I'm open to rules on money. Anybody have any ideas that would encompass multiple worlds with different monetary systems and resources?

Why does currency need rules? Must FFG publish elementary grade addition and subtraction?

That's what I'm saying. Currency doesn't need rules but there is an argument that it needs to be established in order to properly use bribery.

I'm open to rules on money. Anybody have any ideas that would encompass multiple worlds with different monetary systems and resources?

Just say currency is only good on one planet (except gold and the like) and anything you don't use is just returned or junked. Roll influence to get influence bonise + DoS times whatever (different modifiers get you different values for whatever) "thrones" when you want to have some cash to hand and make sure it's a better use of that roll to just get an item so players don't slow down play by gaming the system, all it needs is a list of prices and your set to go. Should take less than a page.

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Does it break suspension of disbelief? For you, perhaps. But "incompatibility with Fgdsfg's playstyle" is not an actual issue with the rules. They work perfectly fine for how they're supposed to work.

In other words, I perfectly get your point, I just think it's not a valid point to be raised against those rules.

It's selfish and objectively indefensible from an argumentative standpoint.

I don't allow my players to make the Influence roll for the sake of roleplaying. I as the GM make the roll secretly. That way they never know if it's a sure fire success or not. For all they know, they failed and the ganger is going to lead them into a trap and rob them or have them killed because he smells something fishy.

A simple roll of the dice is nice but I like players to be more involved than that.

When it comes down to it, not every world's monetary system will be the same. An armoury world will likely have better prices on body armour than a feral world where it's rare. Also, do we really expect feral worlders to even use thrones as their primary money? I would think that they would be using some kind of precious metal like gold, silver, copper, etc. It's likely that thrones have ZERO value there especially on feral worlds that resist or hate the Imperium. The rules can't cover all of that.

What is needed in order for a GM to determine this and to give players an idea of how to approach it in a narrative sense, is a point of reference based on the idea of an average Imperial World with an average economy.

That's all a listed value would be. A point of reference to be played with, toyed with, bent and broken. A GM that let's you buy a Plasma Gun on a feral frontier world is a bad GM. One that lists a bionic limb at the same price on a space station as on a forge world is an idiot.

Let me tell you a story about a requistion.

Back at the start of Black Crusade system one of my player waited till arriving on more o less civilized planet and then write down list of about fifty position hed want to get. Then he just calculate all modifiers and just sit and roll every position, even as they were about 5-15 target roll. He wasn`t intrested in anything, nor where he get this thing, nor how he obtain it. He did that just becouse he had mechanism to get stuff, so he use it, leaving me with headache about roleplay, and hurt about gaining suit of power armore and some over overpowered crap. All my pointing at 'requisition not a simple roll, it should be explained how you trying to gain it' mett the wall of words 'You GM - you tell me how i get it, becouse i get it by roll'.

My point - ingame reqisition for obtaining stuff is unpredictble tool in hands of players. The good players can use it real good, but still it posible to produse situation geting something out of nowhere. And if player kinda slackers - it became black hole in balancing and common sence and points in arguing betwen GM and players, wich never fun actualy. With solid money each player knew his limit, what exactly he can buy, and what he cannot. Anything they want above, motivate players to think, to figure out some plans or schemes for obtaining more money, or more usefull staff. In requisition situation each player just can say 'i want leman russ'. Just becouse he can do it.

I have the feeling that all this abstraction is just the laziness to give each item a balanced price.

I highly doubt that. It's really not a ton of work. The objectives of the requisition system are fairly obvious, and I really don't think lazy developers is one of them.

It is a ton of work.

The problem is to create a "realsitic" value, that is balanced against comparable items.

Given the fact, that both rarity and usefullness play a role, this is really not an easy thing (and there were some odd prices in DH1 for sure).

I think the way that I'll be handling requisition is the same way that I handle magic items in D&D. Some items are just plain and simple almost impossible to find, like power armour, power weapons, plasma and melta weapons. The same would go for certain drugs (depending on where the PCs are) and other equipment. Some will just be rarer than the others. I'm not so sure that the requisition system is deep enough to take this into account. I first noticed this in my DH1 group when my players figured out that they could very likely requisition anything they wanted if they tried hard enough.

...(and there were some odd prices in DH1 for sure).

True. What was it, 40 Thrones for a standard-quality Chrono? Zuh? -And food prices were so high that no hab-prol could possibly survive on their pittance wages...

I think the way that I'll be handling requisition is the same way that I handle magic items in D&D. Some items are just plain and simple almost impossible to find, like power armour, power weapons, plasma and melta weapons. The same would go for certain drugs (depending on where the PCs are) and other equipment. Some will just be rarer than the others. I'm not so sure that the requisition system is deep enough to take this into account. I first noticed this in my DH1 group when my players figured out that they could very likely requisition anything they wanted if they tried hard enough.

This depends heavily on the sort of campaign you are running of course. To use your D&D reference, I prefer my campaigns to be "high magic" I like to show off the wide variety or stuff in the 40k setting and the stark contrast between haves and have nots. This means that if the acolytes are bumping into aristocrats and their fighting men they will be seeing plasma, melta, and various heavy weapons from time to time.

I do agree that the system seems to be shallow though, more granulation is better as the AP system has revealed. Perhaps simply widening the range by a factor of two and spacing things out better along it would work, although a list of appropriate modifiers would likely need ot be included to make the rarest of items ever available.

