It wasn't a nightmare player, but he was the worst player I've ever seen at staying alive.

Back many years ago back in college, the first game we played of that group, the players had run afoul of a Imperial Spacetrooper transport (a ship, in case you are unfamiliar with them, that's comprised of a half dozen man-size airlocks for easy deploying of the Spacetroopers). 95% of the personnel is deployed assaulting another ship, leaving Danny-of-the-Week (as we were prone to calling his characters) and one other player to sneak about the nearly deserted ship.

When they heard voices coming their way from down a hall of doors (AKA the spacetrooper airlocks), Danny-of-the-Week decided to hide in one of said airlocks - the airlock that was open to space. "It's locked", I said, "You cant open it" - which he took to mean in all seriousness 'this must be an awesome hiding place!' and started doing his damnedest to open the door. He started slicing the lock, bypassing safeties and every warning sign that I was throwing up saying that this was indeed a bad idea. He just wouldn't take the hint.

Fine. You open the door. There's nothing on the other side. Literally, nothing.

That was death number 1. From that point on, once a week like clockwork, Danny-of-the-Week would find a stupid way to die. Once he stuck his face - on purpose - in a facehugger-ish egg during a game I was shamelessly ripping off from Alien (after they full well knew what this creature would do), One of the other players (a very protective wookiee) threw him from a speeder after he tried . . . ahem, aggressive sexual advances with a lady (not that she needed the Wookiee's protection - she was a marine and a Jedi and fully capable of kicking his ass on her own). One time, he hid in a clearly marked barrel of toxic waste.

Thing is, he wasn't clever enough to be trolling us - this was all just his personal playing style. He was honestly trying, but he was just that clueless. It wasn't anything I was doing as a GM, all those character deaths were all on his astoundingly bad choices.

Holy crap. I remember you talking about this way, way back on the Star Wars email list back when WEG's Star Wars RPG was still in print. Personally, I loved your story about when "Danny-of-the-week" mouthed off to Jabba the Hutt and the rest of the players scrambled to get out of the way of the trap door.

What is it with Jedi PCs and their insistence to slice up everything they see?

I had a feeling that allowing this player to join the game was a mistake, but after a really successful stint with my current group, we voted to allow a friend of ours into the group. This is a guy we've known really well for 4 years and heard through another friend of ours how pissed off he was at us for not allowing him into the group to begin with. He's always been a little difficult to deal with during Pathfinder campaigns, a power gamer who constantly wanted to be the centre of attention in games by the GM's NPCs. The kind of guy who ruined MtG for my group because he spent £400 online for an insane deck that soured our experience with it.

I gave up and called it a night since no one was in the mood to play the game, one person left early because he couldn't stand being in the same room as his former friend. The others felt bad about giving the Jedi PC the benefit of the doubt for the session.

The game was ruined, but after contacting everyone we agreed to try again next week without the Jedi character, just relax and try and have the same fun we were having as a group now that the other guy was once more out of the group. I'm now very nervous about allowing anyone else into the group as I've had some interest from other people I know (who I know wouldn't derail the game and cause so much drama) after hearing my friends talk about their experiences with the system.

I've been reassured multiple times that I'm a good GM for this game, it was just our friend being a jackass. I probably didn't explain any of that very well, but the experience almost soured me away from RPGs completely.

how old are you guys? Sounds like something a baby does when they don't get their way.

What is it with Jedi PCs and their insistence to slice up everything they see?

Yadda, Yadda, Yadda....

I've been reassured multiple times that I'm a good GM for this game, it was just our friend being a jackass. I probably didn't explain any of that very well, but the experience almost soured me away from RPGs completely.

You Sir, have described every person I have ever had ask to play a jedi. Not the actual player, but the jedi they are playing. For some insane reason NOBODY seems to be able to play one correctly, and all of them are quick to pop out the glow stick even in areas that it means instant death. This has been in every iteration of the game from WEG 1st to SAGA.

I was so glad there were no jedi in EtoE. Just the idea of a PC jedi leaves a sour taste. I know there are people out there that can play them correctly, but they don't reside within 300 miles of anywhere I have ever lived (eight different states).

I praise Thor, Zeus, and Mickey Mouse daily, that my current crew has no desire to play force users.

