Also I agree it is up to your own personal tastes but its fun to discuss it with others it helps to point out flaws in your own vision and look at 40k in a different way then you did previously.

That's true - it may provide new ideas from new perspectives, and at the very least it serves as information for anyone who may not yet even be aware of conflicting information and interpretations!

Personally, I think one should be cautious when comparing 40k to the modern world, for example when you mentioned intelligence wings. Alternate options to your suggestion would be that they simply lack this kind of department because the IoM prefers a brute force approach and because Warp travel and time distortion make gathering intelligence on a location almost totally useless - or perhaps the Navy does have an intelligence wing and it's just not mentioned anywhere, in which case you are free to simply invent one if you like, just like countless novel authors inventing stuff from time to time. For the Guard, at least GW material mentioned dedicated scouting units, such as the Asgardian Rangers from the Armageddon 3 background. "Fostering pro-Imperial sentiments" before the IoM officially arrives with an invasion force, on the other hand, is said to be what the Orders Sabine are all about.

But all this stuff, including Naval transportation capacity and how many Inquisitors there are and what they do, all depends on which books you read, so it's no wonder just about anyone has a different opinion there. A solid canon being non-existent when it comes to such details is both the blessing and the curse of this franchise ...

Did you ever read the Movie space Marine stats from white dwarf 300?

Hmmh ... did you read them?

"Thankfully, most people understand the concept of dramatic license, an amusing little technique that involves exaggerating or ignoring facts, physical laws, and general plausability to keep things entertaining. Space Marines are embellished in fiction, where their heroism and invincibility are accentuated."

- introduction to the WD Movie Marines rules

GW's fluff is based on and built around the rules, hence various Codex quotes regarding the Marines being dependent on assistance from the Imperial Guard "if an enemy is too numerous or too well entrenched", or stuff like Rogal Dorn saying that one Astartes equals ten Guardsmen.

I'd say if the Space Marines in the tabletop would be held back by concerns of balancing, a rather easy solution would be to simply up their points cost, like how it was done with GKs. Besides, there's a reason it's called "Movie Marines" rather than "True Marines" or "Actual Marines".

The truth is that there is no truth - at least not an objective one. There is GW's version of the Space Marines, then there are novel Space Marines (several versions of them, depending on whether they are protagonist or antagonist), videogame Space Marines, FFG Space Marines ... and they are all equally valid .

Pick the one you like most, just be aware that not everyone may agree with your choice.

If nothing else, Space Marines do NOT benefit from our usual Human advantage; there is not an unlimited number, and availability, of them. Some numbers might reflect that there are more Imperial Guardsmen in the Jericho Reach than there are Space Marines in the entire universe. Even IF a whole Chapter could crush my military force, or potentially conquer my world, I won't have to face a whole Chapter; just a small assortment of squads. They might come in, ace me and my best units, but then they will withdraw, and allow the Guard to pulverize what's left, to go onto the next big battle. In my experience, if Astartes have to remain longer than a magical butter zone, their limited numbers, and occasional casualties, wear them down, and their efficiency falters. You can't throw wave of wave at them at my own men, waiting for my ammo reserves to run dry.

Definitely a surgical strike team an a terrifying one.

In my 40k space marines are basically invulnerable.

They wouldn't be worth the 20 year wait to produce one soldier otherwise.

Also when face with a prolonged conflict the marines would switch to using geurilla tactics.

They aren't just tougher and stronger than gaurd their smarter. They've waged war for centuries against worse foes they know what to do.

First of, the Marines int the TT are somewhat balanced to the rest of the game. Their description in the books and such however differs. After all, how much can a SMurf benchpress with his S4 compared to a S3 human? A S8 Greater Daemon should then be able to benchpress continents/planets.

As usual: very abstract numbers.

SMurfs could conquer a whole planet in less than 24 hours back in the days of the Unification under the Emperor.

Even now they could. After all, who is going to do something when your planets whole military gets whiped out in only 24 hours? This sheer demonstration of prowess would shut up most opposition, if something still crops up use a lance strike and flatten that part of the planet. They don't sleep, they can't get killed with normal guns, most poisons don't work ...

Why do you assume there's such a huge gap between the different Strength values? There are humans that are S2 (Cultists) and S4 (Straken), too.

