Lets talk about unarmed combat.

This is something that is very neglected by the rules so far.

There is no penalty to attack enemies with melee weapons or pistols, as there was before (-20), which definitely should return to balance out unarmed against using weapons like knives.

Also, a lot of talents concerning unarmed combat disappeared: Unarmed Warrior & Master, Street Fighting, Wrestling, Pugilist...

I would feel much better if there was a Martial Arts Talent tree to include such talents and focus on unarmed combat. As we have characters like assassins, I think this would be a very good thing to have.

Finally, rules for grappling disappeared completely. I did not really like the old rules, but having NO rules is not really the solution to this problem.

Sometimes it is necessary to catch an enemy or to subdue him into custody. Grappling is ideal for this and should get matching rules.

With grapple you could make the target easier to be hit, make it lose AP and inflict fatigue until it breaks free with Strength or Acrobatics.

It would also be nice to have some rules included, to put manacles or similar on grappled targets, maybe with an opposed WS test. Would be good for Abitrators.

What are your thoughts ?

And i dont want to hear the word 'abstract' in this topic, not even once, or I will get out my bolter. ;D

I agree that the old grappling rules were undesirable, but that something is better than nothing and there really have to be grappling rules. Even if its as simple as some opposed checks or making unarmed attacks or imposing a condition or whatever.

I agree that we seem to be missing a lot of the unarmed/martial arts style talents and we could stand to have some of them come back. I would like to have unarmed combat be a legitimate choice for subtlety focused campaigns.

One thing that would contribute to this making sense would be some sort of auto-crit against unaware/helpless targets rule. Since crits kill even elites you would have to be careful to define the conditions for this (melee only might be one, since melee against unaware targets presupposes successful opposed skill tests). But having such a mechanic would totally allow a team of assassins of stealth focused acolytes to take out sentries silently when assaulting a compound or escaping a trap or assassinating a target or investigating a mansion or... whatever.

For such situations I feel that the RNG determined results and tension surrounds discovery, and the combat taking any time strains all credibility for a "stealthy takedown." The combat system is there for the back forth of a skirmish or showdown, but centering the tension on remaining hidden and not both making the stealth check and having a lascannon's worth of damage to reliably one shot the guy whose throat you slashed while he was sleeping seems unnecessarily destructive to that vision.

I would not mind seeing the grapple system, whatever it looks like, having several characteristics you can choose from. For example, an opposed test in which you are permitted to use agility, strength, or weapon skill depending upon what "style" of up close fighting your character knows/prefers. This would help level the playing field and make it much more likely that an acolyte would try and use their superior training to flip the hulking mutant over a railing or whatever rather than just automatically make grappling a strongman option.

Mechandendrites and multiple arms should totally provide bonuses to whatever system is established.

Good points you field! Really like your ideas.

An own unarmed talent tree incl. Grappling actions (like overwatch also became an own tree element) would be desireable.

The whole crit wound assassination thing is really a cool idea, to play silent subtle situations. I really hope something like that will come up.

I will have to third this idea. There should also be a "disarm" skill or talent as well. Unarmed fighting definitely lends to the grittiness of the setting.

It would give melee acolytes pause when they charge in just to get disarmed and beaten half to death on the ground especially by some huge muscled mutant.

3 guardians to overcome.

The assassin takes one out silently from behind, the other 2 guys are surprised.

The first one is killed outright with a killing strike of the Unarmed Master, the second one disarmed swiftly disarmed and killed with his own weapon.

Epic.

An unarmed tree could wait till a supplement. But the lack of grapple rules is a problem. There will be times when when players need to drag a hostile to somewhere else for interrogation. Which means taking him alive despite all their weapons designed for killing. Which means that the GM will have to create gapple rules in the middle of a session.

Also, non-deadly fights like brawling in a underhive pub could make good use of grappling rules.

I think even OW had grappling rules, a system that needs to take opponents alive much less than DH.

Some kind of improvement to unarmed combat, surprise take-downs, and prisoner taking would be great, but until then I figure that most of it can be handled narratively. The main exceptions would be the raw unarmed fighting, but that's also what's in the best shape right now (grappling aside).

No rule-substituting by narrative please. That can be done optional if one wants to.

But I think when buying a Rulebook, a lot of people expect rules.

I think a simple rule would be such:

Grappling is a 2 AP action that is an opposed strength/agility vs strength/agility (players choice) test.

If successful, the opponent gains the grappled condition and you gain the grappling condition. If you fail, your opponent may have you gain the grappled condition and himself gain the grappling condition.

Grappled

At the start of each turn while grappled, you must make the Grappling Action (2 AP) If this fails, you may not take any other actions this turn. If successful you lose the Grappled condition and may have your opponent gain it and you gain the grappling condition.

