In another thread, it was discussed that it is unfair, that weapons with a RoF under 1 in fact have a harder time aiming than the ones with 1+; this is especially odd with weapons like sniper rifles...

So, why not include into aiming, that it gives an additional +5 for each step the used weapons RoF is below 1 (not cumulative though) ?

1/2: +5, if aiming in the same turn

1/3: +10 if aiming in the same turn

This could help these weapons a little and would stand for the additional time you have during using that weapon to focus on your target.

Honestly, while I do like the sentiment, this seems like a messy way to fix the issue. I don't see what advantages this has over simply dialing those RoFs up to 1 and including a single shot quality.

Because weapons with RoF 1/2 are not single shot. They can be shot twice - an option I would not like to have changed.

To be honest, I seem to be one the few who really likes it that some weapons take some time to fire - I think it feels especially good with sniper weapons and shotguns.

Well by the same merit that you can limit a weapon using single shot, you can easily make a quality which limits you to two shots per turn, or three.

Just make one quality, say, Slow (X), where X is the number of shots you can fire off per round using that weapon.

Ultimately I think the issue is simple; if you can use the time to aim, why can't you logically use it to do something else? It's not like pulling the trigger takes long.

Because you need to use the time to hold your weapon onto the target, which even might be a moving one.

The RoF below 1 could have several meanings:

- a long time it needs to fire (bow)

- a loading time to charge up (plasma weapons)

- the time it needs to be effectively calibrated onto the target (sniper weapons)

...

It is not always the case that pulling the trigger takes so long - thats quite a too simplified thinking.

As a person who likes abstraction, this should be a thing you favour though ;D

In my eyes, aiming is exactly what represents that time. Also, when the plasma gun is charging, why can't you do other things? Bows are the only example I can see as being justified here.

What about flamers ?

They would spend a longer duration spitting out fuel than other weapons spend spitting out a single round.

Flamers too, yeah, that's a fair point.

Honestly, while I do like the sentiment, this seems like a messy way to fix the issue. I don't see what advantages this has over simply dialing those RoFs up to 1 and including a single shot quality.

Im all for this! Its simple which the devs seems to like a lot and its much better than what we have now. Weapons that are neither very accurate or fast can of course remain 1/2, like bows/flamers previously mentioned. I would even consider the flamer a candidate for 1/3 considering the massive cone its covering.

Sniper rifles by the way do not need extra calibration to be fired, good shots tend to aim a lot though which could include calibrating your sight: ie AP spent for aiming.

Slow (x) trait replacing one shot is also realy good.

Another route is to raise the bonus of accurate, say to +30 to compensate for the slow RoA.

I think the advantage of flamers having an RoF of 1/2 is that it lets you 'cook' the target by dedicating the whole turn to firing, which is a nice option, especially now that flame stacks.

What about flamers ? They would spend a longer duration spitting out fuel than other weapons spend spitting out a single round.

With flamers I'd say the damage is meant like a whole rounds worth of fire.

As flamers damage became quite good, I think this is ok for them.

Thing with snper rifles is - they got a lot of bonus integrated into their stats now, that wasnt before.

Therefore they need a RoF below 1 to fix their use on slow, but well placed fire.

If you do not do that, this weapon will be exploited as deadly rifle for every situation, be it assaulting a house or being used one-handed with gloves in melee.

Low RoFs are for different reasons a good way to balance out weapons, and it can be explained by different reasons as mentioned before.

Btw - you cant do anything else while holding the upcharging plasmaweapon, as you have to hold it tight unto the target. Tjats not yet a special aim action, but just the attention to keep the weapon calm and on target at all.

Maybe you even have to push several buttons in the correct order to calibrate its energy flow to the right range.

After all, it is a mysterious old Weapon...

IF you changed the RoF all to one, even if adding a singleshot trait, this would lead to awful exploits.

Get out of full cover - aim (balances out unbraced with bulging biceps) - fire with my singleshot sniper rifle - go back into full cover.

And thats just one of the many many exploits this would lead towards.

A sniper rifle has three bullets in it, and takes a turn and a half to reload. I doubt it's going to turn into an all-purpose battle rifle.

Also, that's not an exploit, that's tactics. It can be done with all the higher RoF weapons anyway.

Going through the weapons with a ROF of less than one I can't see how anyone could justify it for bolt, SP or las weapons. Bullets and bolts clear the gun too quickly to be directly perceived by a human, and a las shot is even faster. As for the 'accurate' weapons, they should be designed to encourage people to use the aim action for one accurate shot. Not forced to spend some time lining up a shot that is less accurate than a 1AP autogun burst.

Melta: Reading the description makes me think of a more powerful plasma cutter. Which means they spend a duration spraying out their fuel, not firing a discrete bullet. So 1/2 AP makes sense. Though I could be wrong, and they do have single shot.

Plasma: <1 ROF might work, or it might not. I can't say.

Flamer: Fuel takes some time to come out in quantities sufficient to properly burn things. Especially if you want to cover a 30 degree arc with it. <1 ROF works.

Primitive weapons: I can easily see someone needing some time to draw the bow or wind up the bolas for a throw.

On an unrelated note, why does the crossbow have single shot ?

It only can be loaded with one bolt at a time. Even if you reduce the reload time, you'd still need to make two attack actions to fire it twice.

Launchers: If a crossbow bolt fires fast enough to count as ROF 1, then something fired out of a grenade launcher should do the same.

