I cannot believe I am having actual FUN building squads that include a TIE Advanced! A TIE Advanced that isn't Darth Vader, even! Here's just one example of how Wave 3 has reinvigorated this ship for me:

• Maarek Stele (27), Cluster Missiles (4), Marksmanship (3), Stealth Device (3)
  
• Captain Jonus (22), Cluster Missiles (4), Push the Limit (3)
  
• Major Rhymer (26), Cluster Missiles (4), Marksmanship (3)
  

Points reductions are much easier to handle errata-wise than points increases. Release the errata, make sure that the cards in future reprints accurately reflect the new cost. We already see very little use of the overpriced ships, there will be next to zero participation in tournaments (which is the only place official points costs are strictly enforced) by people using the "old costs". Only people with correct, up to date costs will be running those ships in tournaments. For the occasional person who enters a tournament with "old info", his list will still be legal since he will now have a list that runs less than 100 points, so you won't have people getting disqualified because they didn't know what is going on.

In any case, familiarity with the rules and the current FAQ is a requirement to play in tournaments already. Regardless of whether you know it or not, Boosting or Barrel-Rolling onto a Prox Mine will set it off because that is the ruling in the most recent FAQ. You now have an entirely new layer of rules about premeasuring actions that runs flatly against the wording in the rulebook. Resistance to a simple errata changing the cost of a ship is emotional, not practical.

Up till now the FAQs and Errata changes have only addressed the rules or addressed confusion regarding the interpretation of certain cards... they haven't gone back and actually changed the functional wording of the cards, have they? Even if they have the cards still behave the same.

Addressing and clarifying the understanding of the game is one thing but saying, "The printed facts are wrong" is something else. Doing so also opens up the precedent of allowing FFG to change anything they want at will, even right before tournaments. It can also upset established builds and begs the question, "if you didn't mean to say it this way when you printed it, why did you print it this way in the first place?"

So I can understand practical reasons to resisting an errata change out of the blue suddenly changing what the printed card says. And I still oppose a broad cost reduction on these fighters even though I would like to see them on the table!

I believe the best way to fix these fighters is still to either create a new situation where they would be the perfect counter, or introduce enticing upgrades that make combining with the TIE x1 an attractive option. The L-s9.3 I mentioned above would be workable because presumably of the three advanced fighters (X1, Avenger, Defender) the x1 would be the cheapest fighter to mount them. I'm sure anyone can agree an auto-focus is very attractive, but in order to use it you'd need expensive ships, of which the x1 is the cheapest. At 3-4 points you can make a 4-ship Tempest squadron list mounting L-s9.3s that give them better hitting power with an action still available. You'll still be low pilot skill but at least it's better than your effectiveness limited to the alpha strike.

I think they would be better off just adding new Tie Advanced (avenger) to the table since the x1 was a relatively rare ship since it was an experimental ship. Mareek in a Defender is scary to think about...

FFG has made some rulings that flat out contradict what the cards say. For example, Barrel Roll and Boost vs. Proximity Mines. They have cleared up other things as well. I am just saying that small changes, like a 1 or 2 point reduction in the cost of a ship, are no more difficult to disseminate among the community than rule changes/clarifications are.

For the record, I believe the real problem with both TIE/Ad and Y-Wings in general, as well as the preponderance of large ship lists, is due to the overcosting of single shot ordnance. A one or two point reduction in those costs would be more effective, in my opinion. A related benefit would be a more effective Alpha strike against swarms of TIE fighters by more valuable opponents.

Obviously these are just my thoughts and musings, the Dev team seems to be going a different direction. I just hope they don't make the same mistake pretty much every game design team has when they start down this path by creating a general "fix" to a specific problem that causes more issues than it solves.

I hear you on balance. I recall comparisons between Magic the Gathering and the Star Wars CCG. Magic just outlaws cards from tournaments once they've "expired", and Decipher's CCG continued to release Magic bullets to counter previous combos.

