So, you want me to pay to get a book that you want feedback on, that has a built in obsolesce because of this, so that I can turn around and buy it again in a few months?

Good heavens! I had no idea that Fantasy Flight Games had finally implemented their Mandatory Purchase Program! Thank goodness for that! Imagine the anarchy that would grip us if someone could go "You know, I really don't think I should buy that beta version. I think I'll just save my money and wait until the final version is released."

There would be rioting in the streets!

But no, I'll rest easy knowing that FFG has our best interest at heart, with squads of armed men roaming the countryside and rounding up all those dissidents who refuse to buy their product and place them in camps away from the mainstream population. That every man, woman and child in the Free World will own a copy of the Star Wars beta - and all thanks to the Mandatory Purchase Program!

God bless you, Fantasy Flight Games!

I think you're missing the core of my concern, TCBC. Which is not actually those two things. Those are issues that have arisen, but they are tangental to it, but not it.

My issue is : Fantasy Flight is asking people to pay money for the privilege of editing their books for them.

They are (and this is harsh, I know, but this is what it has the appearance of) trying to take advantage of Star Wars fans. The would like to sell them, or give them the option to buy, the same book twice. The incentive to buying it that first time, in it's incomplete form, being that you get to PAY THEM (by buying the book) to do WORK FOR THEM (by helping them edit their product).

I have a concern that we as a gaming community are eagerly allowing ourselves to be taken advantage of.

If you don't mind buying the same book twice, fine. You rock on with your bad selves.

Finally, as has been kindly pointed out to me by several lovely people, there will be no storm troopers coming to my door to drag me to the Source (or the Fantasy Flight store, whichever) and forcing me to buy the beta. Thanks guys, that was a real concern of mine. I was going to be tossing and turning all night over it, I just know it! But with your reassurances, I know now that I'm safe from that horrible fate. I can rest easy tonight, thanks to all of you.

Oh, and I love the picture of Sam, Dess. And I did say "want" in there, with the implication that it was their intended marketing plan. So, there ya go. Besides, as said already, the rest of the board already reassured me that it wasn't the case! I leave, right now, to rest easy because of it.

I just wanted to clarify my points, since they seems to have been lost in the thread.

Like I said though, I'm know I'm just whistling.

Oh, and hoping for that Ewok splat.

They are (and this is harsh, I know, but this is what it has the appearance of) trying to take advantage of Star Wars fans. The would like to sell them, or give them the option to buy, the same book twice. The incentive to buying it that first time, in it's incomplete form, being that you get to PAY THEM (by buying the book) to do WORK FOR THEM (by helping them edit their product).

It could be worse - MUCH worse. How many video games have been released as a Beta, ones that I paid for? You play the new Sim City that came out a few months back? That piece of **** is broken - I mean fundamentally broken. Traffic doesn't work, the RCI doesn't work (the core game mechanic of Sim City, for those of you who don't play. Think of it instead of passing Go in monopoly, the player just kept on going straight and fell off the table. That's how fundamental the RCI is), the water tables never regenerate, and the servers couldn't handle the load for two weeks after launch - it was a complete *********** marketed as a finished product.

At least here, I know what I'm getting in for. It's clearly an incomplete project and marked as such. Sim City? Total blindside.

So while it may be skeezy*, it's an informed decision. Buy or don't buy - but at least my eyes are wide open on the decision. FFG isn't trying to pull a fast one.

*Not that I see it that way. I see it as getting a sneak preview a year in advance.

I have a concern that we as a gaming community are eagerly allowing ourselves to be taken advantage of.

How so? Are they being disingenuous with us? How are they trying to take advantage of us if they are being up front?

As you say yourself:

If you don't mind buying the same book twice, fine. You rock on with your bad selves.

So if it is up to us whether we buy, how is this a problem? If you have no problem with us buying the beta, eyes wide open, and you are happy to wait for the official release of the Core rulebook next year, barring your other problems with the three rulebooks scenario, then why the rant about the beta? You seem to want to champion a cause which needs no championing and , in the end, to make a mountain out of your own personal molehill. Many of us have already been through all this with the EotE beta and were completely happy to buy and participate, which is one reason you are getting so little traction with your gripe.

The one thing that I take um-bridge with is the implication that FFG is being shady or trying to take advantage with/of us, when they are so obviously not and being upfront with their process. You may not like their choice of process, but that is your choice. As has been already stated, there are plenty of other companies that have actually hid things from you, knowing full well that they are either incomplete or subject to revision in short order. Not so here. So don't buy it if you don't agree, but please don't try to make out that there is some sort of conspiracy.

SprainOrge,

I can see your points and appreciate them because, as of late, I share them as well. I was looking forward to Age of Rebellion in beta and was seriously considering its purchase and participating in the feedback sessions here on the forums. However, leave it to real life calamity to put things into proper perspective. I no longer have the discretionary funds to embark on such a venture. In recent days, I've had to re-prioritize purchases and thus more deeply scrutinize based on the potential return on investment. At the moment, AoR beta has fallen off the decision tree, so to speak, due in part to what you have written as concerns. Further, I would prefer that the beta period be extended to at least February 2014. I recall the last beta period and felt extremely rushed by it and thus was able to contribute very little to it. Maybe, just maybe in the extended time frame I might be able to save up the money to purchase the book and participate.

