Underwhelming Triplex

By bogi_khaosa, in Only War Rules Questions

I was crunching the numbers, and the Triplex Pattern Lasgun, despite looking spiffy at first glance, seems to not really be that good (mainly due to the lack of a variable fire setting).

Which makes me think that I must be missing something with the incineration mode, which I thought was supposed to be some kind of heavy-hitting blast. What all that Felling actually does is raise the damage of an average hit to 9.5 as opposed to the M36's 8.5. It is the same damage as the overcharge blast and considerably worse than the overload blast. (Unless you happen to be fighting something with a high Unnatural Toughness and bad armor, i.e., an Ork.)

The precision mode (aka poor man's longlas) is not bad, but the incinerator really seems pointless in most situations, because anything it can do the precision mode can do better -- with the sinple exception of when you have to move and shoot.

Well, there you go. If you can stand still and shoot, use precision mode. If you have to move and shoot, use burst mode. And compared to the hostshot lasgun, it's easy to carry and obtain more ammunition. So what's the problem?

For one thing: Felling doesn't increase average damage, so are you talking about Proven when you say it only raises the avg damage to 9.5?

Proven (5) means that any shot will deal at least the average damage of a standard lasgun, that is, you can never deal less!
You're still equally likely to deal more damage, but you will never go under it!
That is in itself a rather big advantage, I think, as it makes your weapon that much more reliable and likely to kill. Even lacking a second shot, which may or may not hit, chances are pretty good that you will deal more damage with incineration mode, more than what the average will tell you.

Felling (4) is very situational, that is true. But you'll love it against the big nasties with all that Unnatural Toughness, I think.

So, comparing it to the standard lasgun: It offers as much variety, with as many uses, just different ones...


M36 vs Triplex, in my Opinion:
The M36 is the baseline gun to compare all others to. It does decent damage, has decent range and ammo, is easy to acquire but has **** penetration. Its variable settings allow it do upgrade damage slightly (although I don't really see the point of overcharge) or upgrade damage some more and gain some penetration (great in a pinch!) in exchange for becoming unreliable.

The Triplex is, in basic mode, identical to the M36. However, it has different variable settings. Instead of offering the same gun with boosted power, it offers a three-in-one deal with those two additional modes:
Precision: As bogi stated, a 'poor man's long-las'. When there is no sniper, or no better sniping weapon, this will get the job done. When you don't need the fire-rate, this is a good choice in any case.
Incineration: Short range, this one massively boosts damage (compared to what the M36 can do, anyway) and will blast through Unnatural Toughness. I think I'd leave my gun on this mode always, unless I expected longer range engagements, because Proven (5) is pretty ******' awesome. The lack of Pen is a shame, but this mode seems designed to fight orks or 'nids, where Felling is as god or better (haven't done the math, there). So, big nasty coming real close? Incinerate away.

The thing is, the incineration/burst mode DOESN'T massively boost damage. Unless I did the math wrong, its average damage per shot is 9.5; which is the same as an M36 fired on overcharge, and it has LOWER maximum damage than the M36 fired on overcharge (note: overcharge, not overload). Minimum damage is much higher admittedly (the range is 8-13 rather than 5-14).

It's more of a "not do really low damage" shot than a "do a lot of damage" shot.

Was looking at the math for this, and basically writing a small essay as a response.

However it ended up being a very easy conclusion and the math behind it was pretty much just a bunch of use-less text.

Precision-mode wins every time, except for when you can't aim and shoot. it doesn't matter if your target has Unnatural toughness(4) or if it does. If you can aim, always fire with precision mode, if you can't, choose between standard and incinerate depending on the target.

The reason comes down to how easy it is to land additional D10 damage with accurate weapons, which easily overtake both felling and proven.

* Proven(5) only raises the average damage to 6,5 (25+6+7+8+9+10=65)

Average damage is not helpful here, I fear, because how many shots do you need to fire to achieve that average? And how often will you die in the meantime because of a really bad roll when you needed to roll high? Yeah, it's only one die, so it's a flat distribution of what you will roll, but that makes it even more important to have a high minimum. After all, Proven (5) means that there are four results of your die that can not happen i.e. a 40% chance to do more damage than standard.
Yes, Precision mode improves on that. But no Pen and no Felling mean that there is potential a big deal of damage reduction in your way.

So again:

Incineration mode essentially guarantees you a decent hit, one that bypasses even carapace armor, before any additional damage bonuses! That is not to be underestimated. Sure, it doesn't have Pen, which would make it awesome, but it has Felling, which allows it to be as effective against tough enemies as it is otherwise.