But I think Fantasy Flight may have a good handle on balance. we're on the verge of Wave 3 releases and the most powerful ships are still in the basic set. I was just in a tournament this past sunday and seven out of ten participants were flying variants of TIE swarms, and my opponents predominantly ran items from Wave 1. I expect Wave 3 is going to do a better job organically of countering TIE swarm lists, but not necessarily invalidating TIE swarms as a tactic.

This doesn't help the matter of X1s (and to some extent, Y-Wings) but I wouldn't count FFG out for having some enhancements in the future to help these ships.

I think both the x1s and the y-wings have gotten better with each wave, and I think as more things come out and the more options we have the more balanced it will all become.

I tend to believe that TIE Adv were deliberately overpriced (slightly) just as A-wings are deliberately overpriced (slightly). Both come very close to crossing over into the opposition's characteristics of ship design. The TIE/Adv reflects more rebel philosophy of robustness, secondary armament, etc. To field four of these effectively would put such a squad beyond 100 pts. The A-wing edges over towards the Imperial philosophy of maneuverability, speed and light armament. To field an Imperial-like swarm of five of them would put the squad beyond 100 pts.

So I think the pricing of the TIE Adv. and A-Wing is more by design that miscalculation. The TIE Adv. abilities now are augmented by the TIE bomber without the perceived necessity to correct their cost.

MarvG. well said. thats bang on. i think the tie-advanced is (and always has) been slightly better than its critics/haters claim. its potential has been somewhat under the radar... now with the superb support ship Jonus in town, it will imo get a second chance to shine (or at least fullful some of its potential as a missile carrier with excellent durability and solid defensive abilities).

In summary. Jonus makes tie-advanced w missiles more playable and actually good.

I guess my problem with all this talk about point reductions is that the TIE advanced is already at the lowest it can go without making it swarmy. If you drop them down to 20 points you can fit 5 on a squad. I'm not saying that will break the game, but it might. The empire doesn't need more fighter spam lists. I think that's why they designed them at 21 points. After all, it's not like TIE advanced were seen in large groups, right?

Somebody earlier said that units costing too little can break the game. I agree. They also said units costing too much can break it. I disagree. If a unit costs too much, then that expansion sits on the shelf and the game goes on fine without it.

I agree with Parakitor. Do we need another swarm ship? A better one at that? Also I agree with his comment about breaking the game. Too high a point cost wouldn't get used but it would cause me to buy it anyway because hey! It is Star Wars after all.

I cannot believe I am having actual FUN building squads that include a TIE Advanced! A TIE Advanced that isn't Darth Vader, even! Here's just one example of how Wave 3 has reinvigorated this ship for me:

• Maarek Stele (27), Cluster Missiles (4), Marksmanship (3), Stealth Device (3)
• Captain Jonus (22), Cluster Missiles (4), Push the Limit (3)
• Major Rhymer (26), Cluster Missiles (4), Marksmanship (3)

Maarek's ability is to pick which crit from the top three cards on the deck you have to take if he hits you with an attack. A cluster missile delivers two attacks in one shot. Marksmanship turns the first focus into a crit from any attack. Captain Jonus lets Maarek roll up to two dice from each of the attacks - which, with Marksmanship, means the chances of getting at least one crit per attack are pretty darn good (and the odds of Maarek finding at least one Direct Hit at the top of the deck are high since 7 of the 33 damage cards are Direct Hits).

Want to attack him early? Good luck - he has four agility thanks to his Stealth Device (which would NOT be the case on a TIE Bomber). PLUS he would last pretty well into the middle and end game with his shields, stealth, agility, good maneuver dial, and ability to deal crits.

This does seem to reinvigorate the TIE Advanced.

Question (Opinion Poll): Do you think FFG should (or will) come out with separate Pilot and Ship Cards not too dissimilar to Star Trek Attack Wing? I'm just bummed about Captain Jonus' skill and him being on a bomber. In most builds I see people suggesting having him without any ordnance. It just seems weird to me that's all.