This, coupled with the initial investment in a game whose core rules are already completed, your concerns and my current financial situation, make this an unlikely event for me.

Oh it can always be worse Dess. I don't play enough video games to see that one first hand. But yeah, I know of stuff like that happening. I was excited about the latest Sim City, but not the always online. Played some Diablo 3 with that and ugh. I totally get why a game company would want that, but I'm not interested enough in video games to deal with it again. Last time I cared enough about a video game to engage the online madness was the ME3 ending (I loved it, I'm in the minority, I know). But, all that said, I think that's been getting worse, hasn't it? Releases of buggy products or huge release day issues? This is why I buy like 2, maybe 3 video games a year. And they're almost always used.

You can certainly rock it out, Mouth, I'm not going to tell you that you can't take part in the double purchase. I'm just trying to point out that there is an issue with it. And you're right, they're not being deceptive about it at all. They've told you strait up that the beta book has an 8 month shelf life, and expect that some of the fan base will buy it, eagerly too, and replace it when the final version comes out just as eagerly. That's kind of what I find concerning as well. But, again, for those that will do that, it's your choice and if it doesn't bug you to buy the book twice, it doesn't bug you.

Thanks Angelic, I'm really glad that I'm not the only person who has some concerns over this. I hope your real life calamity works itself out as quickly as it can.

I'm just trying to point out that there is an issue with it.

Lets be clear, the only issue is the one you have. Like I said, people need to stop coming on here and expounding like there is some conspiracy or that FFG is being "shady" when they are not. That is my issue with threads like this. You keep saying that it is ok if people want to purchase, but keep making out like what FFG is doing is wrong. Don't agree with it, that's fine, say your piece, move on. But FFG is not doing anything wrong.

I've been roleplaying for probably 35 years. In that time, I've bought books that I got tremendous value out of -- dog-eared and bindings worn until the pages were yellow and falling out. And then there was the crap that was returned, gifted, sold, traded or simply thrown out.

Whether you plan to buy it or not, know that the RPG market is not the same as it was even 5 or ten years ago.

We are in the Kick starter age, where even multimillion dollar productions are crowd-funded. We're in the day when CRPGs are going to their base to prefund new projects.

If you want to support the game, and have the money to spend, then understand that these Beta books are a cost of doing business.

In the 90s-00's, this would most certainly have been a freely distributed play test package.

But that train's left the station.

Buy it. Or don't. But, it's hardly a simple cash grab in this day and age of the PnP RPG market.

Yes, it's one thing to lament that Lucasfilm wont let it be a free/discounted digital copy (because that would be convenient but ultimately it can't be done), but I don't think it's reasonable to think FFG should just print and distribute the beta version for free and eat the costs. That would hurt the production of the final book, and it either speaks a lot for entitlement or dismisses the value or customer demand for such extensive preview/early release material. I didn't really even care that much to run a Rebellion game or use Rebel ships or careers, but this beta is making me interested and for $30 I'd be happy to try it out this many months early.

The concern/complaint I'm trying to bring to the fore is: you're paying FF to play their unfinished product (the Beta version), and will then pay again for the finished product (final version).

We all know this, it's REALLY obvious. You'd have to almost incapable of comprehending the game at all to not get this. Nobody is getting duped into anything, it's not like there's a scam and you're the only one who can see it. What there is is a change in how games are being developed, and it's a welcome one IMHO. If I have the disposable income and want to spend it to get an early peek, that's my privilege. If I don't, then it's "patience, young Padawan".

In any case, I don't for a minute believe you're concerned about the gaming community getting ripped off, your tone seems entirely too self-serving. You've somehow imagined a mountain, and there wasn't even a molehill there to start with.

Edit: You are also making a 3rd assumption. That FFG is asking you to pay to be in the beta. This is not the case, it's a matter of perspective, but a big one. FFG is asking you to pay for a printed rules book. You aren't really paying for the beta, you're paying for the book. And 30 dollars for that isn't that bad when the average graphic novel cost 15-40 and is less pages and ink.

Edit/Edit: It isn't FFG that is not allowing PDF's either, which would have let them do what they did with some other beta's they have done (buy into the beta for a discount later on the final product) it is lucasarts, so it is their business practice that is at fault for that part not FFG.

I think you're missing the core of my concern, TCBC. Which is not actually those two things. Those are issues that have arisen, but they are tangental to it, but not it.

My issue is : Fantasy Flight is asking people to pay money for the privilege of editing their books for them.

You may have missed that edit before you posted, I understood that this was the main issue after my post when I re-read some of what you said, and then tried to add in my rebuttal. above, but you may haev read my post before I edited it.