Let me tell you a story about a requistion.

Back at the start of Black Crusade system one of my player waited till arriving on more o less civilized planet and then write down list of about fifty position hed want to get. Then he just calculate all modifiers and just sit and roll every position, even as they were about 5-15 target roll. He wasn`t intrested in anything, nor where he get this thing, nor how he obtain it. He did that just becouse he had mechanism to get stuff, so he use it, leaving me with headache about roleplay, and hurt about gaining suit of power armore and some over overpowered crap. All my pointing at 'requisition not a simple roll, it should be explained how you trying to gain it' mett the wall of words 'You GM - you tell me how i get it, becouse i get it by roll'.

My point - ingame reqisition for obtaining stuff is unpredictble tool in hands of players. The good players can use it real good, but still it posible to produse situation geting something out of nowhere. And if player kinda slackers - it became black hole in balancing and common sence and points in arguing betwen GM and players, wich never fun actualy. With solid money each player knew his limit, what exactly he can buy, and what he cannot. Anything they want above, motivate players to think, to figure out some plans or schemes for obtaining more money, or more usefull staff. In requisition situation each player just can say 'i want leman russ'. Just becouse he can do it.

The response to this is "I'm the GM. Ill tell you when to roll." Then if he doesn't say how he got things you can feel free to not let him roll. If he refuses that, then don't play with him. Seriously.

Thats ok to do sometimes - but with the current rules this will happen that often that players will say you are suppressing them.

They will say that why do they have so much invested in influence if they are not allowed to use it more freely.

It was much easier when we had a better differentiation between money and influence.

I mean, you could still get certain items only with influence, or even make availabilitiy checks with influence, but you should pay with money...

People keep raising the issue that Influence tests will be made 'whenever the players want', but if you can't reign that in as a GM, I don't see how you'd be much better off controlling a party using money. The fact of the matter is it's the GM's job to say when and where items and services are actually available.

There is a differentiation.

Charm (Brag) and Commerce (Acquisition) are two different skills, with very different applications. They both use Influence; one is used to sway opinions while the other is used to "buy" stuff.

Also, I'm pretty sure we've never had a system where there was a differentiation between money and influence.

Yeah, Profit Factor combined the two, and Infamy did too, effectively. Only War was a little different, but that's just because you don't buy things in the guard. IIRC Ascension level DH recommended dropping thrones entirely, too.

There is a differentiation. Charm (Brag) and Commerce (Acquisition) are two different skills, with very different applications. They both use Influence; one is used to sway opinions while the other is used to "buy" stuff. Also, I'm pretty sure we've never had a system where there was a differentiation between money and influence.

Ahm...DH1 ?

No, not DH1. Ascension's Influence REPLACED Thrones, it didn't operate alongside them.

I can't help but feel this was partly aimed at me as I've provided alot of examples here

Uh. Sorry if it came off that way. It was only really aimed at the example in the post I was quoting. I may or may not have read your examples.

The point was simply that yes, you can word an example in ways to make the acquisition system sound ridiculous. I could probably also word any such examples in ways that made it sound perfectly reasonable. It all depends on the agenda you're pushing.

But at the end of the day, I think Gaunt is right. Nobody here is likely to convince anyone else to switch viewpoints, it's all mired in individual preferences and play-styles. Me, I like to think that I'm straddling the middle, somewhat. I generally don't like abstract systems like the Acquisition system , but I do think it works decently for Dark Heresy.

Either way, Acquisition isn't really any different from the Thrones system in DH1 which was also an abstraction over a million different local currencies. Acquisition is more random (since there's a dice roll involved) whereas the Thrones system was more hand-wavey by magically converting your carried funds into local currencies.

Ultimately, I really do want a book that devoted some time to the subject. A look at the everyday life in the Imperium, including how money are generally handled among the common populace.

...(and there were some odd prices in DH1 for sure).

True. What was it, 40 Thrones for a standard-quality Chrono? Zuh? -And food prices were so high that no hab-prol could possibly survive on their pittance wages...

40 Thrones for a standard-quality Chrono. I don't see that as unreasonable in many cases. I know it is very expensive, but then I don't necessarily think they are common in most planets in the 40k setting.

Food... I will grant you that. I think I decided the cost was for a month's food or something like that.

No, not DH1. Ascension's Influence REPLACED Thrones, it didn't operate alongside them.

DH1 also had influence, it just didnt call it that way.

What do you think charm embodied ? Or Peer Talents ? Good reputation ?

It was another way to portray influence, without skipping money.

And i really see it highly critical to combine costs and availability.

A standard car might not be rare at all - but that does not mean that it is cheap.

Or a passage at a freighter - might be hard to find at certain locations, but might not be expensive.

A passage at high class luxury spaceship might also be hard to find, but will be expensive.

No difference in influence though.

A special kind of screw might be very hard to find, but it is not expensive.

It is a too abstract system that sometimes creates odd combinations.

We were discussing systems of using a skill roll to acquire goods and services, actually, so your point is fairly moot. An ACQUISITION system has never coexisted with a straight currency system in an FFG game. That's all that was being said.

If you charm out something of a contact, you also AQUIRE it, so keep your word-picking.

That's clearly not the intent of the system though, and it relies on fellowship, which is a standard characteristic which isn't intended to represent your accumulated renown or wealth. It can also be raised with XP, meaning it's very different to Influence.

I get what you're saying, but I feel like you're arguing against a point that no one actually made.