Thing is, Jegergryte's created a unique item that grants the wearer the innate talent talent Quick Draw for the purpose of readying stimpacks only. He hasn't said that now all holsters, shirt pockets, belts, and bandoliers grant the Quick Draw talent. He's relegated it to this specific homebrewed item. Could even be an attachment you put on a normal utility belt to be a little more in-line with the rules.

I know he created a "unique item" (I've already considered that); but the problem, so to speak, is that the item isn't really unique in any way.

It's not a "special" bandolier that somehow warrants its being a special exception to the rule. It's just an ordinary bandolier. Likewise, the reason it grants the "quick-access" bonus that it does is for the same everyday reason why people wear bandoliers in real life - they store items in a convenient location, thereby allowing easy access.

In turn, his ruling is that this is a sufficient justification for allowing stimpacks to be drawn from it as a mere incidental action. Indeed, this is a perfectly reasonable ruling in and of itself. Perhaps items stored in convenient locations should be accessible as incidental actions. I'm neither opposing nor supporting his ruling.

The issue, which he fails to acknowledge, is that the ruling does not exist in isolation (at least not unless you want to be arbitrary and inconsistent). Since there is nothing special about the bandolier, the same logic which permits items to be drawn from it as incidental actions must permit any similarly accessible item to be drawn as an incidental action. For example, a blaster in a hip holster. The weapon is stored in the quickest and easiest access location it could possibly be. That's precisely what the holster is for . Ergo, if it is possible to draw some items as an incidental due to convenience (e.g. the stimpack in the bandolier), then clearly the blaster in the holster must also qualify.

So if you want to be non-arbitrary and consistent, you can rule one way or the other. You can make this a general houserule or you can say (as per rules-as-written) that retrieving items from "inventory" requires a maneuver. But you can't keep the official rule while making special exceptions without some special reason to justify those exceptions, and there isn't one here.

As an aside, in other RPG contexts, you can more easily concoct such special exceptions than you can in the Star Wars settting. In D&D, for instance, the world is filled with random magical do-dads that can do just about anything you imagine. Thus, you can easily say that a certain magic item is a "Bandolier of Quick Access" which allows you to retrieve items from it as a free action (when you normally cannot ) because it's magic . But for better or worse, such options don't really exist in the Star Wars setting.

Except that items in this game grant users all sorts of mechanical bonuses all the time. Spending cash to get the limited benefits of a specific talent or skill bonus when using a specific item is completely supported by a large number of precedents.

There is no reason that Jegergryte now has to offer his players items that grant quick draw for every other possible item. He's made a very specific item with a very specific purpose. He is within his rights as a GM to disallow any more such homebrewed items in his game.

He's not using "logic" or exrapolating anything; he's creating a special item with specific rules.

Go with what works for your group. Some min/maxing groups will take total advantage of any mechanic that offers even the slightest advantage, other groups focus more on the role play and don't worry about being the "best," or gaining ever advantage they can get. I've played in both kinds of groups, and they can both be fun.

Every group and situation is different. It's not worth being rude to each other over.

1) It's not a "special" bandolier that somehow warrants its being a special exception to the rule. It's just an ordinary bandolier. Likewise, the reason it grants the "quick-access" bonus that it does is for the same everyday reason why people wear bandoliers in real life - they store items in a convenient location, thereby allowing easy access.

2) The issue, which he fails to acknowledge, is that the ruling does not exist in isolation (at least not unless you want to be arbitrary and inconsistent). Since there is nothing special about the bandolier, the same logic which permits items to be drawn from it as incidental actions must permit any similarly accessible item to be drawn as an incidental action. For example, a blaster in a hip holster. The weapon is stored in the quickest and easiest access location it could possibly be. That's precisely what the holster is for . Ergo, if it is possible to draw some items as an incidental due to convenience (e.g. the stimpack in the bandolier), then clearly the blaster in the holster must also qualify.

3) As an aside, in other RPG contexts, you can more easily concoct such special exceptions than you can in the Star Wars settting. In D&D, for instance, the world is filled with random magical do-dads that can do just about anything you imagine. Thus, you can easily say that a certain magic item is a "Bandolier of Quick Access" which allows you to retrieve items from it as a free action (when you normally cannot ) because it's magic . But for better or worse, such options don't really exist in the Star Wars setting.

1) This is were you're wrong, because the whole idea is that it is a special bandoleer ... the idea is that its designed to help medics perform their work that much more efficiently. You seem to ignore this idea and reduce it to your understanding of what a bandoleer is to you ... but this is a game man, in a fantasy world. Climb down from your high horse and level with it.