Needler: The sliver is propelled by a laser beam. For it to justify it's 1/2 ROF, the sliver needs to be rather slow. But if it's that slow, then no human is steady enough to keep the laser on the sliver for the duration, and the sliver will not reach the target.

Webber: The heavy webber could justify its 1/3 ROF if it fires a spray of glue. But not if it fires a discrete blob.

Because weapons with RoF 1/2 are not single shot. They can be shot twice - an option I would not like to have changed.

Why not change the rule so that if a weapon has a ROF below 1, the first shot still only costs 1AP. The cost only applies to the second shot ?

Add in a special quality for things like the bolas or flamer where the first shot still costs multiple AP.

True about exploits Gaunt. That said Id go for a massive raise of the accurate bonus, but not based on RoA, just a flat raise.

Accurate should give a damage boost on called shots.

If you enable carrying over aim actions from one turn into the other, this would be a good thing, as long as the target does not go out of sight or you use another action or reaction before shoting.

Regarding SP, Boltpistols and Lasers:

I agree that the Bolt Pistols RoF should be set to 1, also the stub Revolver.

Shotguns and Sniper rifles should remain slow though - shotguns have the pumping step and a cool comment, which takes time

Snpers need this penalty to balance out their stats and prevent exploits.

Besides this, shotguns need some kind of buff in general.

I really don't see how Snipers would become unbalanced, at all.

Maybe you need some darksight goggles then ?

High damage and vengeanceful alone are good. Adding Pb Pen makes most armour useless. Adding a range of 400, why should I ever use a bolter when I would have a sniper rifle whose RoF would not be below 1 ? Besides maybe magazin size, which probably can be helped with some weapon modification.

And it is even reliable !

Ignoring the balancing factor of the reloads (which is fairly huge), and the fact it'd be made single shot, there's the matter that it's a heavy weapon. It reduces subtlety, and needs to be braced to be used efficiently.

Even for shotguns, even if you have to pump after a shot, there's little reason an already readied, loaded shotgun needs 2AP for its first shot. +5 on inferior-ROF weapons still comes down to half an aim, while a proper weapon could use full aim for the same AP value.

The ideas are appreciated, and not at all dumb or anything, but being but a slap-patch on a gaping wound in the combat/armoury sections, they'll just make it feel a little better... till it dies.

Weapons requiring more than 1AP to fire should have, without exception, a clearly defined reason. Either you're being f***ed up the bolter by a stasis field malfunction, warp effect or psyker power, or it's part of that weapon's special abilities - sustained beam with minimum duration [you can let go but you'll probably slice off your foot], long cycling time that in NO WAY prevents standard aiming or called shots during the slow-charge APs, charge-up times that let you do other stuff...

Overall none of these should actually be costing AP in and of themselves save for a sustained firing effect or the such, but rather "reserve" or "occupy" your AP usage in some fashion.

I do agree that not all weapons that currently have a RoF below 1 are justified.

I can very well life with flamers, plasma, grenades, Melta, Low-Tech & sniper rifles, where I aslo count the longlas somehow towards.

Shotgun & Handcannon can be argued. My feeling says it somehow fits, even if not necessary...its ok if the other stats fit, which they do at the handcannon, and dont yet at the shotgun.

I agree that Boltpistols, Stub Revolver and maybe needle weapons should get a second thought, if they shouldnt get RoF 1.

However, I still do not think that the mechanism itself is bad, just that a handfull of weapons need to be adjusted.

I must repeat my earlier sentiments from other threads, the Action Point system adds flexibility and granularity to combat, players can make real choices about whether they wish to be more accurate, more defensive, more mobile, etc. each round. Having certain weapons arbitrarily (and implausibly) take 5 seconds or more to fire (2AP+) eliminates much of the value of the AP system and reduces player/npc choice and flavour.

This is undesirable.

The same rate of attack limits can be imposed by a "Double Tap" quality or some such that limits weapons to firing twice per round as before but does not impose the unnecessary AP cost. Single shot will do for those weapons with a fire rate of 1/3 or 1/4.

Any other changes you wish to make to account for the small alterations in balance that result can easily be done elsewhere as needed. There is no need to depend on abusive AP costs to make plasma balanced, for example. Just change the numbers or the fire rate or whatnot.

On the subject of flamers, "cooking" a target through prolonged attacks could as easily be represented by the stacking burning effect attached to successful hits.

I always assumed that, for sniper rifles, the slow RoF was justified by the need to operate the bolt action; however, I also believe that sniper rifles should be changed to 1/2 RoF and Single Shot at least. Currently, it's impossible to Aim and perform a Called Shot with a sniper rifle, which seems dumb.

Were that true, or were the long las just slow charging, we'd be able to DO something - you don't lose your aim or bracing for operating the bolt or waiting for the 'flash ready' on your camera after all.

But by demanding an additional chunk of the turn WITHOUT this, what you effectively have is wasted, lost time. You're not aiming, you're not picking out targets, you're not bracing the weapon, nothing. You're just... losing your turn.

The idea that it takes 5 seconds to operate a bolt on a bolt action rifle is laughable, and there is certainly no game balance need for such a long delay. This is why I have already removed this terrible RoA mechanic from my game. I am super happy with the results. Single shot weapons no longer have an inaccuracy tax and called shots with single shot weapons are way more common.