Is there a way to get the cool effects of the new wound system without it's extra tracking?
One idea that I've been toying with is to keep the DH1 Wounds system, with the addition that each character also rolls for 'effects' at 25% increments of their Wound characteristic total. Hence, a PC with 12 Wounds would roll when he takes 3 total points of damage, and again at 6, etc. What do you think- would that be the best of both worlds, or the worst...?
I think you're looking at the noisy minority rather than the silent majority. There are a lot of people who dropped out early due to major issues in their opinions, and those issues still haven't been looked at. (EG Skills trees and the wounds system)
Some people in this thread said that they'd play this over first ed. I do not think that is the majority opinion. I personally would stick with first ed for the amount of flavour the players can get out of character creation alone... And that's not my only gripe!
Did you mean talent trees? I think the idea is good but the current execution is not.
As to the point of character creation, I would go definitely for dh2 as there is more freedom. For me that means more option. The only two missing things are some homeworld types and transition to Inquisition.
Where it comes to character evolution dh2 stands much higher in my opinion. Sure you can get similar freedom in dh1 but you need to convert to ow.
I love fate triggered abilities.
I like the new combat with APs and wound system. For me it's more dynamic and 'realistic'. I've tried it and didn't find it particularly heavy on book keeping. At least not heavier than DH1.
I like the change in psy powers as well and the fact they are more dangerous to use.
The biggest problem for me is scalability to bigger stuff i.e. SM, tyranid warriors, carnifaxes, big daemons etc. This as the system stands is broken.
Some talents are odd or useless.
Starting equipment should be cross reference of background and homeworld and role. That's another broken thing for me.
In social encounters I like the fact that different skill uses work differently on different archetypes. What I don't like is the fact that NPCs are too passive. The social encounter mechanic in Tome of Excess is much better.
Edited by dholda
Have you seen the Only War conversion for Dark Heresy on Google Docs? I'd appreciate it if someone could take a look at it before Friday so that I can decide if I need to shift before then.
Is there a way to get the cool effects of the new wound system without it's extra tracking?
In Fate Core, you can take a "consequence" instead of dropping dead (being "Taken Out"). Could you make a # Wounds -> Consequences chart to keep going? e.g., you're it, you can take 10 wounds, you've taken 9. You can now - take another hit and drop dead or eliminate N wounds by taking a consequence (e.g., for 5 your leg is crippled) - you can keep fighting because you're awesome but you're going to have all sorts of problems.
I don't ever see it happening in a math-heavy game like the 40k games, but FATE handles wounds elegantly.
Losing a limb was what tended to happen with dark heresy for house rules, would be cool to do the same here and have cheap bionics be what you replaced it with for free. So you have a gimpy leg until you replaced it with influence checks.
Yet, many people seem to like it, and it makes me sad. Not because I think my preference is objectively superior or something like that, just because I'm jealous some people will get a lot of new cool stuff FFG no doubt has in mind for the new edition, stuff I won't be able to enjoy.
Dont worry, many people feel the same way.
Edited by kingcomI guess what really saddens me is, somehow this new edition made me become the grumpy grognard.
Welcome to the club! Here's your decoder ring and the complimentary set of red-tinted goggles.
For what it's worth, any sort of deviation brings with it the risk of unsettling a portion of veteran players, and although we may feel somewhat bitter for being "left behind", it is not at all surprising that such drastic changes do not sit well with everyone. It's kind of like with Hollywood Remakes of popular movies! Expectations are either fulfilled or disappointed. All we can ultimately do is sit back and wish the others a fun journey, hopefully finding some alternative or just sticking with what we grew to like. Or even writing our own set of house rules/adaptions/total conversions (one of these days I'll find the time ...).
Perhaps the changes to the system will be sufficient to attract an entirely new group of people to the game, compensating for the loss of "old-schoolers" and promoting a second generation of Dark Heresy players, so to say, complete with a shift in forum culture and new ideas. That may well have been the idea behind the shift, unless the core concept was to introduce the changes purely for their own sake in an attempt to have everyone buy the "same" book again.