I guess my problem with all this talk about point reductions is that the TIE advanced is already at the lowest it can go without making it swarmy. If you drop them down to 20 points you can fit 5 on a squad. I'm not saying that will break the game, but it might. The empire doesn't need more fighter spam lists. I think that's why they designed them at 21 points. After all, it's not like TIE advanced were seen in large groups, right?

Somebody earlier said that units costing too little can break the game. I agree. They also said units costing too much can break it. I disagree. If a unit costs too much, then that expansion sits on the shelf and the game goes on fine without it.

I agree with Parakitor. Do we need another swarm ship? A better one at that? Also I agree with his comment about breaking the game. Too high a point cost wouldn't get used but it would cause me to buy it anyway because hey! It is Star Wars after all.

I cannot believe I am having actual FUN building squads that include a TIE Advanced! A TIE Advanced that isn't Darth Vader, even! Here's just one example of how Wave 3 has reinvigorated this ship for me:

• Maarek Stele (27), Cluster Missiles (4), Marksmanship (3), Stealth Device (3)
• Captain Jonus (22), Cluster Missiles (4), Push the Limit (3)
• Major Rhymer (26), Cluster Missiles (4), Marksmanship (3)

Maarek's ability is to pick which crit from the top three cards on the deck you have to take if he hits you with an attack. A cluster missile delivers two attacks in one shot. Marksmanship turns the first focus into a crit from any attack. Captain Jonus lets Maarek roll up to two dice from each of the attacks - which, with Marksmanship, means the chances of getting at least one crit per attack are pretty darn good (and the odds of Maarek finding at least one Direct Hit at the top of the deck are high since 7 of the 33 damage cards are Direct Hits).

Want to attack him early? Good luck - he has four agility thanks to his Stealth Device (which would NOT be the case on a TIE Bomber). PLUS he would last pretty well into the middle and end game with his shields, stealth, agility, good maneuver dial, and ability to deal crits.

This does seem to reinvigorate the TIE Advanced.

Question (Opinion Poll): Do you think FFG should (or will) come out with separate Pilot and Ship Cards not too dissimilar to Star Trek Attack Wing? I'm just bummed about Captain Jonus' skill and him being on a bomber. In most builds I see people suggesting having him without any ordnance. It just seems weird to me that's all.

I don't like it either, and I don't see why more people don't load him out with homing missiles, as if they're fired with a focus and target lock available benefit the least from his ability anyway.

Honestly i don't think they will see more play. Yes they are more survivable than a bomber but besides Jonus you can either fit 3 advanceds with one missile each, or 3 Bombers with 2 ordnance each. I prefer the bomber because if you get 6 boosted ordnance before you have to fall back to pea shooters. And you can adapt your ordnance to pretty much any situation too. The advanceds 3 shots get boosted too but i am not sure if you can weaken the enemy enough to win the game after that.

After all 3 Green squadron A-Wings with missiles and Push the limit for boosted shots are not all that great of a squadron either, and they are comparable to the advanceds with the Jonus boost!

I really hope that Wave 3 will help them, but quite honestly i don't see it too much. Like others have said, they have quite a bit more survivability but they can only take 1 missile and their cost it just too high. What i would like to see for them is a Title Card that allows for an Elite Pilot Slot. They are experimental pilots after all, and so they should be among the best the imperials have to offer. I think an EPS would greatly enhance their viability.

I really hope that Wave 3 will help them, but quite honestly i don't see it too much. Like others have said, they have quite a bit more survivability but they can only take 1 missile and their cost it just too high. What i would like to see for them is a Title Card that allows for an Elite Pilot Slot. They are experimental pilots after all, and so they should be among the best the imperials have to offer. I think an EPS would greatly enhance their viability.

Yeah as experimental fighters I would love to see a couple of unique "Experimental Prototype" Titles, which gave them interesting buffs. just enough to make them a bit more viable.

I hear you on balance. I recall comparisons between Magic the Gathering and the Star Wars CCG. Magic just outlaws cards from tournaments once they've "expired", and Decipher's CCG continued to release Magic bullets to counter previous combos.