Precision mode offers potentially very high damage against unarmored and not especially tough enemies. Can be great, but requires you to aim to be worth using.

Standard is, well, standard.

None of them make your weapon unreliable or use up more ammo, which might not always matter, but when it does...

One more thing: In the end, all the math is worth less than what it works like in actual play. Is it so good everyone needs it? Is it so bad no one will ever be able to use it?

I think it's neither. It's not massively better than the M36 (it's not supposed to be), yet offers several particular advantages in its modes that will be useful many times, in different situations than the M36. It's not horrible (like the laslock, f.ex.) but has distinct disadvantages: It's rarer and it has no option with Penetration.

You're right in that Incineration doesn't mean you will deal much more damage, but you will be more constant, which is very good, without halving your ammo supply like overcharge does! And yes, overload will be even better, but you'll get jams and your ammo supply is halved again. That's some rather strong drawbacks.

So, maybe it is underwhelming, but I posit that this is only because you were expecting something that the Triplex isn't. It's not an upgrade, it's a sidegrade. And from what I understand, that's entirely intentional.

The issue, as I understand it isn't that the triplex isn't better then the standard M36. It's that the Incinerationsetting is sub-par compared to precision-setting.

I to, assumed that Proven(5) and Felling(4) would make a significant impact against targets that required a larger amount of damage to bypass damage reduction. But as I looked into it, it didn't. the extra +10 from accurate is actually better then felling(4), because it gives that extra D10 damage at the same threshold as Incinerate starts makings it's hits in the first place. Proven(5) is sadly less of an impact that you'd think, and while you're correct in that even rolls of 1 damage on incinerate can actually do damage remember that only 1 out of 10 rolls with 2 D10 will do less then 5 damage, and next to no rolls with 3 D10 will be less then 5 (1 out of 100).

If you start to throw in the differences with short-range, talents that scale with DoS ect it gets even worse, with respect to precision vs incinerate.

The only, and I mean only time incinerate is better is when you can't aim and shoot.

I should say that the Triplex is, in many ways better then M36, it benefits from good/best quality, the damage potential per shot is the same, and the accurate option is wonderful for damage output. Given the choice I'd always go triplex, but it's also represented by the weapons availability.

If wanted I could throw up the entire damage formula and go into the real details of the problem, but it might be incredibly boring >_>

Well, then I misunderstood the initial question. I thought that the triplex as a whole was supposed to be underwhelming, and that is false, I think.
Whether Incineration is worse than Precision is quite a different question.

It's not just the damage reduction you can bypass, but also that you will always deal a minimum of 8 points of damage. I dare say that that is not all that bad compared to 2d10 + 3. Yes, 5-23 is often better than 8-13, but far from always, I'd think.

Yes, Felling is not amazing, I would have preferred Pen, but it is what it is, and looking at an ork nob with UT 5, and no head armour, I think it is absolutely better than +1d10. (Again: Guaranteed +4 vs. chance at higher damage)

So I think Incinerate is also better when you don't need a lot of damage, but you need it guaranteed and when fighting things like orks.

But I'd be kinda interested in the formula, as to me the 1 in 10 chance of less than 5 damage seems off, but I haven't had the time to do the math on that one. Cheers :)

There are a few premises to make the calculations, I'm going to assume the fallowing.

  • The shooter is adept with ranged weaponry (BS 40).
  • The shooter spends 1 half action on aiming, otherwise accurate doesn't function and the comparison is void.
  • No extra talents are applied to the equation.
  • The shooting is done within 25 meters, to give both settings close range benefit
  • We're shooting at a good possible target for Incinerate-mode TB 4 and Unnatural Toughness(4)

I'll start out with Incinerate as it's the easiest one.

To-hit = 70 from 40+10(aim)+10(standard attack)+10(close range)

Damage possible is minimum 4(8), maximum 9(13)

50% of the time is 4(8) damage, with damage rolls of 1 to 5. afterwards 6 to 10 has10% each.

Average damage is thus (5*5+6+7+8+9+10)/10 = 6.5

30% chance to fail damage

35% chance to do 4 damage

35% chance to do 5-9 damage

Average damage is 4

Precision-mode gets heavier on the math due to the difference in damage depending on the DoS.

