Why not just give surprised characters the dazed condition for the first round instead of this new -2AP work-around ? This would also weaken them a bit more.

Would also be better to avoid the initiative-penalty, as, after the first round, the surprise effect should disappear.

Also, Dazed condition should add: "Dazed characters are easier to hit, therefore attackers get +10 for attacks against dazed characters".

Furthermore, stunned condition should be 20 easier to hit.

So attacks against:

> Dazed: +10

> Stunned: +20

> Helpless: +30

It could also be interesting to let surprised character make a Willpower Test.

If they pass, they are Dazed in the first round, if they fail, they are stunned in the first and Dazed in the second round.

If you get to surprise your enemy (which usually needs good planing and a passed opposed test), the effect should be felt in my oppinion.

Nothing dealier than a good ambush...

Currently it is a joke to get surprised, if your init is high.

Realistically human reaction times are generally below 0.3 seconds, even when fairly intoxicated. That's not intended as criticism, just offered as context.

Personally I like the idea of AP loss, but not for evasion combat actions. I also like the idea of test modifiers, but I'd rather see negative mods to a surprised target's evasion combat actions than positive mods on an ambusher's attack combat actions.

Helpless targets shouldn't involve testing, I think.

Realistically human reaction times are generally below 0.3 seconds, even when fairly intoxicated. That's not intended as criticism, just offered as context.

[...]

Sheer "reaction time" isn't really what Surprise and Surprise Rounds are about, though. It's about ascertaining where shots are coming from, who is attacking, what is going on, and then reacting appropriately based on the combined input.

I agree entirely with GauntZero, though. And whether Helpless targets should involve tests or not depends on how helpless they are, imo. At least at range, Helpless targets could warrant a test. In melee, perhaps attacks against helpless targets should be doubled, if any test at all...?

Realistically human reaction times are generally below 0.3 seconds, even when fairly intoxicated. That's not intended as criticism, just offered as context.

[...]

Sheer "reaction time" isn't really what Surprise and Surprise Rounds are about, though. It's about ascertaining where shots are coming from, who is attacking, what is going on, and then reacting appropriately based on the combined input.

I agree entirely with GauntZero, though. And whether Helpless targets should involve tests or not depends on how helpless they are, imo. At least at range, Helpless targets could warrant a test. In melee, perhaps attacks against helpless targets should be doubled, if any test at all...?

As I understand it, surprise is intended as the period of time between actor(s) finding themselves in a situation, and being able to respond to it in an organised manner. Reaction time, by comparison, is the time between becoming aware of an event, and physically reacting to it.

In the reaction time period you're basically screwed. Anything that happens faster than your reaction time, happens so fast you cannot do anything about it.

In the subsequent "oh god what's happening" period, you're not pro-active. Nobody is. You're purely reactive, trying to deflect blows, backing away, scrambling for cover, that sort of thing.

That's why I think loss of what used to be called Actions is a very good idea, while loss of what used to be called Reactions is a bad one. And why I think the ambusher shouldn't get any particular modifiers, but that the surprised target should get negative modifiers to Evasion actions.

The surprised target is uncoordinated, scrambling to get his or her bearings. To the attacker, however, the target isn't particularly harder or easier to hit when surprised than at any other time.

Caving someone's skull in from behind with a baseball bad isn't easier just because the would-be victim doesn't see it coming. But if the victim doesn't see it coming, there's a much better chance it can't successfully dodge the blow, or even try to dodge it should the attacker be very-very stealthy.

You're quite right of course that hitting a helpless target at, say, extreme range with a sniper rifle, probably isn't significantly easier than hitting one that's just standing still.

Isn't a penalty to Evade basically the same thing as a bonus to the attack roll?

Isn't a penalty to Evade basically the same thing as a bonus to the attack roll?

Not exactly. A to-hit bonus most strongly benefit low BS/WS attackers. An evasion penalty most strongly affect high WS/Ag/Wp targets.

But honestly, it's mostly a flavour thing. The game has to-hit and evasion mechanics, so why not apply modifiers to them that sort of vaguely mesh with reality instead of doing it in a way the flies in the face of reality and gleefully bites it off like one of those face eating squiggly thingies Orks use for eating competitions?

Well you have to consider how it affects play. Players love getting bonuses, probably more than inflicting penalties on their enemies. In the case where the players get the drop on the bad guys, which is generally more fun?

Maybe I mixed up 2 topics a little.

The first one is about bonus that should be given on enemies with in the state of being helpless, stunned and dazed.

Through the discussion a good hint was given: it does not make much sense to give this bonus on ranged attacks, but rather on melee only (as on ranged, a still standing target is quite the same, but in melee I can pick such a target quite better of).

So giving melee attacks a +30 on helpless, +20 on stunned and +10 on dazed targets would be fine.

This would also help with the odd issue, that a character with an average starting WS of 36 is hardly able to hit a stunned target right in front of him - thats ridiculous. With the bonus he had at least 56% to do so.

The other issue would be a change to the surprise rule:

- no decrease of initiative: because why should I be slower in the remaining rounds of combat ? My reaction time itself is not affected at all.

- let the surprised ones make an additional Willpower-Test - if they fail, they are really caught on the wrong foot and cannot get along with the situation, which means they are stunned in the first round and dazed in the second as they slowly adapt. If they passed, they are only dazed in the first round as they just are a little confused

Remember that a failed roll need not be a miss, it could just be a blow that is "off-center," "glancing," "absorbed," "deflected," or whatever. I know this does not address the core issue, but its always worth keep in mind less the absurdity of an RNG driven combat system seem too stark.

Current RAW just for clarity (and because I'm having trouble keeping the rules straight - I still play DH1e)

Surprise

• Surprised actors do not gain the normal +2AP for evasion actions before their first turn.

Helpless

• Full AP loss
• Evasion actions disallowed
• +30 To-hit helpless targets

Stunned

• Full AP loss
• No AP gain

Dazed

• -2 AP
• AP gain -2

Looking at that, it's pretty weird that the helpless condition disallows evasion actions, but does allow normal AP gain. Apparently a character that is unconscious for 2 rounds, gains AP as normal on the second round. And can attack people, run around & basically do anything that isn't evasion-related. I'm guessing this is a bug, not a feature

As for the revised-/house-rule stuff:

I like the idea of a WP test to determine how badly a side is surprised, but 2 rounds seems excessive. It strains suspense of disbelief, and if it's the PCs on the receiving end, it probably isn't a whole lot of fun for them.

I'm on the fence about which side should get the modifiers. I agree it's more fun for the players to get positive mods, but the players aren't always the ones doing the ambushing. Moreover, I play with a group of very veteran tabletop gamers who're extremely attentive and make every effort to know the rules inside out... And yet my experience is still that the more mods you offload on the players, the slower the game plays - while the same mods handled by the GM has no significant impact on play speed. And as already mentioned, out in the real world, someone caught off guard isn't any more likely to get hit, they're just a lot more likely to get hurt by it.

... I think I just talked myself back into negative mods on evasion rolls.

EDIT: Oh great, seems I imagined I'd written a bunch more.. But 2nd try's the.. Something or other.

Revised Surprise

• Defender rolls WP Evasion.
  • If fail, defender gains Dazed 1 condition.
  • If pass, defender suffers -10 to all rolls for the round and may not use any attack actions.

Revised Dazed

• -2 AP
• AP gain -2
• Attack actions disallowed
• -20 on all rolls

Revised Stunned

• Full AP loss
• AP gain -3
• Attack & evasion actions disallowed
• -30 on all rolls

Revised Helpless

• Full AP loss
• No AP gain
• All actions disallowed
• -60 on all rolls