If for whatever reason you could make a change to the DH2 rules what would it be and why? Not make DH2 is not a valid answer.

Add in an extra layer or two to character generation. Currently it's way too easy to get samey characters.

Do you mean optional stuff or a RT like path?

Add an equipment buy system to character creation
Switch the armoury section to something more in line with OW

Give everyone only one armour value, a la D&D

Minimise the number of wound tables

Do you mean optional stuff or a RT like path?

Something like RT, yeah. Probably pertaining to the events leading up to you joining the Inquisition.

Remove Penetration from the game (as discussed in another thread).

I'd like to minimise the number of Wound Tables, as well, but I don't currently see how. I like hit locations.

Add in an extra layer or two to character generation. Currently it's way too easy to get samey characters.

+1

I'd like to minimise the number of Wound Tables, as well, but I don't currently see how. I like hit locations.

There are 2 options here.

1 - Have one for each damage type and say, when you need to, something like "if this hits a limb the limb is crippled"

2 - Have one for each location and say, when you need to, something like "if the hit is by an energy weapon it is on fire"

I'd go with the former, but then I'd completely get rid of hit locations and leave that it the hands of the DM like in pathfinder + D&D etc

I've got to second the call for more detailed character creation - in my view RT and OW have got fantastic character creation systems and DH2 just feels lacking at the moment - probably doesn't help that DH1 has a massive wealth of suppliaments giving extra char gen stuff.

The other thing I would do is add an optional Wealth system to the game - its been discusssed at length elsewhere on these forums - either along the old DH1 lines or possibly along the DW line.

These changes I would make based on my groups playtest

Just from reading the rules (we never got as far as a fight before my players decided they wanted DH1 back) I'm not so sure I like the new combat system - but having no practical experience of playing it I don't feel that I can offer a better alternative.

Regards

Surak

In my opinion chargen could be greatly helped not by an additional step, but by reintroducing the A or B choices present in every game since DH1. Adding a few to each background would greatly increase character diversity.

I think combat needs to be simplified a lot. Having TB and Armor with pen only applying to one of them has been in every game and (at least for my group) slows down play. I'd like to see a combat system with one value for damage soak and a penetration value that applies to it. Of course, this would require every single weapon and adversary NPC to be reworked and isn't likely to happen.

I would also add more details to the character creation. I would also like to add more detail to the Lore and knowledge skills, maybe more tiers based upon the amount of ranks put in it. The more ranks, the more detailed info that the PC knows.

I would rather see something like background packages and origins than a RT like character creation and I think 3 steps is just right.

I would like to see another stem to character creation as well but I would specifically like to see a "Motivation" step added which could then be the basis for some role playing. One of the mechanics in DW that I was initially skeptical of but I eventually realized encouraged role playing was the Demeanour system.

Although it is not possible to port the system directly over I think that something similar based around motivations or perhaps even a revamped version of the optional "beliefs" section of the character quirks additional chargen document on the support section could reuse this mechanic, encouraging DH2 players to portray their characters beliefs and motivations and to act according to them.

Motivations need not be voluntary of course, perhaps you are recruited by force, as an alternative to corporal/capital punishment, or even without your realizing what you have gotten involved in. Nonetheless, the origin story of your PC's connection to the Inquisition is meaningful, distinguishes them from the masses, and gives them depth.

Everybody loves a good origin story, so encourage players to roll some details and then flesh it out by writing their own. Such origins are difficult to actually run as adventures since they logically predate the party of PCs being assembled but they could be interwoven with one another, creating potential dynamics for future interaction and roleplaying.

Besides that extra layer of chargen I would most like to see the end of Rate of Attack values below 1. I really find them destructive to the fluidity and interesting choices presented by AP governed combat.

Everything else is largely editing and balancing. I would like better variety and scaling in psychic powers, for example.

Funny you say that Togath. The new D&D system is experimenting with a system that uses PC flaws, motivations, traits, and bonds (important places, items, or people that the PC finds all important).

Change the Wound system so it no longer absolutely favors number of previous hits while ignoring intensity

Change ROF System: either EVERYTHING uses stat base OR NOTHING DOES.

Change Plasma, AGAIN. It was finally decent in BC, and then Only War dragged it kicking and screaming back down to DH1 levels and kicked it in the ribs, then spat on it with Hammer of The Emperor's "mastery" tax-talents still keeping it behind.

Change Psychic Powers: Too many are near identical, far too many don't scale well, and quite a few are outright useless including the shield ones.

Change Carrying Capacity table: Right now the IG background is required to be anything but a bedridden terminal patient... Until you hit Sb5 and explode into a mega-athlete. Bad curve is bad.

OH: AND WE NEED RANGEBANDS BACK.

After all that, we'll be able to see what actually needs fine-tuning.

In my opinion chargen could be greatly helped not by an additional step, but by reintroducing the A or B choices present in every game since DH1. Adding a few to each background would greatly increase character diversity.

I agree.

Change the Wound system so it no longer absolutely favors number of previous hits while ignoring intensity

How would you approach doing this while still keeping the spirit of the current rules, though?

