With the cutoff for beta nearly here do you feel DH2 is ready? I'm in the no camp as I fear we could end up with a new system that needs more polish that another month would deliver.

I'm wondering if the timescale was based on the consept that the game would be brought in line with other 40K rpgs. What we got however was an almost completely new game...

So I'd vote for "no not ready"!

Not ready... except, I'd still play what we have over DH1 (though maybe not over homebrew DH/OW upgrades).

I think there's so much potential in DH2 that it'd be a disaster to release it now. It's playable as-is (well, almost), but if it's released now, it'll be a mediocre RPG at best. If given some more time, it could end up great.

I say it depends a lot on the next Update.

If the next update adresses a lot of things, and they take one more week to take into account further issues, I would be tempted to say 'Yes'. But that really depends on the coming Update.

We are still missing a weekly update though. We should get an additional week to make up for it if the rules need it.

The issue is, FFG do have deadlines to keep. Deadlines which are probably rather inconvenient to change.

I'm sure they do but is the deadline more important than the quality of the product? This is why deadlines get moved during video game development all of the time. I'm not saying that DH2 needs to do that but I would hope that they put out a polished product versus rushing it out with flaws that will harm the game.

As it is now, I say no, it's not ready. Let's see what the new update brings.

We'll see when the actual update 4 comes out, but honestly... probably not even then.

There's potential, but so much to adjust... If it came out with just half of the suggested fixes, it wouldn't even get some use like Only War... It would just lie there forgotten.

I'm... I'm not sure it ever will be. But right now, no, no way.

I only ran a few games in the original Dark Heresy system, so I don't have any particular stake in it one way or another. What makes the new system unworkable as it is?

I'm only bringing it up because I'm going to try running it on Saturday and I want to have time to tell everyone to make DH v1 characters.

There are a few things that are inarguably broken (for example, weight and carrying capacity). Some of the issues people have with it come down to personal preference, though (e.g. money vs. influence). It's definitely not unplayable, though.

Overall, I'd say it's no more broken than 1e is (even with the errata). Of course, that's not where you'd want to be if you're releasing a new game but FFG probably still have a few weeks to work on it before it has to be sent to print.

I'm... I'm not sure it ever will be. But right now, no, no way.

Same here. I've pretty much given up on 2e already, because the general direction FFG apparently wants to take doesn't sit well with me or my group. But at the same time, I don't think they're doing too well trying to get those rules to do what they want them to do. And I don't think it's something they can fix with one more update.

Maybe it's just a preference thing. I like the influence rules a lot and I've never asked my players to keep track of the weight of things unless it's something absurd. I'm not sure what this means though.

There are a few things that are inarguably broken (for example, weight and carrying capacity). Some of the issues people have with it come down to personal preference, though (e.g. money vs. influence). It's definitely not unplayable, though.

Overall, I'd say it's no more broken than 1e is (even with the errata). Of course, that's not where you'd want to be if you're releasing a new game but FFG probably still have a few weeks to work on it before it has to be sent to print.

The game is not unplayable but as I said it needs polish to be great.

The problems I have with it now could be easily fixed by errata if they make it into the release version.

A few minor tweaks, but I'd say it's good to go. I've been very impressed with it. A major improvement over 1st ed. and I think the significant problems have been worked out over the past couple of weeks.

Additionally, several of the things people are asking to be changed I like the way they are and I'm of the opinion that if you changed it in some of the ways suggested in places, it would be worse. So I'm actually quite keen that they release it soon before anyone persuades them to break it based on their own preferences.

It really saddens me how much what I want out of my 40kRPG is fundamentally incompatible with what people seem to want out of it, judging by the number of extremely positive voices this beta gets, and how much negativity 1e gets here.

First edition 40k only broke down on me twice - once in Ascension and once in pre-errata Deathwatch. Since then, DW has been errata'd and the rules from later games make Ascension rather redundant. Other than that, we've always had a blast playing each and every system time and again. Sure, the rules could use more polish here and there, but no problem we've encountered was insurmountable.

In comes DH2, and it seems most of the development effort was put into fixing things I never considered broken. Not only that, but I can't help but consider those "fixes" horrible (my opinion, mind). Combat, one of my favorite things about old rules, went from fast and loose to something I could enjoy in a turn-based cRPG, but something I'd never want to keep track of at the table. Keeping track of things seems to be the name of the game with the new system, and it's the exact opposite of what I want to do with my games. In a way, to me, the new system feels much more dated than the old one - it looks like something made in the olden days of D&D and Rolemaster, when counting a hundred different things and looking up random tables was considered an inseparable part of the roleplaying experience. Well, that's really not the experience I'm fond of.

