I agree with everyone above about setback removal being pretty beneficial, and working for the story, and that setbacks should be present pretty regularly.

But just from a mechanical perspective, even if you consider adding a boost to be flatly better than removing a setback, it's important to consider where those things apply, and what the practical impact is. Here's my read:

- Boost addition is typically far more limited. Speaks Binary, for example, is not going to start any "That's so borken!" arguments around the table.

- Setback removal is typically pretty broad

- Boost addition seems common for support talents covering things like leadership actions

- Boost addition also seems common in places where difficulty is the primary issue, mainly because it comes from opposed checks. e.g. Stalker.

I recommend, as the GM, to start introducing regular setback dice early, before such talents are bought. That way, there's already an incentive for the players to buy those talents, since they can already foresee the benefits.

Yeah, I've actually had this come into play a lot. I have a Kubaz thief and I keep being like

"Well, he gets one setback because he hates aliens, and another because he's looking to meet his quota..."

"...And I remove both from my two ranks in X relevant talent."

And then I'm like hell yeah you do.

I've not read the thread (yet), but since I just created the EXACT same post by itself, yeah - I'd say that I agree.

Here's what I said previously:

So here's my Politico, oodles of charm and charisma out and turning out to be fun in combat despite barely knowing what end of the blaster points toward the enemy. I'm generally loving her - but man, there's a couple of talents in her tree that straight out suck: the Kill with Kindness and Plausible Deniability, the ones that remove the black setback dice.

Okay, we haven't played a ton so my perceptions might be skewed, but I don't think I've ever seen the black dice come up yet on any of my cons or schmoozing or talking to people rolls. In short, I cant help feel like I'm pissing away points buying these. "Woo, another straight up <><> difficulty roll! Huzzah!" (and believe me, at this early stage of the game, I'm crazy hungry for every character point I can get my hands on - so to spend them on something pointless really burns)

Anyone else feeling this? Should I talk to the others and see about house ruling it as it's boost die instead of setback? Perhaps change the rule allow turning it from a Difficulty Die to a Setback Die?

As said in that thread, I feel it's more of an issue with GMs being inexperienced with the system right now and not using setback dice with enough frequency. It also means your PC can take more risks in conversations (Are you sure you want to say that it'll give you a setback die? Sure do I can ignore it and I like that my character is so slick I can insult the Imperial official without him realizing it)

As said in that thread, I feel it's more of an issue with GMs being inexperienced with the system right now and not using setback dice with enough frequency. It also means your PC can take more risks in conversations (Are you sure you want to say that it'll give you a setback die? Sure do I can ignore it and I like that my character is so slick I can insult the Imperial official without him realizing it)

I think many of the GMs that picked up the core rulebook never ran the beginner game. As a result they didn't get the feel for how the dice were used in that before playing the full version. Most of these probably have experience with other RPGs where environmental conditions raise the difficulty so mistakenly add more difficulty dice instead of setback dice. It is just going to take time and experience to get the full hang of the way EotE works.

As said in that thread, I feel it's more of an issue with GMs being inexperienced with the system right now and not using setback dice with enough frequency. It also means your PC can take more risks in conversations (Are you sure you want to say that it'll give you a setback die? Sure do I can ignore it and I like that my character is so slick I can insult the Imperial official without him realizing it)

I think many of the GMs that picked up the core rulebook never ran the beginner game. As a result they didn't get the feel for how the dice were used in that before playing the full version. Most of these probably have experience with other RPGs where environmental conditions raise the difficulty so mistakenly add more difficulty dice instead of setback dice. It is just going to take time and experience to get the full hang of the way EotE works.

Yeah, exactly. It's a paradigm shift, and one that's admittedly tough to get used to, but I think once folks do, it'll be more fun for everyone.

I normally hate the argument of, "Oh, you're just playing your game wrong," but given the way the system is built, it sounds like copious setback dice are intended to be the norm, so that these dice-removing talents get their opportunity to shine.