But ... yes, of course the numbers are an abstraction. They, like all the rules, are merely the means by which the game attempts to govern the encounter between two or more hostile factions. That doesn't mean that they need to be discarded altogether, though - and like I said, the game came first. The fluff was crafted around it.

No offense, but I for one just cannot subscribe to such a Marine-centric interpretation of the setting. It just feels as if it would lower the value of everything else that makes up 40k, and more like some fantastic epic rather than a living, breathing universe where the different puzzle parts need to fit into each other.

In my eyes, GW has largely succeeded in doing so, very much unlike certain licensed products - I don't know which sources you are basing your preferred interpretation from, but in Codex and WD fluff, Space Marines do need sleep (WD #247, Catalepsean Node), and they can very well get killed with normal guns (C:AoD, Space Marine power armour). If the Marines have conquered entire worlds in short period during the Great Crusade, they did so because they had many times their number compared to M41, and even back then there was the Imperial Army to support them.

Lastly, it takes "only" 6 years to make them (unless you also count their childhood before recruitment, but this would apply to any random Guardsman as well), compared to, say, the 17 years of a Schola-raised Battle Sister ... but really, if you'd allow a suggestion, rather than mentioning the "production time" I would rather point to the arcane and oft-misunderstood technology that is required to make a Marine, as this is what truly sets them apart from other human beings.

What makes the Space Marines special, then, is (for me) not some sort of invincibility or I-Win-button (with which they are sometimes portrayed, especially in licensed material), but rather their role as the Imperium's elite shock troops who, rather than just being ridiculously superior to anyone else (which I think is boring) win their battles by being somewhat better than anyone else and combining this with a high mobility that allows them to attack almost anywhere and any time they wish, allowing them to mostly pick their fights to their own conditions and make full use of their force projection, overwhelming their opposition by pinpoint strikes using the toughest, meanest infantry unit the Imperium may place on a single square meter.

Because the Space Marines are the scalpel. If you just want a hammer that steamrolls anything in its way, that's what the Imperial Guard is for. And in my opinion, the setting feels richer for this kind of variety.

This really ought to be its own topic, though. I think Space Marines are a rather controversial subject because they and their background seem to make up the majority of 40k as a whole, which throws up the legitimate question of whether 40k IS all about the Space Marines, or whether it ought to be more. I am firmly in the latter camp, but in the end it remains a matter of taste, especially for players who grew up not on GW's own material but rather the novels etc that, as the White Dwarf article referenced above has already said, "accentuate the Marines' heroism and invincibility".

I think that such a focused perspective either suppresses the greater picture or collapses once you bring it into contact with fans of other factions - but given the popularity of Space Marines, the fans of this one army are in the unique position of "not having to care" because there's enough material to support and cater to their preferred vision. It still makes for a poor common ground, however.

Just a little comparison:

In my DH1 CRB (i do not partake in the beta) according to the rules for lifting and carrying

a normal human (SB 3, TB 3) can carry 36 kg and lift 72 kg. Sounds very average and believable, no?

a Marine with his SB 8 and TB 8 can carry 675 kg and lift 1.350 kg, much closer to his description in the fluff.

In the TT the difference is just 1 point of S ....

Let's not extrapolate to S8 and 10 that Greater Daemons and Carnifexes can have.

The numbers in the TT are more abstract than the ones used in the RPGs. The RPG is not ment to be balanced in that regard since it is focussed use other details than large battles.

And i do not have a 'Marine-centric' view, but i still consider them a powerful force. If deployed well they can wipe out thanks to their superior capabilities and equipment to the IG/PDF the whole military of any average planet (or just present day Earth) in less than 24 hours.

I never said that it was easy for them nor that they would not take any casualties. But their space superiority, ability to teleport/shock-drop-capsule anywhere faster than you can conventionaly get anywhere on the planet help them to react near instantly to any upcroping problems. They just need to hit hard and fast enough to scare every one shitless.

FFG is portraying a lot of things differently - not just the epicness of Space Marines. They are a lot more vulnerable in GW's own Inquisitor RPG, for example. And I'm sure you too have heard of how ridiculous the lifting and carrying rules scale with higher numbers in Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, etc...

Ironically, I also have a polar opinion regarding this supposed "neutrality" of the RPGs, given that player characters are obviously protagonists here, given such perks like Fate Points, Squad Modes or Horde Rules. Is it not true that the rules of the games differ from one another, all depending on what you are playing? To me, this makes the RPGs more comparable to the novels, whereas the tabletop is the one and only place where every single faction is treated equally.