On that note, why on earth would you give a starting character a glow stick? Don't take that wrong, but that's the most powerful weapon in the game.

I've got a nightmare game that eventually wound up in the exact same state. It's not Star Wars, mind you, but Cyberpunk 2020. It was still pretty WTF tho.

So here it is, about 1991 or thereabouts. The Cyberpunk craze is in full swing and one of the players at the table bought the system and wanted the rest of us to give it a spin. Oh, sure - what the hell. The WEG Star Wars was getting a bit stale, so we thought a break would do us good.

We gathered one game night to build characters - a VERY long and complicated process. We wind up with your usual assortment of Street Samurai, Slicers, Net Runners, Reporters and whatnot. Me and one other person (who always played very Paladin like Jedi in D6) decided to play a pair of cops. Hey, an automatic story connection! It'll make meeting up with the party much easier!

The next week we gather to begin the game proper, where the GM starts everyone out in the typical You All Meet at a Nightclub when me and my partner roll into said night club, approaching the table with the rest of the party. I figure we'll shake down the players a bit, posture and puff upt and everyone can get on with the adventure. That's when my partner asks the GM:

"So, do they have any criminal records?"

"Um, yeah. Duh - it's cyberpunk"

"Great! I pull my gun and shout 'you're all under arrest!'"

. . . .

"Wait - what?"

Everyone else in the party instantly pulls their weapons. Meanwhile, I'm very quickly backing away going "I don't know this guy!" as the rest of the party guns down the two cops. The rest of the night degenerated into an argument between the Only Lawful Cop in Town and the GM about how he had a helmet on and the desert eagle shouldn't have done as much damage as it did. We never did play again.

So, 6 hours of prep time, 30 seconds of play time. Shortest campaign ever. . . .

Holy crap. I remember you talking about this way, way back on the Star Wars email list back when WEG's Star Wars RPG was still in print. Personally, I loved your story about when "Danny-of-the-week" mouthed off to Jabba the Hutt and the rest of the players scrambled to get out of the way of the trap door.

Oh my god! I'd forgotten all about Danny-of-the-week mouthing off to Jabba! Now THAT was funny! Man, I wish I still had those emails archived. . . .

Someone on thiis forum gave me the idea of pkaying a force skilled doctor. I'm already the doctor. But taking a force career would be fun if I aimed it at enhancing my doctoring.. My character is a healer, not a jedi. I don't even want a light saber! My GM already approved it so I'm saving my points...

I think I can play it right... But I'll keep my eyes on this thread to see if anyone in my group posts any problem player messages about me just in case!!

Someone on thiis forum gave me the idea of pkaying a force skilled doctor. I'm already the doctor. But taking a force career would be fun if I aimed it at enhancing my doctoring.. My character is a healer, not a jedi. I don't even want a light saber! My GM already approved it so I'm saving my points...

I think I can play it right... But I'll keep my eyes on this thread to see if anyone in my group posts any problem player messages about me just in case!!

I don't think anyone here is saying you shouldn't play a force sensitive. It's more about the people who insist at character creation in a time where there is no Jedi to be playing a Jedi. The real kind with a lightsaber and Jedi robes and Jedi temple training, however usually lacking the sense and pacifism of most Jedi we see in the movies.

The force sensitive doctor idea is awesome, I hope you have fun with it. Plus your playing with family, and no body can keep you on the straight and narrow better then family. They aren't unafraid to tell you when your acting up.

Someone on thiis forum gave me the idea of pkaying a force skilled doctor. I'm already the doctor. But taking a force career would be fun if I aimed it at enhancing my doctoring.. My character is a healer, not a jedi. I don't even want a light saber! My GM already approved it so I'm saving my points...

I think I can play it right... But I'll keep my eyes on this thread to see if anyone in my group posts any problem player messages about me just in case!!

Someone somewhere on these boards put it well: If you want to play a Jedi, you must be willing to play one with no powers. Kind of like if you want to be a Buddhist, it doesn't make you a master of Shaolin Kung Fu. I think you're on the right track.

Also, don't be too unnerved by the horror stories. Sooner or later there will be some drama, but most of it is much easier to deal with. I've had plenty of weird players and GM's, but most problems were easy enough to ignore. We have a very religious friend who was pretty put-off when we tried an "evil" campaign, but we talked it out like adults and abandoned it after one session. That's about as unpleasant as it's gotten.