Plus, the ability to just toss setback dice in, from the GM's perspective, is a license for creative improvisation. It's much easier to justify adding a setback for, "Okay, this guy just plain does not like the attitude you're taking with him" than it is to suddenly jack up a random guy's Cool and Discipline out of spite.

There's definily a learning curve for me as a GM. I'm used to just thinking, hmmmm, this is a crotchety dude, who won't really want to help, so will make him difficult. Three purples.

I should probably go more along the lines of, "they're trying to get something moderate out of him, so difficulty is two purple, but this dude is particularly crotchety, add a black, he has no real incentive to be helpful, add another black." The difficulty ends up similar, but there's more chances for the characters to eliminate blacks through talents, or just good role playing and creative ideas.

It's going to take some getting used to.

Yeah, I am with you there. I too am used to just choosing a higher difficulty rather than adding penalties, but that does seem how they want us to do it

When a character is just starting his adventuring life , doing something like opening a locked security door is just going to be difficult enough without any distractions, later on you can set them up so that they can attempt the same task, while under a blaster fight using an external terminal in a thunderstorm, with one arm out of commision due to crits.

As a GM you first have to begin setting up an incentive for the PCs to want the talent ie make lots of opportunities to use as wide a variety of skills with all varying degrees of difficult from the really simple to insanely difficult.

Example Security door locked , you are on the outside of the building. Have characters try to come up with a way to get to this terminal.

A deciept roll to the guard nearby, he's quite vigilant so add a setback to the check, add another if the request comes from a male (see below)

A charm roll from a female , as he is quite a ladies man, and also chivalrous in nature. Give a boost on this one, perhaps an extra die if romance is on the cards somehow

Stealth roll with a bonus as its night and there is a storm

Outright violence, just break out the blasters, however setback on these due to visibilty

Athletics checks, possibly also with stealth(with a bonus since guards look up less) to go catburglar and get on the rooftops

Medicine check to try and slip him a mickey finn, also with deciept to convince him you are drunk and hto convince him to have a drink, setback on the deciept roll since he is on duty

Leadership with setback to convince him you are a commanding officer above him(could also use deception for same reason).setback here is because he hasnt seen you before(you tell him you're his new boss and yoj are just going in to set some things up flr your 'first day'

Athletic opposed with setback(also with boost die) to just rac him to the door and get in before he can catch you. Technically both atheltic levels have a setback on the due to weather but in an opposed check this would go as a boost on th PCs side.

Now after you get to the door, depending how you got there there a numbe of options here.

Computers roll, with 2 setback , one for visibility and weather and one for the fact you dont have any info on the system, add another setback if you didnt get to the terminal with enough time to get the slicer gear out,

Athletics with setback to open the security door with bare hands , high difficulty on this one also,maybe another setback due to door being wet.

A simple skullduggery check, except one setback due to visibilty. (Despair brings lightning on the terminal.

Leadership/deception/charm, perhaps even coercion with varying degrees of setback to convince the guard to open the door for you.Difficulty based on how credible it is.

Gunnery to set blast charges, setback due to weather, setback due to needing to keep the blast quiet and to only blow the lock and not the full door.enauring that the ingress is not noticed.

This is just one example, you have to give the players a chance to shine on the skills/talents they chose, and a I said you have to give them incentive also to want those talents as well. These rolls should make them feel like heroes everytime they manage that. If the talents help this to happen the you give them th satisfaction from having made those choices.

Its the same idea in the beta (eote) thread about the utility belt talent. If you want someone to be interested in this you have to be careful what you let players find or have with a destiny point, since being free with destiny point usage to get items could quite easily render this talent useless. So you have to limit the normal destiny point usage so that it is nowhere near as good as utility belt, or that you only allow such use of destiny points sparingly. For example if you read the example in core booke for destiny point usage the team use a destiny point to get breathing apparatus , however next time you might not allow it (since they should have learned from their last mistake. However , you cannot really refuse someone with ability belt to do the same thing since its boundaries are clearly defined.