Yet, many people seem to like it, and it makes me sad. Not because I think my preference is objectively superior or something like that, just because I'm jealous some people will get a lot of new cool stuff FFG no doubt has in mind for the new edition, stuff I won't be able to enjoy.

I don't really have a point here, just needed to get that off my chest for quite some time, and this topic seemed somewhat adequate. Carry on.

Keeping track of things seems to be the name of the game with the new system, and it's the exact opposite of what I want to do with my games.

Can you elaborate. It seems like people are complaining that it's too loose.

Yet, many people seem to like it, and it makes me sad. Not because I think my preference is objectively superior or something like that, just because I'm jealous some people will get a lot of new cool stuff FFG no doubt has in mind for the new edition, stuff I won't be able to enjoy.

I think you're looking at the noisy minority rather than the silent majority. There are a lot of people who dropped out early due to major issues in their opinions, and those issues still haven't been looked at. (EG Skills trees and the wounds system)

Some people in this thread said that they'd play this over first ed. I do not think that is the majority opinion. I personally would stick with first ed for the amount of flavour the players can get out of character creation alone... And that's not my only gripe!

Keeping track of things seems to be the name of the game with the new system, and it's the exact opposite of what I want to do with my games.

Can you elaborate. It seems like people are complaining that it's too loose.

Simple: in 1e, all I really had to keep track of in combat was the damage. Hit locations didn't matter unless someone had different AP values for different locations or critical damage/Righteous Fury was scored. Sometimes, an attack dealt one of about five status effects, but more often than not it was just damage, and those status effects that existed were rather easy to keep track of. Sometimes, usually not more than 2-3 times per fight, I had to crack open the book and consult the critical charts.

In DH2, I still have to keep track of damage (as in Wounds that modify the next damage roll), but I also have to check each attack against the critical charts and more likely than not apply several cumulative status effects - the combat engine is so reliant on them, it lists resolving them as a separate step in anyone's turn. Of course, that also means I have to check for hit location with each and every attack. Fatigue? I have to check it against each and every stat I have to determine the effect while also checking it against a separate threshold. God forbid somebody brings a power sword to that fight, because now I also have to keep track of each individual piece of armor and weaponry. All the while I also have to remember how many action points each NPC has spent and how many he has left for making Reactions, when in 1e that number was pretty much constant.

Like I said - if I saw the same combat system in a turn-based tactical cRPG, I'd be delighted to play with such tactically complex rules, but the things I expect of my cRPGs are vastly different from what I expect of my tabletop RPG.

EDIT:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining that I won't have people to play old Dark Heresy with - like I said, my whole group is of the same mind regarding the new rules, and it's a very stable group.

But the fact remains that people like you and I who dropped out of the beta have pretty much given up this edition to those who actually like the kind of play the new rules enforce. Who is the minority and who's the majority here is of no consequence - this game isn't for me (nor for you, apparently). Some people will enjoy the new rules and the new material the second edition will bring. I won't be enjoying any of it, because given the choice, I'd rather invest in 1e books for different lines for as long as they'll be coming out than buy books for the system I'm not interested in playing and try to somehow convert the relevant content to the rules I'm actually using.

I guess what really saddens me is, somehow this new edition made me become the grumpy grognard.

Have you seen the Only War conversion for Dark Heresy on Google Docs? I'd appreciate it if someone could take a look at it before Friday so that I can decide if I need to shift before then.

Is there a way to get the cool effects of the new wound system without it's extra tracking?

In Fate Core, you can take a "consequence" instead of dropping dead (being "Taken Out"). Could you make a # Wounds -> Consequences chart to keep going? e.g., you're it, you can take 10 wounds, you've taken 9. You can now - take another hit and drop dead or eliminate N wounds by taking a consequence (e.g., for 5 your leg is crippled) - you can keep fighting because you're awesome but you're going to have all sorts of problems.

I guess what really saddens me is, somehow this new edition made me become the grumpy grognard.

Aye, this.

Have you seen the Only War conversion for Dark Heresy on Google Docs? I'd appreciate it if someone could take a look at it before Friday so that I can decide if I need to shift before then.

Is there a way to get the cool effects of the new wound system without it's extra tracking?

In Fate Core, you can take a "consequence" instead of dropping dead (being "Taken Out"). Could you make a # Wounds -> Consequences chart to keep going? e.g., you're it, you can take 10 wounds, you've taken 9. You can now - take another hit and drop dead or eliminate N wounds by taking a consequence (e.g., for 5 your leg is crippled) - you can keep fighting because you're awesome but you're going to have all sorts of problems.

I don't ever see it happening in a math-heavy game like the 40k games, but FATE handles wounds elegantly.

Well, Blood and Smoke, the new version of Vampire the Requiem, does this and it seems to work pretty well. It still has all the wound boxes and such.