FFG is not asking you to pay for the privilege of editing their book. They are asking the following, "Would you be willing to pay to have an advanced copy of the rule book sent to you for $30 (a good price for a printed book of this size and content) knowing that it may have some errors and may undergo some changes which we as FFG will allow you to print out for free. And if you would like, we are taking feedback if you find any errors, or have any suggestions."

Your perception is bent to see this as them screwing you. You are ignoring that you are getting a fully printed book for $30 (a very fair price considering the quality), and that you are not required to help them in any way, nor are you required to buy the final book later, and that they facilitate you not needing the final book by giving the updates out for free.

Now, many people who have been commenting since the first few are being argumentative just to be that way. I am trying to help ease you mind here.

How you respond to this, now that I have clearly addressed all 3 of your issues, will determine if you really are being honest about your issue or if you have simple decided to want to fight about this non-issue.

Edit: I'd also like to note that the AoR books adds new race options and gear and ships (possible more as I'm still waiting to get my copy) to the EotE game, so buying the beta as you would a supplement for 30 dollars (and just using the updates to bring it in line with the final product) is a good deal. The very first supplement for Dark Heresy was the Inquisitor's Handbook, all it did was add new background options, a new career and then a bunch of gear (which was little more than retooled old gear). It is 50 dollars. So even waiting for the AoR full book and buying it just as a supplement for EotE for $60 is not a bad price.

If I have the disposable income and want to spend it to get an early peek, that's my privilege. If I don't, then it's "patience, young Padawan".

In any case, I don't for a minute believe you're concerned about the gaming community getting ripped off, your tone seems entirely too self-serving.

Whoomp, there it is.

Every time one of these posts pops up, I never get the sense that the OP is saying, "I really want to test this game with my friends and help make it the best product it could be, but I shouldn't have to pay $30 for it!" Rather, it always reeks of, "I should be given a free book right now! "

Further, the faux-altruism to say that 'FFG is duping gamers and SW fans' is to insult the intelligence of gamers and SW fans. I bought the EotE beta. I had $30 kicking around, and I wanted to check out the new system for Star Wars. I read the book, enjoyed it, and put it on the shelf; didn't contribute a darn thing to the beta. When the core book came out, I bought it and I still marvel over what a great product it is. I wasn't 'duped' into anything.

This time around, I don't have the same burning curiosity about the system - I know how it works. Also, I know I will be unable to get a playtest group together. So, do I feel like I have to have this beta book? Hell, naw! I can happily wait 'til next summer, and wait I will. No skin off my nose.

And as for the last (and weakest) argument - stats for X-wings and Star Destroyers and such - if I need those, someone here will tell me what they are. It's not like the people who've bought the beta have been forced to sign an NDA, or anything!

And as for the last (and weakest) argument - stats for X-wings and Star Destroyers and such - if I need those, someone here will tell me what they are. It's not like the people who've bought the beta have been forced to sign an NDA, or anything!

I would actually say that's the best argument, though maybe not worded right. The fact that there's no actual Core rulebook with EoE and AoR being sourcebooks for it has made me decide to not buy into this game and just continue using WEG's version of SW. I know I'm probably a minority and I don't wish the game ill, but the EoE Core just felt unfinished, and I've no desire to have to get multiple, partially redundant Cores for a complete game, spaced over a long period of time.

Another thing to point out: even if Age of Rebellion is 95% ready to go right now (and I suspect it's really closer to 70~80%), Edge of the Empire just came out. If FFG released it now, or even later this year, they're competing with themselves at that point, and killing sales for both of their own books.

Since it makes sense to wait before releasing AoR regardless, they may as well have a playtest to help put together the best product possible.

Since it makes sense to wait before releasing AoR regardless, they may as well have a playtest to help put together the best product possible.

Exactly.

Plus, we're getting a chance to play using the AoR material right now (or whenever the book shows up for sale on the website) as opposed to waiting until 2014. And when FFG releases the Force & Destiny Beta, I'll be right there with money in hand to buy that book too.

Does this mean that I run the risk of large portions of the book being unusable later on down the line? Perhaps, but as FFG is openly saying that this is a Beta, it's a risk that I know about going in and have accepted. Plus, if it comes down to it, I can simply houserule something in the final version that I don't like to what the Beta version was if I preferred that version.

Also, as a self-avowed "rules tinker monkey," I actually like seeing the progression and development of an RPG. In the case of FFG's Star Wars game, the fact that I can provide feedback directly to the publisher to possibly improve the game is an added bonus. I can look at the EotE Beta and the final version and honestly say "some of those differences are suggestions that I and my fellow gamers made, and it made the game better " than what we had initially.

Would it be great if they could sell it as a PDF at a much lower price? Hell's yes, but if you really want to rant at someone about that, aim the complaints at Lucasfilm and their outdated view to "electronic media." FFG is simply playing the hand they've been dealt, the same hand that WotC had to work with for the many years that they owned the license.

And as for the last (and weakest) argument - stats for X-wings and Star Destroyers and such - if I need those, someone here will tell me what they are. It's not like the people who've bought the beta have been forced to sign an NDA, or anything!