Thats my take on it, of course ymmv.

Edit sorry for the overly large post

I've instituted a house rule in my games where you 2 setback removal can turn into 1 boost. This way, when there aren't setback for whatever reason, players still feel as though their talents actually do something. Most of the time, people are still removing setback dice, but in the few instances it's come up, it's gone over very well.

YMMV of course, but I've found that it works out pretty well for us.

Do you house rule that talents that grant 1 boost can remove two setback? That's the only way to be fair but it probably causes more duplication of talent abilities than was intended.

Personally, if I had a character with Convincing Demeanor instead of just lying to the guard at the gate that I was supposed to be allowed through in order to inspect the shipment, I'd also add something like "and I was told you would have 50 credits for me for my time" so when the GM rules that would add a setback die I would point to my Convincing Demeanor.

I think there'd be more than one for that, and/or some automatic upgrades based on degree of ridiculousness, otherwise the game breaks down. A person of average Willpower and no ranks in Discipline (that'd be me...I have no Discipline ) wouldn't fall for that, never mind a guard whose default mode is mistrust.

But I am not a skilled deceptionist or speaker so I can't articulate how I would do about doing something like that but that character could. That's always been the issues with social skills the player might not be able to actually articulate what he says or does with even an iota of what his character could do. He could spin some sort of elaborate tale about how his plans with his girlfriend were ruined all because his boss called him in to do overtime (commiserate with the guard whose evening is obviously not much fun either) and explain how his boss promised that the guard's company would give him some overtime credits for helping them out. The guard dips into petty cash.... (or maybe instead of money, he explains how in his rush he forgot to bring the security codes with him and could the guard help him out so he doesn't have to run all the way back and lose another hour). And yes, there could (should?) be more than one setback die in this example, but still it won't be as bad as if he didn't have the skill. Also, I think that since the Beta they want us to use setback dice more than upgrading the challenge dice. I get the feeling that challenge dice upgrades are supposed to be more from talents and abilities that specifically call for them.

All I am trying to point out is if you have a talent that lets you ignore a setback die and your GM doesn't assign one, work with him or her on pushing the envelope of what you are doing so that there is one. Again, it's not something I would encourage EVERY time, but then I try to make sure that naturally there are setback dice in the scene, especially when the player spent the XP on the talent. Maybe in this case I could have ruled that it was the guard that was called in for overtime and had his night ruined and now he is in a foul mood which gives a setback die to all social skills attempted with him.

Typically I will have thought about the NPC's personality and then assign setback or boost dice depending on what the characters say or do that might trigger those penalties or bonuses, so normally the PC's talent is just sufficient without trying such a ridiculous example that I gave

Skimming through this thread, it does sound like that the main issue is GMs not making frequent enough use of setback dice, which as others have stated can reflect all the "little hassles" that would make a given task more difficult.

Don't have the proper tools for the job? Setback die

Your falsified documents aren't using the most current format? Setback die

Trying to convince a pack of bounty hunters to leave you be when they've got you outnumbered & outgunned? Multiple setback dice.

Trying to fly your speeder through a crowded street? 2 setback dice, 3 if it's really crowded.

Trying to rally your allies to fight back against a giant slavering beast that just took down the toughest member of the group? Definitely worth a setback die, if not a couple of them.

I had a similar issue of having come off of playing/running d20 games for so long that I had to get over the mental hurdle of "a harder task means increasing or upgrading the difficulty" when really this game is designed so that in most instances, you'd instead add a setback die.

If coming from a d20 mindset, think of the setback die as being analogous to the "-2 penalty for unfavorable circumstances." Such a thing makes the task a bit more difficult, but it's not a major issue that would make the task border on the impossible.