That being said, a Space Marine in GW's Inquisitor game is as vulnerable to a lasgun as he is on the tabletop, which also replicates the fluff description of power armour protection from Codex background. Coincidence? Or rather consistency in the minds of the original creators of this franchise?

Anyways, I don't think anyone would dispute the Astartes being a powerful force .. we just seem to have different views regarding what makes them so, with my preferred interpretation lending about equal importance to their tactics and equipment as well as genetic enhancements, whereas I think a lot of people just see "+++ damage and invul" when looking at the Marines. To me, that's an unjustful oversimplification (which also leads to what I consider exaggerated expectations regarding their capabilities), both unfair to the Marines as well as towards anyone else. That being said, it is also true that some outsourced products - most notably the so-called "bolter porn" novels - do cater to it, and at the end of the day all our opinions are equally valid.

For what it's worth, FFG at least listed the many little gadgets found in Marine power armour that may, depending on the situation, lend its owner an edge, just like the vast majority of their genetic enhancements are only situationally useful. It's a shame how often all of these things tend to be disregarded in debates about SM battle prowess, in favour of focusing on the few effects that are "always active".

FFG is portraying a lot of things differently - not just the epicness of Space Marines. They are a lot more vulnerable in GW's own Inquisitor RPG, for example. And I'm sure you too have heard of how ridiculous the lifting and carrying rules scale with higher numbers in Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, etc...

Ironically, I also have a polar opinion regarding this supposed "neutrality" of the RPGs, given that player characters are obviously protagonists here, given such perks like Fate Points, Squad Modes or Horde Rules. Is it not true that the rules of the games differ from one another, all depending on what you are playing? To me, this makes the RPGs more comparable to the novels, whereas the tabletop is the one and only place where every single faction is treated equally.

Anyways, I don't think anyone would dispute the Astartes being a powerful force .. we just seem to have different views regarding what makes them so,

For what it's worth, FFG at least listed the many little gadgets found in Marine power armour that may, depending on the situation, lend its owner an edge, just like the vast majority of their genetic enhancements are only situationally useful. It's a shame how often all of these things tend to be disregarded in debates about SM battle prowess, in favour of focusing on the few effects that are "always active".

I like this argument. And I do tend to ascribe those stories of marines taking whole worlds on as being not lies but exaggerations.

And I think that adds to the setting, George RR Martin adds those kind of details in his books and it adds t the authenticity because jut like i our n world you can't trust everything you hear and some of it's clearly bunk.

It seems I've been to devout of an imperial citizen ad just swallowed the propaganda without thinking it through.

Can't argue with that.

I often choose to regard individual incidents as either exceptions or legends - or perhaps a bit of both, with some epic battle becoming legend specifically because it was so awesome, so that something exceptional is made even more inspiring. Kind of like that stereotypical "Viking habit" of embellishing stories. Or the difference between the Greek legend of the 300 and what truly happened during the Battle of Thermopylae (specifically in terms of inflicted casualties, and the omission of all those auxiliary troops).

For me, it always depends how an individual battle's record compares to GW's general description of the participating forces. It's probably also notable that the individual battles are recorded and listed in the Codex specifically because they are so amazing, rather than being examples of what is considered "normal" for that army.

It's also interesting that these legends exist for just about any army. For example, the Witch Hunter Codex has a bit about Battle Sister Canoness Aspira conquering "a hundred worlds with a force of only a thousand warriors" - yet to me, this is just another example of the above, simplifying the campaign by leaving out things like a lot of uncounted Frateris Militia and/or Imperial Guard who have just faded from history in spite of the value of their participation. That's the fate of the underdog, I suppose. Only makes it all the more grimdark.

That being said, I'm also sure that the Imperial Guard has its own legends, if one were to simply look long enough. The narrative focus on IG fluff lies on winning wars by sheer quantity, but there have to be some stories about exceptional individuals or small units - what about, for example, that bit in Codex Planetstrike regarding Colonel Straken strangling a CSM Lord to death? After hiding in a pond of toxic sludge for days, only to assault the enemy commander as he took off his helmet? An amazing story, but I have a feeling that even though every legend has a bit of truth at its core it went a bit differently.