To-hit = 80 from 40+10(aim)+10(standard attack)+10(close range)+10(accurate)

1 DoS deals 0(4) to 5(13) damage

2 DoS deals 0(5) to 15(23) damage

3 DoS deals 0(6) to 25(33) damage

Hit-rolls of 80 to 71 counts as 1DoS

1 DoS is straight forward. damage-rolls of 1 to 5 does no damage, 6 to 10 deals 1 to 5 damage

Hit-rolls of 70 to 51 counts as 2 or 3 DoS

2 DoS deals 2D10+3 damage and we're leaving "basic" math and enter probability. The damage possible is 2 to 20. However the probability to get 2 is not the same as 10 or 11. to get 2 we need to roll 1+1, only one possible way. 3 can be both 1+2 and 2+1. The damage rolls that fail to do damage are 2,3,4 and 5. each with their probability of 1/100, 2/100, 3/100 and 4/100. the total probability to roll 5 or less with 2 D10s is 10/100 =1/10

Hit-rolls of 50 to 01 counts as 4+ DoS

As with 2D10s but even harsher, 3 D10s can only roll 3 once every 1000 rolls. 4 is rolled 3 out of 1000 and 5 is rolled 6 out of 1000. In the end, only 10/1000 = 1/100 damage rolls deal no damage.

this adds up to

27.5% = 20 + 10*0.5 + 20*1/10 + 50*1/100 % chane to deal 0 damage

5% = 10*0.5 chance to deal 1 to 5 damage

18 % = 20*9/10 chance to deal 1 to 15 damage*

49.5%= 50*99/100 chance to deal 1 to 25 damage**

* statisticly speaking we're expecting 6 in average

** statisticly speaking we're expecting 11 in average

The end result is

27.5% chance to fail to do damage

12.9% chance to do 4 or less damage

59.6% chance to do 5-25 damage

Average damage 10.7475

Edited by EmilMasback

You saved me from posting my own math. :)

It occurs to me why the Proven (5) is really there. 6.5 is I believe the average roll for a 1d10 Tearing attack. Incineration mode is basically giving a single shot Tearing without the doubled chance of Righteous Fury.

Yeah the mode is useless unless if you want to move and shoot (or make a called shot in one round); and even then in the first case it will do less damage on average than standard mode except in very unusual circumstances (against UT targets it will get an average of 1 more wound in or thereabouts).

Okay, convinced. Precision mode is best, because Accurate is just so **** good.

So Incinerate's at best a reasonable replacement for standard in some situations, and at worst kinda pointless...
Thanks for the math and the discussion!

(Also, bogi_khaosa, did you mean less than precision at the end? Or standard if it gets 2-3 hit on target?)

Okay, convinced. Precision mode is best, because Accurate is just so **** good.

So Incinerate's at best a reasonable replacement for standard in some situations, and at worst kinda pointless...

Thanks for the math and the discussion!

(Also, bogi_khaosa, did you mean less than precision at the end? Or standard if it gets 2-3 hit on target?)

Standard. I deleted my math, but I came up with something like an average of 3 wounds per attack (not hit) with standard vs. 2.5 or so for incinerate if my memory is working. (vs. an ork with TB4 (+2) and AP2).

Edited by bogi_khaosa

I must be misunderstanding you.
Single shot standard vs single shot incinerate: Same basic stats, incinerate loses range but gains Proven and Felling.
Did you include chance to miss? Because otherwise no way that incinerate could be worse, right?

I'm sorry, I meant standard firing on semi auto. The incinerate will do more damage if 1 shot hits, less damage that 2+ hits from standard attack, on average less damage,

Okay. Yeah that makes sense. I guess I'm a bit biased since ime I'd rarely hit with more than one shot, but that's just bad luck.

Oh wow. You'd think I've been dismantled thoroughly enough, but then I go and read the rules more closely...

Proven is actually pretty pointless on single-shot weapons, since you can always choose to count your DoS instead of your roll! Sure, you won't have 5DoS all the time, but 2 or 3 seem likely enough, and then 5 is really not much better.

And it improves Accurate even more, since double 1s is now impossible. You'll at least havr one 3!

It improves semi-auto too. :)

I know what they were trying to do with incinerate was make a single shot that is powerful but not as strong as the overloaded M36 lasgun, but it didn't work out well.

Maybe let the triplex use the variable setting rule, and/or give incinerate S/3/- but have it use 2 charges a shot? The fact that the triplex is not reliable and has half the ammo would still balance it out somewhat relative to the M36.

The Triplex shouldn't 'balance' vs. the M36, it's a rare weapon. So it should be compared to your other choice of rare weapon, the hotshot lasgun.

The triplex has the advantage of being an accurate weapon, and having longer range, and easier to carry, acquire, and reload ammunition. The hotshot lasgun is considerably better on the move.

The problem with the triplex is that it's a bit anemic compared to the long las, a scarce weapon. It's worse than the long las for aim and fire, and not really better on the move. The burst mode of the triplex should probably do something like (1d10+4, pen 2) in burst mode