I would strongly recommend taking a look at the Long Arm of the Hutt, especially the very first act where the players are dealing with all of the issues aboard their new ship. Setback dice are added to many of the thngs the characters may do because of noise, smells and other adverse conditions on the ship. Seeing how they used the setback dice in that adventure may help understand how to make better use of them in your own.

Since you mention it, in the act you comment one, there is also en environmental effect that upgrades the difficulty instead of adding setback dice.

Yeah I wish they had stayed consistent there. They implied in one place that upgrading difficulty should be a destiny point, talent or ability and there they do an upgrade instead of setback dice.

Maybe that's the special ability of Trandoshan opera? :-)

Yeah I wish they had stayed consistent there. They implied in one place that upgrading difficulty should be a destiny point, talent or ability and there they do an upgrade instead of setback dice.

Not just those situations, it depends on the circumstance. Upgrades are for when the consequences of a task have the potential for Despair. Examples:

Hacking a secure computer while it's in your home, but you don't have the luxury of a lot of time: Hard difficulty

Hacking a secure computer while it's in your home, with additional diagnostic tools: add 1 or 2 boost dice

Hacking a secure computer while it's in your home, and your kids are running around screaming and playing tag and wiping their dirty fingers on everything: add one or more setback dice (one for each time your kid says "what's this, Daddy?")

Hacking a secure computer connected to an alarm system: upgrade once or even twice

Hacking a secure computer connected to an alarm system, and you can hear the rancor coming down the halls: upgrade once or even twice, add setback dice.

Edit: Really they expect you to use your judgement.

Yeah I wish they had stayed consistent there. They implied in one place that upgrading difficulty should be a destiny point, talent or ability and there they do an upgrade instead of setback dice.

Not just those situations, it depends on the circumstance. Upgrades are for when the consequences of a task have the potential for Despair. Examples:

Hacking a secure computer while it's in your home, but you don't have the luxury of a lot of time: Hard difficulty

Hacking a secure computer while it's in your home, with additional diagnostic tools: add 1 or 2 boost dice

Hacking a secure computer while it's in your home, and your kids are running around screaming and playing tag and wiping their dirty fingers on everything: add one or more setback dice (one for each time your kid says "what's this, Daddy?")

Hacking a secure computer connected to an alarm system: upgrade once or even twice

Hacking a secure computer connected to an alarm system, and you can hear the rancor coming down the halls: upgrade once or even twice, add setback dice.

Really they expect you to use your judgement, not a fixed

I was starting to reply to this but you did an excellent job. Upgrades are applied when the GM determines that the condition is not just a hinderance to success (you add a setback die) but actually increases the riskiness of the attempt (uprade to a challenge die)

I believe that's left over from the beta. I am afb but I could have sworn there was a sentence there that pretty much said to limit upgrades to abilities and talents. I know that from the beta discussion they talked about the differences between setback and upgrading, but thought that changed. I guess I am wrong but still think people are upgrading when they should be using setback dice which impacts these skills

Edit:ah, I see my confusion. You mean adding more difficulty dice vs upgrading them. The box on page 22 implies only upgrading with talents and destiny points, but yes, I can understand deciding an Average difficulty task becomes a Hard one. I feel we should be trying to use Setback dice more than we are. I know, coming from a D&D background my default instinct is to increase the difficulty rather than to impose penalties. The box on page 21 seems to suggest using setback and boost dice as a first step

I had a similar issue of having come off of playing/running d20 games for so long that I had to get over the mental hurdle of "a harder task means increasing or upgrading the difficulty" when really this game is designed so that in most instances, you'd instead add a setback die.

Another "D20 mindset" problem here is that in D20 there is little to no practical difference between a penalty and an increase in difficulty, whereas in this game there is a considerable difference between the two, not least of which is that there are numerous talents that remove penalties.