"Sea Turtles mate! It ain't so easy is it?!" - Captain Jack Sparrow

On a more serious note: Continuuing the often misunderstood tale of Thermopylae; The Greeks Actually numbered anywhere from 1500 to 7000 and yet the still stood off an army of At least 70000 to possibly as many as 300,000 persians for three days! Not bad when you consider the most advanced weapon on the field was the bow and arrow and the battle was fought primarily with hand weapons and spears! It is even more impressive when one realises that King Leonidas was likely between 60-70 yrs old at the time he fought at Thermopylae! These are historical numbers NOT the legends and yet the deeds of the Spartans are still VERY impressive!

Bringing this back to the current thread: I believe there could be a set of "perfect" Tactical/geopolitical conditions that would have allowed an Astartes company to conquer a world in a single night! Imagine if you will:

An Imperial world's nobles, dissatisfied with the amount of assets the Imperial tithe is demanding, decide to secede from the Imperium. Their opinion of their own popularity is somewhat exaggerated but they maintain full control of the PDF. Since the Noble's are arrogant they simply make the declaration and assume the secession is done. Of course PDF units are sent to strategically important facilities to ensure they are held but not before local Adeptus Arbites forces secretly sabotage the orbital defence guns around the capital and send off an Astropathic distress signal.

In the region happens to be an Astartes strike cruiser battlegroup carrying a Battle company. The Strike cruiser silently slips into low orbit before orbital defences even know it's there. The Astarte Brother-Captain is given tightbeam intelligence about the location of the rebellious Nobles from the Aformentioned Arbites Partisans. Realising that low orbit defences are not a concern, The Captain decides on a substantial 'decapitation strike' via Drop pod and Thunderhawk. Since low orbit defences (Including Or maybe only Auspex) were sabotaged it comes as quite a surprise to the Heretics to find an entire Company of Space Marines at the rebel headquarters! Strangled cries for help from rebel commanders go unanswered as entire battalions of PDF are "Nuked from orbit" (Just to be sure! )by the Strike cruiser holding Geosynchronus position over the capital city. The rebel leaders and their immediate defenders are quickly anihilated by the space Marines and the entire battle is over in twenty four hours. After that the Arbites retake control until a new Imperial governor can be appointed. And thus the legend is born!

Note that much like Thermopylae, This scenario is more a testament to quick strategic and tactical conditions rather than outright Badassery! Granted, The Space marines would have an almost terrifying superiority over the local PDF (As did the Spartans over the average Persian light infantry.) they faced but they hardly faced the entire army of the world directly! Of course, Facts certainly wouldn't stand in the way of Imperial progandists spinning it that way!

Though the IG is often described as a rather regular army I would most definitely do not make the mistake of comparing them to real-life armies and just scale them up. As long as there is no very urgent emergency they are the very elite of a planets fighting force, destined to stand against what ever the vast galaxy might throw at them.

Also the IG keeps several advantages that that make this force unique in some way (As every TT army).

Their strength are numbers, but unlike Orcs they are a disciplined army. The concept of combined arms is brought to perfection and only seems to fail if the story demands an incompetent leader for the protagonists to brag about. In fact the IG is a very efficiency driven organization where your noble peers are literally irrelevant outside your own regiment once you left your home world, if that was not clear the standard issue commissar would like to remind you of that.

Also the IG brings the nimbus of "unmatched" firepower, given the time and resources. The only exceptions would be the adeptus astartes that dominates the "fire-power per individual" category and the adeptus mechanicus with the peak of possible firepower concentrated at one location. The difference is that the IG might not seem the best, but they are good at everything and that is what makes them so efficient.

They own enough firepower to fight everything in the galaxy, they are so numerous that reinforcements are highly available making them perfect to engage in wars of attrition where they cant just crush the enemy. Their usage of combined arms negates every major weakness under regular circumstances and if you start to compare them your average guardsman is not that far behind all those xeno abominations. And now we have not even talkend about the several "elite" regiments.

If we now talk about actual combat and the aftermath of a conquest we have to take a look at the Situation of WH40k. Most planets keep their population around super-cities (I am not even speaking of Hives). That is a complete different situation as it was in your example of nazi-germany that was a large area with a huge distribution of its population around the whole country. That way the front could be stretched and resistance was always possible for the lack of accurate bombing possibilities. When an IG army is able to deploy the mostly have air-superiority in that area resulting in the destruction of nearby defensive positions. After that the target are these population centers that might not be wiped but sieged. And this is the core of the "problem". For a siege you dont know millions of soldiers. You just need as many as you could actually task with siegeing. And for that you only need enough men to prevent an outbreak. After that just give the ordonance the time it needs.