Re: Jedi PCs and "lightsaber syndrome"

There's a sidebar in the WotC RCR supplement "Power of the Jedi," one that cuts right to the heart of the matter... most people that are eager to play Jedi instead wind-up playing "thugs with lightsabers and quasi-mystical powers." In short, all they see are the cool powers and abilities that Jedi can have access to, and skip over the role-playing factors. it gets even worse if the GM isn't willing to enforce (or simply doesn't grasp) the rules on assigning Dark Side points for when those Force-boosted thugs go over the line. Yes, there's the glaring obvious in regards to purely Dark Side powers, but I've seen tables where the GM should have been handing out DSPs like they were antacids at a chili-eating contest... but weren't, thus allowing the so-called "Jedi" PCs to run rampant over his game.

As The Grand Falloon mentioned, the core of that sidebar was to ask the player "take away the powers and the lightsaber, and would you still be willing to play a Jedi?" If the answer is no, then don't let that person play a Jedi, pure and simple. I've made frequent use of that question, and it's weeded out some problem characters long before they hit the table.

You'd need to use the internet wayback machine, but WotC's Jedi Counseling 111 had some good suggestions on preventing PCs from abusing the atonement rules, but also on when to clarify if an action was worth a Dark Side point. While FFG's system doesn't currently have any sort of karma meter, it's still a handy set of guidelines to determine if a course of action was indeed an act of the dark side. For a character playing a Force-user that wants to act in line with the principles of the Jedi Order, it's a handy checklist to have.

There's also the adage "What would Obi-Wan do?" as for the most part, Obi-Wan is a pretty sterling example of how a Jedi should act. He's got his flaws to be sure, but in general he walks the walk and talks the talk when it comes to how a true Jedi should generally act. In the films, the only really "dark" thing he does is leaving Anakin to die a slow, painful death on Mustafar, and that's likely due to the feelings of betrayal that Obi-Wan's suffering; the person he cared most about in the galaxy is responsible for destroying pretty much everything else in Obi-Wan's life. As the excellent Revenge of the Sith novelization put it, killing Anakin right then and there might have been an act of mercy, but Obi-Wan wasn't feeling very merciful right then, and instead chose to leave Vader's fate to the Force. There's his "point of view" lie to Luke, but I get the feeling that after nearly two decades, it was a half-truth that Obi-Wan himself was convinced of, seeing Anakin and Vader as two separate people that just happened to share the same body.

Re: Jedi PCs and "lightsaber syndrome"

Yes, there's the glaring obvious in regards to purely Dark Side powers, but I've seen tables where the GM should have been handing out DSPs like they were antacids at a chili-eating contest... but weren't, thus allowing the so-called "Jedi" PCs to run rampant over his game.

Trouble is those GMs likely weren't handing out the DSPs because they lacked the strength or confidence to do so (or to face the torrent of abuse as to why the precious Pseudo-Jedi was being abused/restricted) - and it was likely the same lack of strength / moral fortitude / confidence that allowed the Pseudo-Jedi player to join the party. . .

Most of the instances of ruinous self-centred jerk character/players devolve into that Catch 22 from what I'm reading above, which is not to say it's the GMs fault, especially if new to the art but it does point out one of the frequently overlooked factors of being a good GM - you have to take charge, you have to manage the table and the players and that can be tough for many people. And made tougher if you're struggling for player numbers.

Someone on thiis forum gave me the idea of pkaying a force skilled doctor. I'm already the doctor. But taking a force career would be fun if I aimed it at enhancing my doctoring.. My character is a healer, not a jedi. I don't even want a light saber! My GM already approved it so I'm saving my points...

I think I can play it right... But I'll keep my eyes on this thread to see if anyone in my group posts any problem player messages about me just in case!!

I really like this idea! Just dont go all Dr. Mengele on us...

As for FSE, I am playing a Gand, Bounty Hunter Survivalist / FSE. That is all the farther I will probably go with the force. I intend to use the force powers to help track a mark after locating them via other methods. I like the idea of being just a "hair" faster then others, hard to sneak up on and whatnot. As far as the move power, I just want to be able to manipulate doors and consoles from a distance. Nothing big.

