From Burning (X) on page 208:

It doesn't mention armor, which I find odd since the question is inevitably going to come up. Is perhaps the phrase, "a Burning character suffers a single hit of X energy damage to a random hit location" implying that armor & Toughness Bonus are not subtracted from the damage? That the character just suffers it without modification from armor and TB? Or is it not mentioned because of the assumption that, of course, armor and TB are subtracted?

Since this is a change from DH1 I think the rules need to be more explicit here about it.

Good hint - this should be clarified with a short sentence, if it is reduced by Armour, Toughness or both.

I assume it is reduced by both, otherwise flame is even more insane than it already seems to be.

Yeah, without both armor and toughness, Burning goes from a soft CC that can kill you if you ignore it to an "I win" button.

Yeah, without both armor and toughness, Burning goes from a soft CC that can kill you if you ignore it to an "I win" button.

I assume it is reduced by both, otherwise flame is even more insane than it already seems to be.

So to be clear, we're not talking about the damage from Flame (page 134), but rather damage from a Burning Condition (page 208). I think we're all on the same page but just making sure.

I haven't had the same impression that the Burning Condition virtually guarantees death, as is being suggested.

So let's look at Burning in the original DH2 Beta, before any updates . If you got hit by a Flamer weapon, which has Flame (2), the struck target got an Agility Test minus (Flame X times 10%) - so in this case Agility -20%, to avoid catching fire. If that failed they'd get a Burning Condition equal to the Flame (X) rating - in this case Flamer (2) would become Burning (2). At the beginning of their next turn, the target would take 2 damage and then add 1 to the Burning Condition, making it Burning (3). So if both armor and TB are subtracted, unless the target has a pathetic Toughness and/or was nude they wouldn't take damage for multiple rounds. Either the target or an ally could attempt to extinguish the target with a successful Agility Test, which took 2 Action Points. DH2 permits two identical non-attack actions in the same turn (but just one attack per turn), page 197. So the target or an ally can try two Agility Tests to put out the flame per Turn .

So the target is not taking any damage for multiple rounds and they or an ally has a 30-45% chance (depending on what their Agility was) - twice - each round to put it out. Pretty darn wimpy for being on fire .

This being the case, FFG turned up the heat (pun intended) with the Burning Condition in Update #2. If the target failed their Agility Test -20 after being hit with a Flame (2) weapon, the Burning Condition was modified to be 3 times X - so Burning (6) in this case. So at the beginning of their next turn the target would take 6 Energy Damage to a random location & then the Burning Condition would be increased by 1, so they would then have Burning (7). An Agility Test by the target or ally still puts out any size flame - and that can be attempted twice per Turn.

Update #3 FFG modified the increase in the Burning (X) each round from adding 1 to doubling it . So in the example we've been using, the Flame (2) became Burning (6), as already stated above. At the beginning of the target's next turn they take 6 energy damage but then the Burning (6) becomes Burning (12) (and the turn after that it would become Burning (24)).

In that same Update #3, they modified the Test of the target or an ally to put out the flame to Agility +20 . And remember, that can be attempted twice per Turn .

For a hypothetical, let's say you subtract TB but you don't remove armor from the damage since it's the armor that's on fire, like it was in DH1. With DH2's minorly pumped stats, it's pretty common to have Toughness in the 40s so let's use that.

That next Round after being hit by the Flamer & catching on fire Burning (6) becomes 6 - 4(TB) = 2 damage. No Wound Effect but you take a Wound. The Burning Condition then gets increased to Burning (12). You then get two Agility +20 Tests that turn for the target or an ally to put out any size fire, whether it be Burning (1) or Burning (20).

Let's say the target fails both those Tests. The beginning of the target's next Turn you apply 12 (for Burning (12)) - 4(TB) = 8 + 5 (Wound Modifier for the wound taken last Round) = 13 Energy damage to a random location. The Wound Effects on any location for 13 Energy is either for some Characteristic Decay or immobilizing the hit limb for 1d5 Rounds. You don't love it but it's not fatal by a long shot. The target's taken their second Wound and the Burning Condition is increased to Burning (24). Then they or an ally get two Agility Tests +20 to extinguish any sized fire.

Let's say the target fails both those Tests. The beginning of the target's next Turn you apply 24 (for Burning (24)) - 4(TB) = 20 + 10 (Wound Modifier for the two prior wounds taken) = 30 Energy damage to a random location. The Wound Effects on any location for 30 Energy is very likely death: Willpower Test -30 to not die.

So the Target would need to get hit by the Flamer weapon in the first place & missed their Evade Test (if they had the AP to Evade). Then the Target would need to miss a Agility Test -20 to catch on fire. Then the Target would need to have missed two Agility Tests +20 on the next Round. Then the target would need to have missed two more Agility Tests +20 on the Round after that. So, once more, if the target misses their Evade Test, a Agility Test -20 and four Agility +20 Tests...then they're toast (pun intended again).

Very briefly, because this post is already too long, let's consider if you subtracted 4-5 points of armor each time. Burning (6) wouldn't get through: no Wound and no Wound Effects. Burning (12) would barely get through: take a Wound but no Wound Effects. Burning (24): take 2nd Wound and suffer effects that aren't good news but isn't lethal. Burning (48): target dies.

The only thing in question is really whether to subtract armor when it's the armor that's burning (subtracting TB is not in question). If you don't subtract armor the target dies in 3 Rounds after catching fire. If you do subtract armor the target dies in 4 Rounds. Both assume the target misses a lot of decent to pretty easy extinguishing rolls by themselves or by an ally.

Personally, I am in the camp that if a PC/NPC is on fire for any length of time their survival rate should be very low. Narratively, I really don't like the idea of subtracting the armor value when that is what is burning. Mechanically, it's very likely a difference of one Round.

I can live with either but I posted this question because I'm hoping FFG will clarify what the rules intend.

Makes sense, solid analysis.

I want to start by saying I like that burning and fire in general seems to be more of a central feature of DH2. Fire is a common theme in 40k and especially for the Inquisition and I am pleased to see it be meaningful and interesting and worthwhile in the rules. Whatever is done, I don't want that to change.

In my test campaign our psyker has access to inferno so my impression of burning may be overly influenced by a flame 4 attack. When starting at burning 12 (a result you can achieve on an enormous number of targets with a mid level psyker or access to a heavy flamer) instant death is pretty much a two round affair. For novices, they die the moment it is their turn unless someone before them in initiative takes the time to try and put out the fire (I am actually ok with that).

The rest of our party favors energy weapons, we have plasma, an inferno pistol, luminen arc/blast, and the aforementioned pyrokine as favored weapons. Earlier in the campaign las featured more heavily, which is also energy of course. As a result it is not uncommon for both npc and pcs to get a few burning condition criticals lumped on as well, which stacks additively unless I am much mistaken. The result is that burning tends to end masters and elites very consistently in two rounds because it is starting at such a high number and doubling is super potent. High Tb and/or armour mitigates this and tends to push it to 3 rounds. Obviously putting out a fire is not hard, but it takes APs, and if you have to attempt twice before succeeding all you have done is reset the fight to getting shot with whatever set you on fire the first time but now with two wounds.

In the end I could be okay with armour not being counted as long as Tb was. I would also be comfortable with some tweaking to the current rather volatile flame/burning state of affairs.

In short, yes, clarification would be nice.