I would actually say that's the best argument, though maybe not worded right. The fact that there's no actual Core rulebook with EoE and AoR being sourcebooks for it has made me decide to not buy into this game and just continue using WEG's version of SW. I know I'm probably a minority and I don't wish the game ill, but the EoE Core just felt unfinished, and I've no desire to have to get multiple, partially redundant Cores for a complete game, spaced over a long period of time.

Then what FFG games do you play? Because everything from Dark Heresy to the Game of Thrones living card game does this, you get the Core Dark Heresy book but what to be a radical Inquisitor? Well, you'll need to get the Radical's handbook for $50, want to play a sister of battle? Blood of the Martyrs ($40); want to have more than one X-wing and two TIE's in you X-wing miniatures game? That's $15 a pop, and $30 for the Falcon or Slave 1.

EotE is for people who want to play fringe elements in the Star Wars Universe, AoR is for those who want to play Rebel Agents, Force and Destiny is for those who want to play Jedi (I assume), you want the option to play all three then yeah, buy them, but each one is complete. The, "This isn't finished because I demand Jedi (or X-wings, or whatever)," stance is the biggest straw-man argument I've heard. Dark Heresy doesn't have Space Marines, the most iconic thing in Warhammer 40K, but it was a complete game and Deathwatch only has Space Marines.

And this is how every game works, want to play a dark elf in DnD, you'll need to buy a special book for that, does that mean that the Player's Handbook 1 is incomplete? Maybe, but that is part of the RPG hobby. And if you have ever bought into any RPG you have added to that way of business. And saying you aren't going to support this product because it does something that every other game out there does makes no sense to me.

And as for the last (and weakest) argument - stats for X-wings and Star Destroyers and such - if I need those, someone here will tell me what they are. It's not like the people who've bought the beta have been forced to sign an NDA, or anything!

I would actually say that's the best argument, though maybe not worded right. The fact that there's no actual Core rulebook with EoE and AoR being sourcebooks for it has made me decide to not buy into this game and just continue using WEG's version of SW. I know I'm probably a minority and I don't wish the game ill, but the EoE Core just felt unfinished, and I've no desire to have to get multiple, partially redundant Cores for a complete game, spaced over a long period of time.

Then what FFG games do you play? Because everything from Dark Heresy to the Game of Thrones living card game does this, you get the Core Dark Heresy book but what to be a radical Inquisitor? Well, you'll need to get the Radical's handbook for $50, want to play a sister of battle? Blood of the Martyrs ($40); want to have more than one X-win and two TIE's in you X-wing miniatures game? That's $15 a pop, and $30 for the Falcon or Slave 1. EotE is for people who want to play fringe elements in the Star Wars Universe, AoR is for those who want to play Rebel Agents, Force and Destiny is for those who want to play Jedi (I assume), you want the option to play all three then yeah, buy them, but each one is complete. The , This isn't finished because I demand Jedi (or X-wings, or whatever)," is the biggest straw-man argument I've heard. Dark Heresy doesn't have Space Marines, the most iconic thing in Warhammer 40K, but it was a complete game and Deathwatch only has Space Marines.

And this is how every game works, want to play a dark elf in DnD, you'll need to buy a special book for that, does that mean that the Player's Handbook 1 is incomplete? Maybe, but that is part of the RPG hobby. And if you have ever bought into any RPG you have added to that way of business. And saying you aren't going to support this product because it does something that every other game out there does.

I disagree they all do this. AoR is reprinting the entire core rules to add elements of the Rebel Alliance (and stats for Imperial material). If you'd read what I said, the fact that I would prefer a full generalized Core book with EoE and AoR supplements, THAT is what other RPGs tend to do, and the model that I prefer. I don't have a problem with RPG supplements, but that's not what this is.

To answer your question, I play many FFG games (A:NR, SW:LCG, LOTR:LCG, Descent, City of Thieves, Arcana), but not their RPGs. I'm not interested in Warhammer at all, so up until now I've never had a reason to consider them, but since I don't personally like their model I've chosen to stay with WEG/D6. Sorry that's unacceptable to you.

I disagree they all do this. AoR is reprinting the entire core rules to add elements of the Rebel Alliance (and stats for Imperial material). If you'd read what I said, the fact that I would prefer a full generalized Core book with EoE and AoR supplements, THAT is what other RPGs tend to do, and the model that I prefer. I don't have a problem with RPG supplements, but that's not what this is.

I did read what you said, but your assumption that because AoR reprints many of the rules found in EotE means that neither is complete is nonsensical. EotE is a complete game and so is AoR, it's like buying Dark Heresy and then Deathwatch, that's why I used that example. The rules for the two are identical, the skills and talents cross the two platforms and so does the majority of the lore regarding the Warp and Demons and the Imperium. Now, there are some differences, just like there are differences between Edge and Age. But the core is the same. So one of the best things about this beta is that you get to buy AoR like you would a supplement, for $30 instead of $60 in over half a year; most supplements cost between $30-60 anyway. But if you don't have Edge and have no desire to play it (just like if you never wanted to play a lowly acolyte to an Inquisitor [Dark Heresy] but always wanted to be a Space Marine [Deathwatch]) then just get Age of Rebellion because it will let you play as Rebels, or wait for Force and Destiny if you only care about Jedi.