Grappling

You may end the grappling condition at any time. While grappling, you cannot use reactions. You may do any of the following for 2AP or for normal RoF cost by making an opposed S/A vs. S/A test (taking the place of any roll you would normally make). Other actions possible during grappling, such as special abilities, will be described as such.

Disarm

Unarmed Attack

Throw

Etc.

I don't have time to fill the whole thing out, but something like this may help. I hate how rules heavy and exception based this already is, though. I would be fine with just a generic "unarmed combat action" as a catch-all that costs 2 to do whatever and is based on strength. I dunno. This is way more complicated than it should be.

Still more elegant than the old rules I think. I really would not mind having close quarters/knives usable in a grapple, perhaps if you won your opposed test by three DoS or some such you can draw such a weapon and attack with your remaining 2 AP.

Would also make knives more usefull and other small weapons. In such a situation, you could even get to chose your hit location.

If not using a knife, you could inflict 1 fatigue unarmed.

There was already a grappling thread: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/87494-no-grappling-rules/

My own thoughts on the matter are pretty clearly laid out there, but to reiterate: the grappling subsystem is a complicated mess. We don't need a second system for unarmed melee combat. The unarmed talents from OW (or similar) should be folded into the Melee Talent tree, allowing unarmed attacks to inflict status effects or fatigue.

The Grappling/Grappled status are redundant. Unarmed combat should use the same rules as armed combat.

I agree that almost any grappling subsystem ends up being overcomplicated, but its kind of necessary in a way. Also, I don't think talents should be added for allowing people to run up and grab someone. That's a pretty universal ability, more so than swinging a sword or shooting a gun. The problem with just abstracting grappling is that it occurs in structured combat time and brings up a lot of questions (can I pick up and toss someone, can I immobilize someone, can I drag someone, can I bear hug someone, etc.). The answer to all of those questions is obviously "yes", but the problem is if you add a "how" to them. How do I grab someone? What do I roll? How many AP does it cost? How far can I throw someone? What does it mean if they're immobilized? Am I immobilized too? Yes, these questions can be decided by GM, but something as universally awesome as my mutated slabs of muscle guardsman warrior running up to an enemy psyker and grabbing him by the mouth and crushing it so he cannot speak the witch's lies anymore deserves to have some kind of support. Hell, even adding a few new actions would work:

Move/Throw 2 AP

Move/Throw an item/person you are engaged with X meters based on weight. Strength or opposed strength.

Immobilize 3 AP

Prevent someone from spending action points (per GM discretion). WS to grab, opposed S on players turn to use any AP. Lasts until beginning of next turn.

Knockdown (isn't this already included?)

Bear Hug

Make this a talent that lets you damage someone when using immobilize

I think that's pretty much a rudimentary grappling system in 2 actions and a talent. I can't think of any situations for grappling that wouldn't cover.

Completely different from the issues in original post, but still related to unarmed combat: In a system where the number of hits generally has a more detrimental effect than a single attack with high damage, doesn't giving unarmed strikes a Rate of Fire equal to someone's Agility Bonus seem a little crazy? For most starter characters, and human NPCs that gives them the same RoF as a Heavy Stubber.

I know this is a pretty extreme example, but in my last game one of the PCs was all but killed by an unarmed novice Thug after he landed a lucky hit and dealt five wounds in a single round.

I also think it should be reduced. Maybe later on there can be a Unarmed Talent tree where a talent increases unarmed RoF, but it should not be that high by default.

Agreed.

I'd add to my previous suggestion that immobilize counts as an attack action made with both hands. I'd also add another talent

Human Shield!

3 AP

Opposed S vs S/A test against an engaged opponent. Must be holding a light weapon. If successful, until the beginning of your next turn the first time the target attempts to spend 1 or more AP you may immediately inflict a critical wound to a location of your choice against the target as though you had rolled maximum damage with your weapon. The target may then spend AP as normal if able. If the target is a humanoid it provides cover to the body, legs, and non-weapon-holding arm equal to its toughness defense value.

I'd add to my previous suggestion that immobilize counts as an attack action made with both hands. I'd also add another talent

Human Shield!

3 AP

Opposed S vs S/A test against an engaged opponent. Must be holding a light weapon. If successful, until the beginning of your next turn the first time the target attempts to spend 1 or more AP you may immediately inflict a critical wound to a location of your choice against the target as though you had rolled maximum damage with your weapon. The target may then spend AP as normal if able. If the target is a humanoid it provides cover to the body, legs, and non-weapon-holding arm equal to its toughness defense value.

As I also proposed in my grapple topic, I am a big fan of any human-shield rule.

We had that situation quite sometimes in our games and I would love to have something official for that.

We had a quite rough headhunter who took every cover he could get - including civilians who were unlucky, or enemy cultist that were too close.