I have no desire to play a Jedi. It just seems "wrong" to some extent.

I have no real nightmare experiences to be honest and I feel lucky I don't.

The worst experience I have had in RPG's was a DM who had a really, really bad stutter and had ADD at the same time. It took him forever to tell us something but he was very excited doing it. That lasted two sessions before I decided that that group would never be for me.

The other problem was the smartphone guy. This guy was on Facebook while playing, was apping with others during combat and basically was surfing the web all while I tried to GM a session... When asked to leave the phone out of the games he got upset, called me a grandpa and left...

My biggest issue with my games now is this one player who is actually really nice and thoughtful in his games. However, he is so thoughtful he literally takes ages to do anything and stalls the party in their decissions. At times it feels like I'm in a meeting more than I am leading a game. I decided to have a talk with him about it soon.

On the whole my RP experiences have been fairly positive. As long as one understands the reasons for roleplaying, it's not that bad of a hobby. Like many forms of entertainment it's a form of escapisim - possibly the purist /most extreme form there is. Granted there are other reasons and desires involved, but I think that escapism is probably one of the largest. If this is true then a study of the reasons why any given individual is "escaping" can give someone an indication of they type of player/character they will become.

Obviously this is an over simplification, but I think most of you can see where I'm coming from. I love this hobby! I love the great stories, memories, epic fails and smashing triumphs that come with it. Heck, I've learned a lot more about myself just by analyzing my characters and their actions.

It just makes me sad to see players that use it to compensate for their own feelings of powerlessness and/or lack of accomplishment.

I really like this idea! Just dont go all Dr. Mengele on us...

I had to use google to figure out what this was all about. Now that I am through barfing, I can guarantee that won't happen.

Yuck.

Re: Jedi PCs and "lightsaber syndrome"

Yes, there's the glaring obvious in regards to purely Dark Side powers, but I've seen tables where the GM should have been handing out DSPs like they were antacids at a chili-eating contest... but weren't, thus allowing the so-called "Jedi" PCs to run rampant over his game.

Trouble is those GMs likely weren't handing out the DSPs because they lacked the strength or confidence to do so (or to face the torrent of abuse as to why the precious Pseudo-Jedi was being abused/restricted) - and it was likely the same lack of strength / moral fortitude / confidence that allowed the Pseudo-Jedi player to join the party. . .

Most of the instances of ruinous self-centred jerk character/players devolve into that Catch 22 from what I'm reading above, which is not to say it's the GMs fault, especially if new to the art but it does point out one of the frequently overlooked factors of being a good GM - you have to take charge, you have to manage the table and the players and that can be tough for many people. And made tougher if you're struggling for player numbers.

I preemptively handled the 'why are you being mean to my Jedi' issue pretty simply back when I was running Saga games. I told my players that I hand out DSPs like candy. Kill an innocent or helpless sapient? That's a DSP. Do anything that someone at the table go, "Dude! Really?! That's just evil!", get a DSP. If you use the force to directly cause physical harm to a sapient being, you're going to get a DSP. If you use a power with the Dark Side descriptor, you're going to get a DSP. If I think you're using your powers to take the 'easy path' too often (*my* judgement call), you're going to start getting DSPs for it. I also pointed out to them that those conditions were *not* mutually exclusive. Argue about it during the game, you'll get a bonus which sticks around even if you convince me otherwise after the session is over.

To top it off, I also make it clear that the same rules apply to *all* characters. And replacement characters start 2 levels below the original. (That's just a long-standing tradition with me and D20 games, but it seems to work out with my groups.)

Use a dark-side force power to hurt 2 sapient beings? That's 3 DSP. Did it for the Nth time because it's faster and easier than trying to talk your way out of a problem you got yourself into? That makes it 4. Did it by flinging an unconscious enemy or innocent bystander at the target? That's 5.

Problem characters quickly fall to the Dark Side, and become NPCs. Characters who 'flirt' with the Dark Side really have to pay attention, because even a character with a Wisdom of 20 can fall pretty danged quickly if he gets carried away. My 'worst' player got as far as 8 DSPs before reigning himself in, and (as a nice bonus) dialed things back *dramatically*, and played up the whole repentance and atonement process.

Oh, look - a "Nightmare GM" story to go with the nightmare player stories.