You have to stop thinking of Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion as one game, they are two different games that are cross compatible thanks to using the same rules set. Just like Dark Heresy and Only War, or Deathwatch or Black Crusade, or Rogue Trader.

Edit: And look, I'm not trying to convince you to buy the game. If you are happy with WEG or Saga or just playing something else that has nothing to do with Star Wars, that's fine, if you don't like the new mechanic or this vision of RPG rules and dice as narrative tools, that's fine. Just understand that saying that, "FFG has some kind of horrid business practice going on and so I refuse to support it," is nonsensical.

I disagree they all do this. AoR is reprinting the entire core rules to add elements of the Rebel Alliance (and stats for Imperial material). If you'd read what I said, the fact that I would prefer a full generalized Core book with EoE and AoR supplements, THAT is what other RPGs tend to do, and the model that I prefer. I don't have a problem with RPG supplements, but that's not what this is.

I did read what you said, but your assumption that because AoR reprints many of the rules found in EotE means that neither is complete is nonsensical. EotE is a complete game and so is AoR, it's like buying Dark Heresy and then Deathwatch, that's why I used that example. The rules for the two are identical, the skills and talents cross the two platforms and so does the majority of the lore regarding the Warp and Demons and the Imperium. Now, there are some differences, just like there are differences between Edge and Age. But the core is the same. So one of the best things about this beta is that you get to buy AoR like you would a supplement, for $30 instead of $60 in over half a year; most supplements cost between $30-60 anyway. But if you don't have Edge and have no desire to play it (just like if you never wanted to play a lowly acolyte to an Inquisitor [Dark Heresy] but always wanted to be a Space Marine [Deathwatch]) then just get Age of Rebellion because it will let you play as Rebels, or wait for Force and Destiny if you only care about Jedi.

You have to stop thinking of Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion as one game, they are two different games that are cross compatible thanks to using the same rules set. Just like Dark Heresy and Only War, or Deathwatch or Black Crusade, or Rogue Trader.

When I mean incomplete, I mean that I prefer one generalized Core, not "different games" that are actually redundant core rulebooks of the same game system and game world but just with material focusing on particular character types.

In the WEG version of the game (and in many other RPGs), you could make practically anything you wanted with the material provided. You had complete stats for Star Destroyers, Alliance cruisers/fighters, freighters, scouts, Jedi - it was a generalized core rulebook for the system and universe. There were then tons of supplements that provided further material on particular subjects that were of interest to you, but none of them were reinventing the wheel and reprinting the base game just to give you access to that material.

It's also kind of like saying that because FFG put out Deathwatch, that making Only War was a money grab. Wasn't Dark Heresy really just a beta for Rogue Trader and then Rogue Trader just a Beta for Deathwatch which was, in fact, a beta for Only War since Only War really is the perfected (IMO) version of the d10 rules built for Dark Heresy all those years ago?

Oh but all of those could have been a Beta for Dark Heresy 2nd edition, which is in Beta right now.

I want to have a complete set of Star Wars Beta rulebooks as well as a full set of the final Core rulebooks... now that would be a pretty picture on my gaming shelf.

I disagree they all do this. AoR is reprinting the entire core rules to add elements of the Rebel Alliance (and stats for Imperial material). If you'd read what I said, the fact that I would prefer a full generalized Core book with EoE and AoR supplements, THAT is what other RPGs tend to do, and the model that I prefer. I don't have a problem with RPG supplements, but that's not what this is.

I did read what you said, but your assumption that because AoR reprints many of the rules found in EotE means that neither is complete is nonsensical. EotE is a complete game and so is AoR, it's like buying Dark Heresy and then Deathwatch, that's why I used that example. The rules for the two are identical, the skills and talents cross the two platforms and so does the majority of the lore regarding the Warp and Demons and the Imperium. Now, there are some differences, just like there are differences between Edge and Age. But the core is the same. So one of the best things about this beta is that you get to buy AoR like you would a supplement, for $30 instead of $60 in over half a year; most supplements cost between $30-60 anyway. But if you don't have Edge and have no desire to play it (just like if you never wanted to play a lowly acolyte to an Inquisitor [Dark Heresy] but always wanted to be a Space Marine [Deathwatch]) then just get Age of Rebellion because it will let you play as Rebels, or wait for Force and Destiny if you only care about Jedi.

You have to stop thinking of Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion as one game, they are two different games that are cross compatible thanks to using the same rules set. Just like Dark Heresy and Only War, or Deathwatch or Black Crusade, or Rogue Trader.

When I mean incomplete, I mean that I prefer one generalized Core, not "different games" that are actually redundant core rulebooks of the same game system and game world but just with material focusing on particular character types.