Take the Castigation of Derondis where a few regiments of the Deathcorps acted as honor-guard for the Munitorum investigation after the planet did not pay its tithe. The investigators were killed by the mob and that was enough reason for these regiment to set up their encampment in the hills and start laying siege on a primary hive. After five years the hive surrenderd, after two more there where no life-signs and just to make a point the deathcorps continued its bombardment for another three years until there was just rubble and dust left.

Also a hive, though it might not seem like that, is the perfect occupation zone if you do not utterly destroy it in a ten years lasting act of righteous vengeance. A hive is literally a prison, more often than not divided by different levels and natural choke-points. All you need is keeping the upper regions and the most essential facilities, paired with a decent garrison. Then support some more or less faithfull crime-lords in the slaughter for might and power that will definitely emerge in the lower regions to get some stability and start restoring the planets productivity. You can not expect to controll every area of a hive, that does not even work on the most righteous hive-world of the imperium.

So yea, sometimes it looks odd but mostly it is explainable to some degree. And at last we had our fucktasticly big battles on Cadia and Armageddon, right?^^

I have always considered Space marines to be the high tech descendant of the medieval knight.

Just consider; knights are bigger, stronger and healthier than the average peasant footman due to a better diet. They are trained from a very young age in the use of arms, tactics and horsemanship.

They are equipped with the very best armour and weapons possible and have the advantage of a warhorse.

Typically, peasant footmen didn’t stand a chance against them as they lack decent armour, decent weapon training and an appreciable knowledge of tactics. The only true rival was another knight. And thus they dominated most battles of the time. Yet that didn’t mean they always won or that they were considered invincible. Archers could decimate them. Peasants could defeat them using surprise or advantageous ground.

And so it is for the space marine versus PDF’s. If allowed to fight on their own terms (e.g. surgical strikes) they are bound to win with all the advantages accruing to them. But if they are held in place and then bombarded or counter-attacked by armour….my money would be on the PDF.

In a straight up open field battle where armor comes into play you are going to get owned by the IG against almost any opponent! Space marine tanks (Other than maybe the VERY RARE Land Raider) are not going to stack up well against the mighty Leman Russ! I Think Ranoncles has it right. In their Element the Space marines will seem Invincible! Take them out of that element and, while still tough, They are definitely mortal! That was sort of my point in the previous example! Space Marines have very High mobility and are without a doubt the best troops fielded by the Imperium but, there is a reason that they are not the ONLY troops fielded! Large engagements where attrition becomes a greater concern are better handled by the Imperial guard. Additionally, Longer wars require larger numbers of troops spread out across longer fronts than the Astartes are capable of covering. In Large planetary wars, The Space Marines (when available) will be used to achieve specific High-value objectives but it is the guard that will prosecute the overall conflict.

Case in point, the White Dwarf article about the Third War of Armageddon mentioning Space Marine Chapters pulling out during the so-called Season of Fire as the changing environmental conditions and the resulting trench fighting interfered with the Marines' own mobility-focused style of warfare. First to go were the Relictors, and Imperial Navy ships almost shot them down for attempted desertion before Dante allowed them to leave.

Notable in this conflict might also be the fate of the Celestial Lions, whose entire Chapter was, as a result of "faulty intelligence", surrounded by numerically superior Ork forces. Only 98 Marines managed to escape from the circle, and for all intents and purposes the Celestial Lions as a whole are now considered destroyed.

What sort of roles do you put the IG in for a protracted engagement against an insurgency? Like, a planet-wide one. Would they just march across everything and burn it all down, sorting it out later, or would they set up garrisons and sortie?

What sort of roles do you put the IG in for a protracted engagement against an insurgency? Like, a planet-wide one. Would they just march across everything and burn it all down, sorting it out later, or would they set up garrisons and sortie?

Depends on things like the nature of the opponent(s), the IG high commanders, the specific regiments present and the nature of the planet in question.

Planet Swamp, pre-industrial revolution. Planet wide, visiblity is a joke.

You have 4 regiments. Drop Troops, Mechanized Infantry, Lighty Artillery and Brown Water Infantry. The battlegroup leader is a brigadier with one large Naval cruiser and the rest are basically gator freighters.