I don't ever see it happening in a math-heavy game like the 40k games, but FATE handles wounds elegantly.
Math-heavy? ...what? Can you elaborate?
Welcome to the club! Here's your decoder ring and the complimentary set of red-tinted goggles.
For what it's worth, any sort of deviation brings with it the risk of unsettling a portion of veteran players, and although we may feel somewhat bitter for being "left behind", it is not at all surprising that such drastic changes do not sit well with everyone. It's kind of like with Hollywood Remakes of popular movies! Expectations are either fulfilled or disappointed. All we can ultimately do is sit back and wish the others a fun journey, hopefully finding some alternative or just sticking with what we grew to like. Or even writing our own set of house rules/adaptions/total conversions (one of these days I'll find the time ...).
Don't suppose you've got another set in that bag?
Hmm... I can't complain about the wound/action points system. I love Inquisitor from way back when, and this is essentially a hybrid of Dark Heresy and Inquisitor . It just seems a little wierd that at the same time the new Star Wars Edge Of The Empire/Age Of Rebellion RPG is pushing combat rules very much towards a light, bright and quick mechanic with vague range bands and a single multi-die roll to resolve attacks, Dark Heresy 2 is pulling out rules that seem more intended to draw in miniatures-and-maps types.
Besides which, combat tends to be short and massively unfair to one side or another in most adventures I run, so I can live with pretty much any system.
Influence is nice, but more background on acquiring services (read: requisitioning armed mooks) would have been nice.
To be honest, I'm looking forward to it.
I don't ever see it happening in a math-heavy game like the 40k games, but FATE handles wounds elegantly.
Math-heavy? ...what? Can you elaborate?
I think the d100 system is math-heavy just by its nature. In combat, just to make an attack you have to subtract your BS/WS from what you roll, figure out how many DoS you get and how many extra dice that gets you, tally the damage and subtract the opponent's soak, being careful to apply Pen to AP, and so on. Combat is where this comes out fully, but even basic skill tests involve subtracting two double-digit numbers from each other.
Compare that to a system like FATE, where the resolution mechanic is (d6-d6)+skill level against the same roll by the opponent and often only which is greater is important, not their difference. There are fewer operations and they're on a lower scale. I'm sure there are even simpler games but I'm most familiar with FATE.
I'm not making a value judgement here, just pointing out that the 40k games by their very nature are math-intensive. It would be very suprising to me if FFG were to move away from that, as its what their players expect from these games. My one wish for the simplification of the combat system is reworking the math to have Pen apply to a single soak value, instead of AP but not TB.
Yet, many people seem to like it, and it makes me sad. Not because I think my preference is objectively superior or something like that, just because I'm jealous some people will get a lot of new cool stuff FFG no doubt has in mind for the new edition, stuff I won't be able to enjoy.
I think you're looking at the noisy minority rather than the silent majority. There are a lot of people who dropped out early due to major issues in their opinions, and those issues still haven't been looked at. (EG Skills trees and the wounds system)
Some people in this thread said that they'd play this over first ed. I do not think that is the majority opinion. I personally would stick with first ed for the amount of flavour the players can get out of character creation alone... And that's not my only gripe!
We gave up on the Beta when the first update came out. The combat system, especially the wound charts and action points, are enough by themselves for us to scrap the whole thing. Which is a pity because there are some good things in the system too, I think. Those, I intend to dig out and use in my Only War/Dark Heresy games in future.
As it stands, for us, this new edition is unplayable and I wouldn't buy it or any other game using it's ruleset. We were very disappointed. I've hung around the forums to see if anything changed for the better, but I remain very disappointed.
I think the d100 system is math-heavy just by its nature. In combat, just to make an attack you have to subtract your BS/WS from what you roll, figure out how many DoS you get and how many extra dice that gets you, tally the damage and subtract the opponent's soak, being careful to apply Pen to AP, and so on. Combat is where this comes out fully, but even basic skill tests involve subtracting two double-digit numbers from each other.I don't ever see it happening in a math-heavy game like the 40k games, but FATE handles wounds elegantly.
Math-heavy? ...what? Can you elaborate?