Yeah, not a Jedi, then DSPs really don't mean anything. Though the acts might get one notoriety and that can be bad thing from an RP stand point.

Yeah, DSP's are only a threat when the player actually gives a ****. In the example I told waaaay back in page one, every time the player rolled dark side pips on the force dice his reaction was just to shrug and go 'eh' cuz he didn't really give a **** anyway. Had to get talked down by everyone else before he decided against using them.

On that topic though, other than the sidebar in the book what are good ways to encourage these kinds of nightmare players in this game to think twice about using dark side results since there is no immediate downside as far as the rulebook goes. I mean obviously there is the eventual twisting of ones morality and physical and mental corruption that goes along with repeated use but that's still a gradual process after all.

Yeah, DSP's are only a threat when the player actually gives a ****. In the example I told waaaay back in page one, every time the player rolled dark side pips on the force dice his reaction was just to shrug and go 'eh' cuz he didn't really give a **** anyway. Had to get talked down by everyone else before he decided against using them.

On that topic though, other than the sidebar in the book what are good ways to encourage these kinds of nightmare players in this game to think twice about using dark side results since there is no immediate downside as far as the rulebook goes. I mean obviously there is the eventual twisting of ones morality and physical and mental corruption that goes along with repeated use but that's still a gradual process after all.

The most recent episode of the Order 66 podcast, Episode 18, goes over various ways you could handle characters going to the Darkside. It's definitely worth checking out.

...there is no immediate downside as far as the rulebook goes.

The key phrase. I'm so glad there isn't. Having a mechanic for the Dark side defeats the purpose, it's something that should be handled in story. It's really no different from players that use their characters to run rampage through the world. If you as the GM don't want that, then let the "world" react like it actually would: use the public perception, injured relatives, and authorities to simply hunt them down and overwhelm them. If a Jedi player uses his powers for evil, some important Nemeses are going to take note.

Admitedly, this is the group that named their YT-1300 The Grundle

My group named theirs "The Rusted Turkey"

Although an NPC offered to de-rust the hull for 1,000 credits that they declined, and later on was able to have the NPC throw in the rust removal for favors. They then felt it wasn't a good idea and would have to rename the ship because it would no longer make sense.

Oh, look - a "Nightmare GM" story to go with the nightmare player stories.

Eh. Call it how you see it.

I mean, sure, it's harsh, but I decided on that system after watching too many 'Jedi' run rough-shod over games. The Dark Side is supposed to be seductive for it's quick power, but dangerous to flirt with. When I watch fellow players calculate how often they can use Force Lightning against non-combatants as a 'negotiation' tool and figure out that they can probably get away with doing it every 3 games or so based on XP progression and how often they get to boost a stat, I see a problem.

With my fix, it's not been a problem I've had in any games that I've *run*. And it's not like I spring it on them suddenly part way through the game. They go into the campaign knowing how it works. I've never had a complaint about it. (And I've never had to use the 'bonus DSP' for arguing about it during play, either. That rule is there to prevent those arguments from bogging down the game. I've seen *that* happen in games I've played as well, almost as often as arguments about what the rules 'really mean'.)

My group named theirs "The Rusted Turkey".

Our group's ship got its name like this:

Bounty Hunter: what's your ship called?

Smuggler: Well... it's not all that fast. Or durable. Or maneuverable. So it's definitely not the Millenium Falcon.

Bounty Hunter: Sounds closer to a Clay Pigeon...

Admitedly, this is the group that named their YT-1300 The Grundle

My group named theirs "The Rusted Turkey"

Although an NPC offered to de-rust the hull for 1,000 credits that they declined, and later on was able to have the NPC throw in the rust removal for favors. They then felt it wasn't a good idea and would have to rename the ship because it would no longer make sense.

Meh, repaint the hull to look like it has rust patches and leave the name be Good way to disguise the quality of the ship if the players add upgrades and such.

When I watch fellow players calculate how often they can use Force Lightning against non-combatants as a 'negotiation' tool and figure out that they can probably get away with doing it every 3 games or so based on XP progression and how often they get to boost a stat, I see a problem.

No kidding. Just the act of doing the calculating means they're really playing Sith. FWIW, I think your rules are fine, at least you're clear about them up front.