While they aren't perfect, I've suggested a few ways:

Highest Wound actually sustained - maximum limit could be required

Penetration + certain amount [probably Pen+2 or so]; again, limited to highest wounded by in the previous action

If you really want to keep multiple hits as a bonus, you can apply them as a flat but lower boost to the above, such as +1 or +2 per hit beyond the first.

Anything to help balance RoF vs single hits and "autogun dealt 1" vs "multi-melta"

I'd like the Wound system shifted back towards Dark Heresy 1, in steps and tracking, or even further, towards Edge of Empire's system. Both take fewer steps, both have damage reduction based on armor and toughness, both have crit tables once a wound value is depleted.

I'd like cover to provide a permanent armor bonus so I wouldn't have to track decay.

Some bonus to RoF <1 per AP to up them to passable.

Additional layers of narrative character generation are always nice.

Change the Wound system so it no longer absolutely favors number of previous hits while ignoring intensity

How would you approach doing this while still keeping the spirit of the current rules, though?

Why cant weapons that do a high amount of damage in the attack do some kind of overbleed that gives a little bit more beyond the +5/+10 to the wound?

Though thats a weird extra thing that might be tough to remember to do. Maybe a weapon quality that lets you give 2 wounds instead of 1 for the hit?

Give everyone only one armour value, a la D&D

Blech... please no. I would actually like to see more variety in armour values, so that hit location matters more. D&D is not a system I want to emulate. If I want the bizarreness that is d&d, I will play d&d (which I am doing currently).

I am not even sure why you would want this. It barely adds any further complication to the system having different armour values.

Give everyone only one armour value, a la D&D

Blech... please no. I would actually like to see more variety in armour values, so that hit location matters more. D&D is not a system I want to emulate. If I want the bizarreness that is d&d, I will play d&d (which I am doing currently).

I am not even sure why you would want this. It barely adds any further complication to the system having different armour values.

This.

I do believe that hit locations and variable armour do add to the amount of time it takes to run a turn in any current 40k RPG. Determining hit location and determining how much damage differently for every hit of the same attack does slow things down in my experience. However, that is just my opinion, and my experience.

I do believe that hit locations and variable armour do add to the amount of time it takes to run a turn in any current 40k RPG. Determining hit location and determining how much damage differently for every hit of the same attack does slow things down in my experience. However, that is just my opinion, and my experience.

I agree with this. The amount of complication is subjective, since different people can process it differently but also have varying tolerances for different levels of crunch. For me it's an extra 5 variables, multiplied by however many players and NPCs are within the combat.

The way I ran DH was to use context. Armor value was abstracted across the whole body, unless there was a glaring example like no helmet or arm armor. Then those areas would receive some kind of extra damage determined on the fly.

In my experience hIt location added barely any time to combat resolution, at least for the PCs' attacks. It was part of the to-hit roll, and if you had the chart in front of you it took at most a second to work out, and in the space of one combat you usually got to know most of the obvious ones quite quickly ("It ends with a 4... body."). At that point the difference in armour values barely adds anything in extra complexity ("Gah, my Head. No armour there, so just -3 damage for TB"). Now, when it came to criticals I will accept it did add a bit to the complexity ("Ok, so the rending critical table.... Which one is the Arm table? Ok, Critical 3 on the arm..."). However, Criticals don't happen often enough to slow the game down too drastically.

Basically I can't see how different armour values add time unless you remove hit locations completely. The variety of armour on top of that didn't add much. Hit locations could slow it a bit down for the GM, as I tend to find with all the elements of the story and rules to keep track of it takes a little longer to work that out. However, once that is determined, a quick "12 damage to the Body", and the player can work out the exact amount of damage he takes. No need for the GM to keep track of the PCs' armour values, just his NPCs, and even then with a visual reminder it is easy ("Arm!" Quick look at NPC sheet. See easily Arm has 1 armour, so NPC soaks 4 damage from the attack). The only time I could think it could get finnicky is if someone had different armour values on his right and left leg/arm. Trying to quickly differentiate between those is trickier, as the visual aid would be more difficult. Still possible, but you would have to be careful with it.

On top of this is the fact that DH characters don't have the sqillions of HP that, for example, dnd characters have. As the combat is comparatively shortened, and the complexity of the maths is reduced (usually we are talking about single digit amounts subtracted from at most double digit values, while in DnD it is often double digit amounts from other double digit amounts. The maths isn't hard, but it makes it harder to calculate in your head quickly), the tiny amount of additional time added by having to track hit locations is not making combats last much longer. Its not even like you have to make an additional hit location roll after the attack, which many systems use.

Additionally, DnD has many more instances of other complicating factors that mean that adding further detail to the combat just further overloads the system. Would I want DnD to have hit locations? Probably not. I am already tracking 3 different types of buff from various different sources, bonuses that only apply in various specific situations, and varying time limits on various things. 40k? Usually everything is on my character sheet. Occasionally I have to keep track of the length of some sort of status effect ("Stunned for 3 rounds"), but overall the combat complexity is lower, at least in my experience. The additional "burden" of hit locations doesn't feel overloading.