Compare that to a system like FATE, where the resolution mechanic is (d6-d6)+skill level against the same roll by the opponent and often only which is greater is important, not their difference. There are fewer operations and they're on a lower scale. I'm sure there are even simpler games but I'm most familiar with FATE.
I'm not making a value judgement here, just pointing out that the 40k games by their very nature are math-intensive. It would be very suprising to me if FFG were to move away from that, as its what their players expect from these games. My one wish for the simplification of the combat system is reworking the math to have Pen apply to a single soak value, instead of AP but not TB.
Basic addition and subtraction is considered "math-intensive" these days? Good lord.
I figured you might post as such. Get off your high horse. It's a game, and yes, doing 2-4 math operations to resolve a single action in a game is math-intensive compared to other games out there.
Basic addition and subtraction is considered "math-intensive" these days? Good lord.
Why does the mention of math make everyone feel legitimised in being a ****?
He's not saying it's difficult. We can do the math. The point is, there's a lot of it. Every time it comes up - easy though it may be - it slows the game down. The combined effort is complex, even if individual computations aren't.
The 40k RPGs are definitely in the high end of math-intensitivity of RPGs I've played. There's probably something out there that's "worse" (not saying that math-intensive is inherently bad), but the majority are much simpler.
He's not saying it's difficult. We can do the math. The point is, there's a lot of it.
^ This.
The combat system, especially the wound charts and action points, are enough by themselves for us to scrap the whole thing. Which is a pity because there are some good things in the system too, I think. Those, I intend to dig out and use in my Only War/Dark Heresy games in future.
That's about my feelings as well. Though I have to add that certain design decisions that found their way late into the game in DH1 add to my overall scepticism, as I currently see no indication that they would be reverted in 2E. And lastly, I've had hopes for an overarching "universal" ruleset for every sort of game instead of just a continuation of the "theme-focused bubble-play" we already had until now.
Ah well. As I said, expectations.
Hmm... I can't complain about the wound/action points system. I love Inquisitor from way back when, and this is essentially a hybrid of Dark Heresy and Inquisitor .
The "hybrid" thing is what first came to my mind upon reading (about) the beta rules as well. Ironically, for me it seems as if DH2 doesn't go far enough and still keeps the skin armour that is Toughness Bonus instead of adopting Inquisitor's realistic lethalty. I thus predict that the 2nd edition will suffer from many the same issues as the 1st one in terms of character resilience and compatibility issues between specific archetypes.
I figured you might post as such. Get off your high horse.
It's a game, and yes, doing 2-4 math operations to resolve a single action in a game is math-intensive compared to other games out there.
Why does the mention of math make everyone feel legitimised in being a ****?
He's not saying it's difficult. We can do the math. The point is, there's a lot of it. Every time it comes up - easy though it may be - it slows the game down. The combined effort is complex, even if individual computations aren't.
The 40k RPGs are definitely in the high end of math-intensitivity of RPGs I've played. There's probably something out there that's "worse" (not saying that math-intensive is inherently bad), but the majority are much simpler.
The only slow-down I've noticed while playing is when people don't have their sheets or don't know their modifiers, but that's honestly a problem that would exist under almost any system, after all.
This is a total tangent from the original OP, but congratulations in using it to inflate your own ego, and thank you for further reinforcing my opinion of you.
My original point was that a FATE-style wound system, while elegant in its own way, doesn't jive with the 40k systems.
This is a total tangent from the original OP, but congratulations in using it to inflate your own ego, and thank you for further reinforcing my opinion of you.
My original point was that a FATE-style wound system, while elegant in its own way, doesn't jive with the 40k systems.
My original point was that a FATE-style wound system, while elegant in its own way, doesn't jive with the 40k systems.
As much as I like the whole consequences thing, I can get that.
Always happy to help.This is a total tangent from the original OP, but congratulations in using it to inflate your own ego, and thank you for further reinforcing my opinion of you.
I don't think anyone's argued with you on that point, though.My original point was that a FATE-style wound system, while elegant in its own way, doesn't jive with the 40k systems.
No, you're making up your own argument for argument's sake.