The enemy is mostly mutants and suspected psykers, perhaps a chaos cult is growing there, but intelligence doesn't have the all the answers. They're very adept at melee and hiding in the swamps.

The locals are terrified of the enemy, and it's difficult to tell them all apart.

As mobile as possible (since 3-4 of 4 focus on mobility).

Mobility also potentially allows control of the distance-of-engagement, which is really useful against melee.

With suspected psykers and possibly a chaos cult, it'll probably be "Shoot on sight, give no quarter." Not because it's the best choice, but because the Imperium of Man is like that. Flame weapons are likely to be used, because that how large clumsy militaries tend to go against guerrilla groups.

The locals are terrified of the enemy, and it's difficult to tell them all apart.

I assume that means it's hard to tell the enemy mutants from the locals?

If so, isn't it likely that the locals are mutants in general? In which case everyone are targets, surely?

Let's approach this from another angle: What does the Imperium want from this planet? War is, after all, merely the continuation of politics by other means, not something you'd engage in because you have nothing better to do (Orks excluded). What is so important to the Imperium that it cares about the insurrection?

Is it because there's something valuable on the planet that is part of the Imperial tithe? Fortify the sites where it's produced, screen a part of the local populace for mutation and rebel sympathies and uplift their technology to a point where they can hold their own against the enemy.
Is it because the planet doesn't deliver its psykers to the Black Ships? In that case, dividing and conquering may be a possibility - seed the idea that the Imperium is willing to tolerate the mutants as long as the psykers are extradited and no chaos cults are formed and make examples out of everyone who doesn't obey those dictates.

You're quite right, I made several unspoken assumptions as well. My bad..

Tenebrae, actually, i misspoke. The Mutants are the insurgents, the locals aren't really mutants, but they come from a very tough and vicious stock, so it's hard to tell them apart in the poor visibility.

The Imperium would want this world back in order because the off-worlders who are developing it want to preserve their stake, and the world itself has been a long time tithe world, the men and women gained from there being exceptional for the most horrific battle-fronts.

Essentially, the resources that are being fought are budding infrastructure (and the profits therein), as well as exceptional soldiers-to-be.

What sort of roles do you put the IG in for a protracted engagement against an insurgency? Like, a planet-wide one. Would they just march across everything and burn it all down, sorting it out later, or would they set up garrisons and sortie?

The Imperium does tend to support a plan of reduce and rebuild, much of the time. Almost anything might be "tainted", and so almost everything can be wrecked, looked over by the right kind of priest, reconsecrated, and reconstructed. If it isn't a sacred relic, or a similar site, its fate is irrelevant; just knock it down, get the corruption inside, and we'll put a new slum where the old one was, later. Populaces are much the same. if you can rely on Humanity to do one thing, it's see the straights they're in, and try to get away from it by knocking boots with someone like-minded, thus frequent pop growths.

If the world, building, or person isn't nigh-on holy important, it is expendable.

What sort of roles do you put the IG in for a protracted engagement against an insurgency? Like, a planet-wide one. Would they just march across everything and burn it all down, sorting it out later, or would they set up garrisons and sortie?

I am no general. My only military experience is being a logistical officer as a conscript and that was almost 30 years ago .

But I am an avid student of history so I prefer to look to similar situations in the past. When considering a planet-wide insurgency, three obvious examples spring to mind and all neatly span technological eras which coincide with how you can view the Imperial Guard (or Arse Militarium or whatever GW comes up with... )

There is the current insurgency in Afghanistan where high-tech NATO/US forces fight a losing battle against the taliban. The taliban make a good example of a tribal, poorly equipped force which has both a solid knowledge of terrain and wide support amongst the population versus highly mobile, extremely well equipped troops with pulverising firepower on call.

The second example would be Tito in Yugoslavia against the Germans & Italians during WWII. The axis had high tech for the period (aircraft, tanks, APC's) which seem similar to the IG stuff while Tito's men were decently equipped with light arms (stolen, Yugo issued or supplied by the British).

The final example would be the mother of all guerilla wars; the Peninsular War of 1807-1814. Low tech black powder armies clash with no appreciable difference in armament, albeit the regular forces have much higher training and cohesion obviously.

Just a quick google search should give you some background on how the insurgents fought and what counter measures the occupiers used.

"The size of the Emperor's Hammer matters not. Instead, concentrate on wielding it correctly."

~Brother Codicier Phaeros of the Blood Angels