In the WEG version of the game (and in many other RPGs), you could make practically anything you wanted with the material provided. You had complete stats for Star Destroyers, Alliance cruisers/fighters, freighters, scouts, Jedi - it was a generalized core rulebook for the system and universe. There were then tons of supplements that provided further material on particular subjects that were of interest to you, but none of them were reinventing the wheel and reprinting the base game just to give you access to that material.

I am honestly confused now, because that doesn't make any sense to me. You'd rather have one core book and tons of supplements that expand on the core book and that's good. But having three core books (for three different but compatible games) so that people can just play the game they want, and then have a few supplements for those games (so people can expand on the game they want without getting shoehorned stuff from other games) that is bad? You are on one hand saying that WEG put everything you need in one book... but then saying on the other that they had a bunch of supplements to cover all the other things that weren't in the core book...

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I am honestly confused. I have no experience with that system. But I have a lot of experience with DnD and the Warhammer 40K line, and Pathfinder, and some other smaller lines and they all seem to fit this bill. A core book and supplements. And then many put out different games with "re-skins," Like Saga, it was just DnD with a Star Wars paint. I thought I got what your problem was and addressed it, but now after you said this, I don't know.

Edge of the Empire has everything you need to play the game, and so does Age of Rebellion. They are complete games and have supplements and are compatible.

I disagree they all do this. AoR is reprinting the entire core rules to add elements of the Rebel Alliance (and stats for Imperial material). If you'd read what I said, the fact that I would prefer a full generalized Core book with EoE and AoR supplements, THAT is what other RPGs tend to do, and the model that I prefer. I don't have a problem with RPG supplements, but that's not what this is.

I did read what you said, but your assumption that because AoR reprints many of the rules found in EotE means that neither is complete is nonsensical. EotE is a complete game and so is AoR, it's like buying Dark Heresy and then Deathwatch, that's why I used that example. The rules for the two are identical, the skills and talents cross the two platforms and so does the majority of the lore regarding the Warp and Demons and the Imperium. Now, there are some differences, just like there are differences between Edge and Age. But the core is the same. So one of the best things about this beta is that you get to buy AoR like you would a supplement, for $30 instead of $60 in over half a year; most supplements cost between $30-60 anyway. But if you don't have Edge and have no desire to play it (just like if you never wanted to play a lowly acolyte to an Inquisitor [Dark Heresy] but always wanted to be a Space Marine [Deathwatch]) then just get Age of Rebellion because it will let you play as Rebels, or wait for Force and Destiny if you only care about Jedi.

You have to stop thinking of Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion as one game, they are two different games that are cross compatible thanks to using the same rules set. Just like Dark Heresy and Only War, or Deathwatch or Black Crusade, or Rogue Trader.

When I mean incomplete, I mean that I prefer one generalized Core, not "different games" that are actually redundant core rulebooks of the same game system and game world but just with material focusing on particular character types.

In the WEG version of the game (and in many other RPGs), you could make practically anything you wanted with the material provided. You had complete stats for Star Destroyers, Alliance cruisers/fighters, freighters, scouts, Jedi - it was a generalized core rulebook for the system and universe. There were then tons of supplements that provided further material on particular subjects that were of interest to you, but none of them were reinventing the wheel and reprinting the base game just to give you access to that material.

I totally understand where you are coming from and I for one am glad that FFG is doing this Star Wars game the way they are doing it with separate game lines instead of a single generalized core rulebook like the ones WEG and WotC have done in the past.

I think that how FFG is doing this is the best way possible... all IMNSHO of course.

I disagree they all do this. AoR is reprinting the entire core rules to add elements of the Rebel Alliance (and stats for Imperial material). If you'd read what I said, the fact that I would prefer a full generalized Core book with EoE and AoR supplements, THAT is what other RPGs tend to do, and the model that I prefer. I don't have a problem with RPG supplements, but that's not what this is.

I did read what you said, but your assumption that because AoR reprints many of the rules found in EotE means that neither is complete is nonsensical. EotE is a complete game and so is AoR, it's like buying Dark Heresy and then Deathwatch, that's why I used that example. The rules for the two are identical, the skills and talents cross the two platforms and so does the majority of the lore regarding the Warp and Demons and the Imperium. Now, there are some differences, just like there are differences between Edge and Age. But the core is the same. So one of the best things about this beta is that you get to buy AoR like you would a supplement, for $30 instead of $60 in over half a year; most supplements cost between $30-60 anyway. But if you don't have Edge and have no desire to play it (just like if you never wanted to play a lowly acolyte to an Inquisitor [Dark Heresy] but always wanted to be a Space Marine [Deathwatch]) then just get Age of Rebellion because it will let you play as Rebels, or wait for Force and Destiny if you only care about Jedi.

You have to stop thinking of Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion as one game, they are two different games that are cross compatible thanks to using the same rules set. Just like Dark Heresy and Only War, or Deathwatch or Black Crusade, or Rogue Trader.