2) I do not fail to acknowledge that a ruling as you interpret this to be would happen in isolation, but you fail to grasp a more fluid, dynamic and creative way of thinking about it. Because, since the bandoleer is special (which you fail to understand is the whole point, increase the cost to 10,000 is it special enough now?) and different from your normal extra reloads bandoleer, there is no demand for holsters to provide the same bonus. I know it must be hard to grasp for some reason, but its not really. If you think about it and unlearn what you have learned.

3) D'uh ... what? Good to know that you have the authority to define, determine and exclude from the star wars universe that which you do not like or understand ... also, a simple attachment in this game and you pistol gains the innate talent quick draw, it costs you like 25 or 50 credits or so... how is this any different? It costs cash, it is limited to a certain type of equipment (like the attachment is limited to that weapon) and it also decreases the amount of 0 encumbrance (incidental) items that equates 1 encumbrance a lot, from 20 neatly stored in some way (or 10 if loosely carried) to 5 for 1 encumbrance. Of course you could be more generous, but hey, you don't have to. Similarly a pistol modified with the innate talent also increases attack checks beyond short range.

Go with what works for your group.

Well said.

The games I've been in, we've been playing it as simply "one maneuver to draw and use" a stimpack. Maybe the exact RAW doesn't support that, but our group has found that it doesn't break the game to allow it either. Might break OverMatt's mind and stance on the rules, but since he's not in our group, then nothing for him to worry about.

Then again, the number of times that a character has had to use a stimpack during the middle of combat have been fairly limited, as most folks tend to wait until after the fight is over to start worrying about the healing.

Maybe we glossed over the part in the rules that pointed out retrieving and using a stimpack as being one maneuver. We've been playing it as 1 maneuver to retrieve it from your pack, then an action to use it on yourself or someone you are engaged with (I can't see administering a first aid 'injection,' even if it is a self-contained spring-loaded needle, as being any easier than say, pulling a trigger on a blaster, or swinging a vibro-axe). So basically, you give up a combat action to heal yourself (or a fellow PC). Take a strain if you need an additional maneuver to duck into cover or disengage from an opponent in the same turn to make sure you are out of immediate danger while healing.

Is that too harsh?

Maybe we glossed over the part in the rules that pointed out retrieving and using a stimpack as being one maneuver. We've been playing it as 1 maneuver to retrieve it from your pack, then an action to use it on yourself or someone you are engaged with (I can't see administering a first aid 'injection,' even if it is a self-contained spring-loaded needle, as being any easier than say, pulling a trigger on a blaster, or swinging a vibro-axe). So basically, you give up a combat action to heal yourself (or a fellow PC). Take a strain if you need an additional maneuver to duck into cover or disengage from an opponent in the same turn to make sure you are out of immediate danger while healing.

Is that too harsh?

Well, in the case of a stimpack, you're applying it to a willing target, one that's not going to try and avoid your efforts they way they would try to avoid getting shot by a blaster or hit with a vibro-ax. So per the apparent RAW, having the use of a stimpack require the user's Action is a bit harsh, particularly if you're also requiring them to spend a maneuver to retrieve the stimpack as well.

Maybe we glossed over the part in the rules that pointed out retrieving and using a stimpack as being one maneuver. We've been playing it as 1 maneuver to retrieve it from your pack, then an action to use it on yourself or someone you are engaged with (I can't see administering a first aid 'injection,' even if it is a self-contained spring-loaded needle, as being any easier than say, pulling a trigger on a blaster, or swinging a vibro-axe). So basically, you give up a combat action to heal yourself (or a fellow PC). Take a strain if you need an additional maneuver to duck into cover or disengage from an opponent in the same turn to make sure you are out of immediate danger while healing.

Is that too harsh?

Well, in the case of a stimpack, you're applying it to a willing target, one that's not going to try and avoid your efforts they way they would try to avoid getting shot by a blaster or hit with a vibro-ax. So per the apparent RAW, having the use of a stimpack require the user's Action is a bit harsh, particularly if you're also requiring them to spend a maneuver to retrieve the stimpack as well.

Agreed. The text for the stimpack does state that using one requires a maneuver. Furthermore, you have the rule of thumb that 1 roll = 1 action = about a minute. The stimpack is a quick prick and go, no roll required, leaving you an action for a skill check in the same round.

Maybe we glossed over the part in the rules that pointed out retrieving and using a stimpack as being one maneuver. We've been playing it as 1 maneuver to retrieve it from your pack, then an action to use it on yourself or someone you are engaged with (I can't see administering a first aid 'injection,' even if it is a self-contained spring-loaded needle, as being any easier than say, pulling a trigger on a blaster, or swinging a vibro-axe). So basically, you give up a combat action to heal yourself (or a fellow PC). Take a strain if you need an additional maneuver to duck into cover or disengage from an opponent in the same turn to make sure you are out of immediate danger while healing.

Is that too harsh?