But I think Fantasy Flight may have a good handle on balance. we're on the verge of Wave 3 releases and the most powerful ships are still in the basic set. I was just in a tournament this past sunday and seven out of ten participants were flying variants of TIE swarms, and my opponents predominantly ran items from Wave 1. I expect Wave 3 is going to do a better job organically of countering TIE swarm lists, but not necessarily invalidating TIE swarms as a tactic.

This doesn't help the matter of X1s (and to some extent, Y-Wings) but I wouldn't count FFG out for having some enhancements in the future to help these ships.

I can recall a thread in wave 1 where i complained about the lack of common sense in costing of Tie/Ln vs. Y-Wings. Essentially my point was that 2 Academy pilots just cost one point more as one Y-Wing with ion turret (which until wave 3 really hits is the onlyvway of playing s Y-Wing, lets just face it) or only 2 points more than a Y-Wing with one Torpedo. If you compare this you have a Y-Wing without any chance whatsoever of winning a fight against those ties if dice rolls are not extremely in favor of the Rebel. Well guess what, this is still the case. Also people were bashing me for essentially only stating this most obvious detail. Swarms are still extremely strong and Y-Wings are still overcosted even today! And honestly a 5 advanced squad with 20 points per ship, i would not find it overpowered either! As a consequence, the Wave 1 meta was Tie swarms versus 3-4 X-Wing lists. And until wave 3 is fully released for everyone, those lists are still very good (look at gencon...). There are new powerful additions to these ships, but the Y-Wing is still a little weak and the advanced is very weak in wave 2!

So should they change the costs of these ships? Probably yes, but it's just not going to happen if you ask me for practical reasons. They can't errata or reprint all the cards for every player. So they need other methods to rebalance them and that's actually what they are trying by adding the blaster turret, better torps and missiles and support ships like Jendon and Kyle Katarn. But even with those tries of improvement i don't think that FFG is quite where they want to be with game balance and ship/ cost relations.

Also i am not talking about these ships in general but their no name pilots and some named ones. Because Vader is decently costed, as is Dutch if you ask me. But Maarek and Salm on the other hand are probably 1-2 points overcosted. Or did anyone of you use them to great effect since release of the game. Well i have not played them often and whenever i did they were just not worth it every single time.

I like the Tie Advanced, it just falls short on the performance/point cost ratio. I tend to use them when required by scenarios. I would however like to see an TIE Advanced Interceptor.

I'm open to eventually seeing upgrade cards to increase the performance of the TIE Advanced, and the Y-Wing. I think I tried putting engine upgrades on the TIE x1s and the results were kind of interesting. The X1's primary problem is still attacking but they are more resilient than normal TIEs, with a TIE fighter's movement options.

I don't rule out the chance of seeing another generic TIE x1 card being released. It could be something coming from a pilot pack deck.

does anyone else think that tie-advanced will see more play with wave3 on the scene?

I've always played the lower ranked TIE-Adv pilots when I play Imperials. I like using them as a missile delivery system. The low pilot skill allows the rest of the gang to strip the shields and focus tokens off a target, letting the Rank 2 Tempest Put a concussion missile where it'll do the most damage. It requires that you don't take a butt load of Academy Pilots though, or it doesn't really work out as planned.

The best way for me to ensure that there are a few Rank 3+ TIEs out there to do the prep work is to either take a few of the 15-16pt named characters or just one with a swarm tactics daisy chain with a Black Squadron and Academy Pilot.

When I play rebels, I have found that TIE Advanced aren't much of a problem to deal with. Once they fire that missile, they become just another TIE in the swarm... A slower TIE with a shield generator, But still just a TIE.

Maybe with the more diverse missile upgrades and bigger, easier to hit targets out there now, you could expect to see the TIE-Adv hit the table more often except that the new TIE-Bomber Can do the same thing for about the same points and with the ability to take more ammo to the party.

I'm thinking that in the end, it's going to show up as often as it does now. And that's okay.

-DavicusPrime