When I mean incomplete, I mean that I prefer one generalized Core, not "different games" that are actually redundant core rulebooks of the same game system and game world but just with material focusing on particular character types.

In the WEG version of the game (and in many other RPGs), you could make practically anything you wanted with the material provided. You had complete stats for Star Destroyers, Alliance cruisers/fighters, freighters, scouts, Jedi - it was a generalized core rulebook for the system and universe. There were then tons of supplements that provided further material on particular subjects that were of interest to you, but none of them were reinventing the wheel and reprinting the base game just to give you access to that material.

I am honestly confused now, because that doesn't make any sense to me. You'd rather have one core book and tons of supplements that expand on the core book and that's good. But having three core books (for three different but compatible games) so that people can just play the game they want, and then have a few supplements for those games (so people can expand on the game they want without getting shoehorned stuff from other games) that is bad? You are on one hand saying that WEG put everything you need in one book... but then saying on the other that they had a bunch of supplements to cover all the other things that weren't in the core book...

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I am honestly confused. I have no experience with that system. But I have a lot of experience with DnD and the Warhammer 40K line, and Pathfinder, and some other smaller lines and they all seem to fit this bill. A core book and supplements. And then many put out different games with "re-skins," Like Saga, it was just DnD with a Star Wars paint. I thought I got what your problem was and addressed it, but now after you said this, I don't know.

Edge of the Empire has everything you need to play the game, and so does Age of Rebellion. They are complete games and have supplements and are compatible.

Not sure how else to explain it. Can you buy EotE and play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided? Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial? Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing a Jedi in EotE? Can you play an Imperial? All that was possible with the WEG/D6 core rulebook, because it provided a full Star Wars experience.

That's what I mean by a generalized Core. A core rulebook with everything you need to make most any type of character or campaign, with supplements that add bonus material should you choose. D&D didn't have a Fighter Class Game, a Bard/Rogue Game, a Holy Game, and a Magic Game all rehashing the same core rules but adding classes/items for that particular class.

I disagree they all do this. AoR is reprinting the entire core rules to add elements of the Rebel Alliance (and stats for Imperial material). If you'd read what I said, the fact that I would prefer a full generalized Core book with EoE and AoR supplements, THAT is what other RPGs tend to do, and the model that I prefer. I don't have a problem with RPG supplements, but that's not what this is.

I did read what you said, but your assumption that because AoR reprints many of the rules found in EotE means that neither is complete is nonsensical. EotE is a complete game and so is AoR, it's like buying Dark Heresy and then Deathwatch, that's why I used that example. The rules for the two are identical, the skills and talents cross the two platforms and so does the majority of the lore regarding the Warp and Demons and the Imperium. Now, there are some differences, just like there are differences between Edge and Age. But the core is the same. So one of the best things about this beta is that you get to buy AoR like you would a supplement, for $30 instead of $60 in over half a year; most supplements cost between $30-60 anyway. But if you don't have Edge and have no desire to play it (just like if you never wanted to play a lowly acolyte to an Inquisitor [Dark Heresy] but always wanted to be a Space Marine [Deathwatch]) then just get Age of Rebellion because it will let you play as Rebels, or wait for Force and Destiny if you only care about Jedi.

You have to stop thinking of Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion as one game, they are two different games that are cross compatible thanks to using the same rules set. Just like Dark Heresy and Only War, or Deathwatch or Black Crusade, or Rogue Trader.

When I mean incomplete, I mean that I prefer one generalized Core, not "different games" that are actually redundant core rulebooks of the same game system and game world but just with material focusing on particular character types.

In the WEG version of the game (and in many other RPGs), you could make practically anything you wanted with the material provided. You had complete stats for Star Destroyers, Alliance cruisers/fighters, freighters, scouts, Jedi - it was a generalized core rulebook for the system and universe. There were then tons of supplements that provided further material on particular subjects that were of interest to you, but none of them were reinventing the wheel and reprinting the base game just to give you access to that material.

I am honestly confused now, because that doesn't make any sense to me. You'd rather have one core book and tons of supplements that expand on the core book and that's good. But having three core books (for three different but compatible games) so that people can just play the game they want, and then have a few supplements for those games (so people can expand on the game they want without getting shoehorned stuff from other games) that is bad? You are on one hand saying that WEG put everything you need in one book... but then saying on the other that they had a bunch of supplements to cover all the other things that weren't in the core book...

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I am honestly confused. I have no experience with that system. But I have a lot of experience with DnD and the Warhammer 40K line, and Pathfinder, and some other smaller lines and they all seem to fit this bill. A core book and supplements. And then many put out different games with "re-skins," Like Saga, it was just DnD with a Star Wars paint. I thought I got what your problem was and addressed it, but now after you said this, I don't know.

Edge of the Empire has everything you need to play the game, and so does Age of Rebellion. They are complete games and have supplements and are compatible.