Well, in the case of a stimpack, you're applying it to a willing target, one that's not going to try and avoid your efforts they way they would try to avoid getting shot by a blaster or hit with a vibro-ax. So per the apparent RAW, having the use of a stimpack require the user's Action is a bit harsh, particularly if you're also requiring them to spend a maneuver to retrieve the stimpack as well.

Agreed. The text for the stimpack does state that using one requires a maneuver. Furthermore, you have the rule of thumb that 1 roll = 1 action = about a minute. The stimpack is a quick prick and go, no roll required, leaving you an action for a skill check in the same round.

Using a handheld comlink requires even less time investment, but it still takes a maneuver to take it out of your pocket/off of a belt/ready it before it can be used.

I may just skip the whole thing and replace stim-packs with healing surges.

Much as I don't love 4E, I also don't remember seeing Kenobi or Skywalker shooting up to get through a fight.

I may just skip the whole thing and replace stim-packs with healing surges.

Much as I don't love 4E, I also don't remember seeing Kenobi or Skywalker shooting up to get through a fight.

Stimpacks don't really scale well anyways. After a few hundred XP, it's quite likely to have taken enough Toughened to have Wound Thresholds of 30+. Strain Thresholds will usually be well below that since Grit is only half as effective, so taking people out will usually be much faster with Stun.

How many maneuvers does it take to use a valium after reading the little war in this thread?

Answer: TOO MANY!

This is one of those questions that cuts to the heart of one's play-style.

Are you in a group that tracks minutiae of equipment or walks into combat with a blaster in one hand, and a comlink or stimpack in the other on the off-chance that you need it? Then it's 2 maneuvers.

Are you in a group that flows from event to event, blowing over unimportant details in pursuit of the greater narrative? Then it's 1 maneuver.

I've had fun playing both ways. RAW apparently has two versions of how it works (not the first time), but more importantly it's whatever makes the game work for your group.

Of course, the Quickdraw talent would make drawing a stimpack an Incidental. So allowing one to be drawn and used in one maneuver does sort of decrease the value of Quickdraw, since stimpacks is one of the items most commonly drawn in a combat situation.

Quickdraw requires that the item is in an easily accessible location, so a stimpack in a backpack or shoulder bag would not benefit from QD. This requirement would apply to any kind of weapon or equipment that is stowed in a location especially one that reduces it's ENC (with I suppose the exception of a utility belt or bandoleer).

So we ruled it's a maneuver to get it and one to use it, just as it would for any other weapon or piece of equipment. Quickdraw would reduce it to a single maneuver but only if the Stimpack was in an easily accessible location as described in the Talent. To allow it to be only one maneuver would be to negate the benefit of taking a Talent like Quickdraw.

In fact this is a good argument for not allowing/hand waving/house ruling anything in the RAW that already has a Specialization or Talent that grants the action or effect. It's unfair to those PCs that spend the EXP on those Specializations or Talents to allow every PC the same ability for nothing.

Still very new to this game, and just had a few questions about encounters and using a stimpack. When exactly does an encounter end, when the last enemy falls? Or when the PC's/GM decide? I'm just curious as of the use of stimpacks. Can you use them when not in combat to heal? Or must they be used when fighting only. And do you just use a medicine check to see if it is successful out of combat as well as in? I know there is a higher difficulty check when trying to use one on yourself. Just not sure exactly when you can use them.

I like the model of encounter that the Biginner's Box lays out. Each scene in that adventure is an encounter.

Hiding out in the cantina is an encounter.

Going to the junk shop and acquiring a part for the ship is an encounter.

unlocking the dock clamps is an encounter

dispatching with the ship's former owner is an encounter.

you get the point.

In 4E, an encounter was a single instance of combat or a skill challenge, I like the thought that an encounter is a nebulous amount of time in which the players must achieve a single goal.

Yes it's vague, but so is a lot of stuff in the EotE core rules.

The encounter is over when the GM says so generally, either when the scene/set piece changes or the threats are dealt with.

Yeah, my encounter time in 4E wasn't much different than here. Just because the players killed all the goblins in the guard room didn't mean the rest of the goblin reinforcements weren't moving in. As stated above, an encounter is over when the GM says it's over

Well except that same section also implies that retrieving extra ammo and reloading your weapon is also a single maneuver, so I don't see why a stimpack would be different.

This game is much more about narrative flair and fluid combat rounds, not the "economy of actions" embodied by d20.

Yes put generally you carry ammo on your belt not in a pack, that is why I think its one maneuver. If a player said they were going throw a pack for ammo I make that cost 2 maneuvers too.

Plus, I don't think you just inject it anywhere. I envision it as taking a moment to move clothes and armor aside (as close to the wound site as possible) and then injecting it into a vein. I mean, it takes a maneuver to draw your blaster from the holster that is designed to be drawn quickly.