I believe that's left over from the beta. I am afb but I could have sworn there was a sentence there that pretty much said to limit upgrades to abilities and talents. I know that from the beta discussion they talked about the differences between setback and upgrading, but thought that changed. I guess I am wrong but still think people are upgrading when they should be using setback dice which impacts these skills

Edit:ah, I see my confusion. You mean adding more difficulty dice vs upgrading them. The box on page 22 implies only upgrading with talents and destiny points, but yes, I can understand deciding an Average difficulty task becomes a Hard one. I feel we should be trying to use Setback dice more than we are. I know, coming from a D&D background my default instinct is to increase the difficulty rather than to impose penalties. The box on page 21 seems to suggest using setback and boost dice as a first step

You are correct. There are three things you, as the GM, can do to influence the liklihood of success on a roll.

1) Add difficulty dice. This should reflect the base difficulty of the action without taking into account circumstances. For, example, cracking the combination lock on a storage locker vs cracking the lock on bank vault.

2) Add setback dice. You are trying to pick the combination lock in the freezing cold with numb hands.

3) Upgrade a difficulty die to a challenge die. The lock is booby trapped and fiddling with it is likely to cause the locker to explode.

At least that is how I have been running it in my game and I have not had any problem with my players feeling their talents are a waste of time. They are very grateful for anything that gets rid of "those horrible black dice" muahahahaha.

That is true - increasing the difficulty by 2 or giving a -2 penalty is essentially just making it 10% harder. Because of that my natural instinct was to just increase the target number (in difficulty). That's the instinct I am trying to fight against with this system

I believe that's left over from the beta. I am afb but I could have sworn there was a sentence there that pretty much said to limit upgrades to abilities and talents. I know that from the beta discussion they talked about the differences between setback and upgrading, but thought that changed. I guess I am wrong but still think people are upgrading when they should be using setback dice which impacts these skills

Edit:ah, I see my confusion. You mean adding more difficulty dice vs upgrading them. The box on page 22 implies only upgrading with talents and destiny points, but yes, I can understand deciding an Average difficulty task becomes a Hard one. I feel we should be trying to use Setback dice more than we are. I know, coming from a D&D background my default instinct is to increase the difficulty rather than to impose penalties. The box on page 21 seems to suggest using setback and boost dice as a first step

You are correct. There are three things you, as the GM, can do to influence the liklihood of success on a roll.

1) Add difficulty dice. This should reflect the base difficulty of the action without taking into account circumstances. For, example, cracking the combination lock on a storage locker vs cracking the lock on bank vault.

2) Add setback dice. You are trying to pick the combination lock in the freezing cold with numb hands.

3) Upgrade a difficulty die to a challenge die. The lock is booby trapped and fiddling with it is likely to cause the locker to explode.

At least that is how I have been running it in my game and I have not had any problem with my players feeling their talents are a waste of time. They are very grateful for anything that gets rid of "those horrible black dice" muahahahaha.

That said, the boxes on page 21 and 22 are implying that we should not be upgrading difficulty dice to challenge dice all that often. Sure, if there's a bomb in the lock that's a special, planned GM event. We shouldn't be going, ok, that's an average difficulty task but because of X I am ruling that you turn one of those purple dice to red. It clearly states we shouldn't be arbitrarily upgrading difficulty dice unless a talent or destiny point was used

That said, the boxes on page 21 and 22 are implying that we should not be upgrading difficulty dice to challenge dice all that often. Sure, if there's a bomb in the lock that's a special, planned GM event. We shouldn't be going, ok, that's an average difficulty task but because of X I am ruling that you turn one of those purple dice to red. It clearly states we shouldn't be arbitrarily upgrading difficulty dice unless a talent or destiny point was used

You seem to accept the basic premise, so I'm not sure why you think people are acting "arbitrarily". Upgrading is a judgement call, it depends on what X actually is, and it doesn't have to be a "planned GM event". Like most GMs, my plans usually go out the window once the players start, and if they decide they want to sneak into the local stormtrooper barracks when all my breadcrumbs lead out of town, well, there's some potential for Despair. Ergo, upgrade.