soak".

Ah. that makes sense about the lightsabers, thanks.

Not sure what I'll do about minions, because the players really want me to address this. I might go with the rule the full EoE book has for ending combats quickly - when things are starting to drag in a minion fight, make them roll some dice to end it, take some hits and move on.

I really want to keep the characters thematically similar to the movies, without heavy armour or everyone toting blaster rifles, unless they are bounty hunters or someone for whom it looks thematically appropriate.

Not sure what I'll do about minions, because the players really want me to address this. I might go with the rule the full EoE book has for ending combats quickly - when things are starting to drag in a minion fight, make them roll some dice to end it, take some hits and move on.

I really want to keep the characters thematically similar to the movies, without heavy armour or everyone toting blaster rifles, unless they are bounty hunters or someone for whom it looks thematically appropriate.

Not really sure why your players are having trouble, as the others have said.

Again, I point out my answer in the first post I made. Have your players:

A) Be better shots

B) Get bigger weapons

or

C) Run away

If they are expecting to one shot troopers with a holdout blaster, I daresay they are being slightly unrealistic. One shot with a blaster carbine, fine, but holdout blaster? They better be rolling a bunch of successes to add damage to the base damage of the weapon if they expect that nonsense to occur frequently.

Again, they could just be victims of a bad rolling night. Those happen. Changing rules to suit your players "expectations" when they clearly can't get out of their own way rolling the dice is just wrong. If they were rolling bad, they were rolling bad. Nothing is going to change that.

Finally, (as C3P0 suggests) "Surrender is a perfectly acceptable alternative in extreme circumstances! The Empire may be gracious enough to..."

As someone said before, the "heroes" in the movies ran way, ALL the time. If they want to be heroes like in the movies, fine, tell them to invest in a good pair of running shoes. Additionally, they don't HAVE to wear armor, either. They are just going to have to actually take advantage of the surrounding environment and TAKE COVER. If they roll into every fight like its the shootout in the alley behind the OK corral, they shouldn't be upset when they get shot to ****.

Err, Shadai, the issue is that Maelora's players see something rather different than what you're describing and are playing EotE to get that, and the question is how to achieve that within RAW... specifically because the players aren't going for "needs bigger weapons" or "run away all the time". Frankly, I stand by the belief that "starting as higher-level PCs" is the way to go for this effect, since that's where the disconnect between my view and Maelora's players may be (that Luke may well be a starting PC, Leia may well be "social"-focused, but Han and Chewie definitely aren't starting PCs!).

To Maelora:

I would add re: lightsabers that they have a Critical rating of 1, meaning that a single Advantage is enough for a successful attack to inflict a critical hit, and it's the only "un-upgraded" weapon that has this, without requiring a corresponding attachment, modification or other way to upgrade a weapon to reach Crit 1.

The "thematically similar" thing though... as Shadai said, cover is a more readily accessible option for "not getting hit" than armor which is DR... I believe that the image on page 201 is a however-inadvertent-or-not summation of this. Also, again, while I recognize that this is unintuitive, every personal weapon is dealing at least one more point of damage than their Table 5-5: Ranged Weapons entries would suggest. Also, as this thread provides clarity on, Minion group Soak is only applied once per hit.

What page are you finding that "quick summation" rule on combat though?

EDIT: I just found this thread which has the interesting idea of a combat round being up to a minute long so that an attack doesn't necessarily mean a single shot narratively speaking ("divorce yourself from the idea that one roll of the dice equals one pull of the trigger") and from the prior link, if a player deals so much damage on a successful attack that they would deal two stormtroopers' worth of wounds (after Soak) simultaneously... then that's what happened.

Err, Shadai, the issue is that Maelora's players see something rather different than what you're describing and are playing EotE to get that, and the question is how to achieve that within RAW... specifically because the players aren't going for "needs bigger weapons" or "run away all the time". Frankly, I stand by the belief that "starting as higher-level PCs" is the way to go for this effect, since that's where the disconnect between my view and Maelora's players may be (that Luke may well be a starting PC, Leia may well be "social"-focused, but Han and Chewie definitely aren't starting PCs!).

That's fine.

But it doesn't take away the solution of "Be better shots."

If you bring a handgun to a fight where the opposition has rifles, you need to be a **** good shot to win that one. So if they don't want to run, or they don't want to "get bigger weapons", fine. Just be better shots. Remember, more successes mean more damage. So the way to get one hit kills with blaster pistols against stormtroopers is exactly... be better shots.

As they progress, they'll get access to mods and stuff to increase the effectiveness of their blaster pistols. Stuff that will increase the damage and/or help them hit. With good mechanics, they can mod those modifications even further for more increases. Han's pistol wasn't just a Heavy Blaster Pistol. It was a heavily modified Heavy Blaster Pistol.

Oh, and P 323 of the main book is the alternate one check method of ending combat.

Ehhh, that one's more for "wrapping up foregone encounters" whereas it seems like for Maelora's players that would be intended to be the norm...

My initial feeling is that when your players get a bit higher level and trade out their weapons for something harder hitting, they'll be able to drop stormtroopers much faster, but for now, as level 1s, they're not anything special.

If that is the feel you're wanting though, I would definitely start them with some experience right out of the gate, access to some weaponry, etc.

Lastly, on the topic of stormtroopers, the movies do, at times, make them seem incompetant, but remind them that during these battles, they were either ordered not to kill the heroes, OR the force could have very well been present to throw off their aim, because otherwise they're known for being quite accurate and fearsome. It'll be up to you in how you want to make them seem, but I feel if you allow stormtroopers to be seen as a non-threat, you'll rob yourself of a very useful enemy minion type.

You can also just have it be the Imperial Naval Troopers if you need even weaker minions.

I'm still curious if they are seeing minion groups as one "stormtrooper". Cause yes it takes 4-5 shots to take out a minion group sometimes, but that is also because its probably 3-4 stormtroopers.