Not sure how else to explain it. Can you buy EotE and play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided? Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial? Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing a Jedi in EotE? Can you play an Imperial? All that was possible with the WEG/D6 core rulebook, because it provided a full Star Wars experience.

That's what I mean by a generalized Core. A core rulebook with everything you need to make most any type of character or campaign, with supplements that add bonus material should you choose. D&D didn't have a Fighter Class Game, a Bard/Rogue Game, a Holy Game, and a Magic Game all rehashing the same core rules but adding classes/items for that particular class.

Yeah but why should FFG follow the same old formula of the previous versions of the game which one of the major complaints of those games were that Jedi were always too powerful and the games seemed really more focused on this (although Saga edition did make things easier to do without Jedi...The Jedi were still overly more powerful than the rest of the classes)? Why follow the same ole formula when they could do something different, which they did?

I disagree they all do this. AoR is reprinting the entire core rules to add elements of the Rebel Alliance (and stats for Imperial material). If you'd read what I said, the fact that I would prefer a full generalized Core book with EoE and AoR supplements, THAT is what other RPGs tend to do, and the model that I prefer. I don't have a problem with RPG supplements, but that's not what this is.

I did read what you said, but your assumption that because AoR reprints many of the rules found in EotE means that neither is complete is nonsensical. EotE is a complete game and so is AoR, it's like buying Dark Heresy and then Deathwatch, that's why I used that example. The rules for the two are identical, the skills and talents cross the two platforms and so does the majority of the lore regarding the Warp and Demons and the Imperium. Now, there are some differences, just like there are differences between Edge and Age. But the core is the same. So one of the best things about this beta is that you get to buy AoR like you would a supplement, for $30 instead of $60 in over half a year; most supplements cost between $30-60 anyway. But if you don't have Edge and have no desire to play it (just like if you never wanted to play a lowly acolyte to an Inquisitor [Dark Heresy] but always wanted to be a Space Marine [Deathwatch]) then just get Age of Rebellion because it will let you play as Rebels, or wait for Force and Destiny if you only care about Jedi.

You have to stop thinking of Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion as one game, they are two different games that are cross compatible thanks to using the same rules set. Just like Dark Heresy and Only War, or Deathwatch or Black Crusade, or Rogue Trader.

When I mean incomplete, I mean that I prefer one generalized Core, not "different games" that are actually redundant core rulebooks of the same game system and game world but just with material focusing on particular character types.

In the WEG version of the game (and in many other RPGs), you could make practically anything you wanted with the material provided. You had complete stats for Star Destroyers, Alliance cruisers/fighters, freighters, scouts, Jedi - it was a generalized core rulebook for the system and universe. There were then tons of supplements that provided further material on particular subjects that were of interest to you, but none of them were reinventing the wheel and reprinting the base game just to give you access to that material.

I am honestly confused now, because that doesn't make any sense to me. You'd rather have one core book and tons of supplements that expand on the core book and that's good. But having three core books (for three different but compatible games) so that people can just play the game they want, and then have a few supplements for those games (so people can expand on the game they want without getting shoehorned stuff from other games) that is bad? You are on one hand saying that WEG put everything you need in one book... but then saying on the other that they had a bunch of supplements to cover all the other things that weren't in the core book...

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I am honestly confused. I have no experience with that system. But I have a lot of experience with DnD and the Warhammer 40K line, and Pathfinder, and some other smaller lines and they all seem to fit this bill. A core book and supplements. And then many put out different games with "re-skins," Like Saga, it was just DnD with a Star Wars paint. I thought I got what your problem was and addressed it, but now after you said this, I don't know.

Edge of the Empire has everything you need to play the game, and so does Age of Rebellion. They are complete games and have supplements and are compatible.

Not sure how else to explain it. Can you buy EotE and play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided? Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial? Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing a Jedi in EotE? Can you play an Imperial? All that was possible with the WEG/D6 core rulebook, because it provided a full Star Wars experience.

That's what I mean by a generalized Core. A core rulebook with everything you need to make most any type of character or campaign, with supplements that add bonus material should you choose. D&D didn't have a Fighter Class Game, a Bard/Rogue Game, a Holy Game, and a Magic Game all rehashing the same core rules but adding classes/items for that particular class.

Yeah but why should FFG follow the same old formula of the previous versions of the game which one of the major complaints of those games were that Jedi were always too powerful and the games seemed really more focused on this (although Saga edition did make things easier to do without Jedi...The Jedi were still overly more powerful than the rest of the classes)? Why follow the same ole formula when they could do something different, which they did?

Honestly if Jedi were overpowered in WEG/D6, the GM was more to blame than anyone. I never played the d20 version of Star Wars. As to why should they not do something different, I never said they shouldn't, I only said that I dislike facets of the game broken into multiple redundant games and therefore don't plan on buying it.

Also to your point, we don't know if Jedi will be overpowered compared to characters made with EotE or AoR classes. Unless you're implying that you can only play Jedi in the specific Jedi game - in which case the idea of certain character types not being able to be played except with like types in their particular game is even more of a turnoff for me personally.