You, the player, do not have the option to Target Lock Kagi under these circumstances. You are not getting a free target lock action ala Dutch Vander, that would allow you to pick a target in range. You are being handed a target lock via a different mechanism that can only apply to the target you shot at.

This is much less about Kagi and much more about Fire Control. Nothing on Kagi's text would allow him to reduce or eliminate any restrictions your ship may have. There is no text on Kagi that allows your ship to target lock any ship other than the one that you shot at. In fact, the only text that refers to the entire situation is the part where Kagi only requires you to TL him "if able".

You are not able. There is no possibility for you to gain a TL vs. Kagi using a Fire Control System (unless you shot at him, of course). So it seems to me this situation is actually pretty cut and dried. Kagi says if able, you are not able, so no need to TL him.

Hypothetically, lets say there were a weapon that would allow you to target multiple targets. If you were to fire at Kagi and Darth Vader using a Fire Control System, then Kagi's ability would require you to put the TL on him.

I'm divided on this one, but my instinct tells me that Kagi prevails over FCS.

My reasoning is that it could interpreted that FCS only 'pre-declares' for you which ship you will lock (the target of your attack), whereas Kagi's ability, as written, is a 'general' type effect that affects all Target Locks, no matter the source, and takes effect whenever you get a target lock.

In other words, FCS gives you the option of acquiring a target lock on a predetermined target, yes, but Kagi's ability triggers whenever you get any target lock, no matter the reason or your original target.

So, unless Kagi is beyond range 3 or you already have a target lock on him (both conditions makes you unable to lock him), I'd say that you must target lock him.

lets say you have to target lock Kagi if able

so to make the question harder, say my b-wing has a target lock on Kagi. he fires at a tie fighter. will he now be able to change his target lock to the defending tie fighter since he already had a target lock on Kagi?

I'm divided on this one, but my instinct tells me that Kagi prevails over FCS.

My reasoning is that it could interpreted that FCS only 'pre-declares' for you which ship you will lock (the target of your attack), whereas Kagi's ability, as written, is a 'general' type effect that affects all Target Locks, no matter the source, and takes effect whenever you get a target lock.

In other words, FCS gives you the option of acquiring a target lock on a predetermined target, yes, but Kagi's ability triggers whenever you get any target lock, no matter the reason or your original target.

So, unless Kagi is beyond range 3 or you already have a target lock on him (both conditions makes you unable to lock him), I'd say that you must target lock him.

lets say you have to target lock Kagi if able

so to make the question harder, say my b-wing has a target lock on Kagi. he fires at a tie fighter. will he now be able to change his target lock to the defending tie fighter since he already had a target lock on Kagi?

Well I'm pretty sure you can't have 2 target locks except via the weapons engineer. Although I'm unsure if you're ever allowed to simply cancel or discard your own lock. And then even if you could, this question comes back up as Kagi might take the target lock straight back after you attack the Tie.

I see the arguments for both sides as valid, but I'm leaning towards Kagi winning.

As the FCS grants the lock after the attack, Kagi steals it afterwards as his trigger is "when an enemy ship acquires a target lock".

If you really don't want to taken lock Kagi, you just use the "may" clause and not use the FCS until Kagi is dead or out of range.

FCS is already quite valuable, but Kagi winning in this instance makes him quite a bit more attactive, compared to Jendon who (at least personally) seems to be the MVP ("'most valuable pilot") of the Lambdas in increasing TIE offensive potential.

Kagi seems to be designed as the "Bane of the B-Wings", taking their target locks, messing with their FCS, using a Rebel captive to give them stress when you finally decide that he must die, whether with torpedoes or with that Autoblaster.

Kagi seems to be designed as the "Bane of the B-Wings", taking their target locks, messing with their FCS, using a Rebel captive to give them stress when you finally decide that he must die, whether with torpedoes or with that Autoblaster.

That's making a HUGE assumption that he messes with FCL at all, which is very much up for debate. Right now. In this thread.

I have sent in a rules request regarding FCS and Captain Kagi interacting with each other and how does it resolve.

I can see both sides to this argument but cut and dry with FFG seldom is. I'm in the Captain Kagi camp on this one as it leans more to how other rulings have come out from FFG.

I think you're trying to read Kagi as saying "...must acquire the lock on Kagi instead". That's not what it says. Kagi doesn't change the rules for performing a lock, he doesn't let you lock on to any other ship that you couldn't normally lock.

The same thing applies if you already have a lock on Kagi. When you select who you're going to lock, you can't lock a ship which you already have a target lock on (via the FAQ). So if you have a lock on Kagi and are able to acquire a new lock, Kagi is not a valid target for that lock - so you're not able to lock Kagi, and can pick any other target.

I think there's a bit of having-and-eating of the cake here. Everyone agrees that if you're out of range of Kagi you can't lock him, so his ability doesn't affect you... right? But the argument seems to be that if you're in range, then Kagi overrides any other restrictions which might apply to the target lock, and you can lock Kagi even if he wouldn't normally be a legal target.

But why would there be that difference? By the time you pile everything up, Kagi either is a legal option to lock, or he isn't. There's nothing in his ability that references or even hints as to the reason he is or isn't legal, much less overrides those, much less overrides them selectively.

It could be considered a timing issue.

For Kagi to be used at all a target lock must be decleared. In the current situation we are using DCS to aquire the lock.

FCS must still go through the 4 steps to aquire the lock.

When this happens Kagi kicks in. Not before the lock is established.

Up until Kagi kicks in the intended target is the 'defender' from FCS.

Now Kagi becomes the target and goes through the aquire lock steps.

The 'if able' of Kagi is left a mbiguous as per FFG standard opperating procedure to generate forum debate

Fire-Control System
After you perform an attack, you may acquire a target lock on the defender.

Captain Kagi
When an enemy ship acquires a target lock, it must lock onto your ship if able

To acquire a target lock , follow these steps:
1. Determine if the enemy ship is within range
by taking the range ruler and measuring the
distance from any point on the active ship’s
base to any point on the enemy ship’s base.
2. If the enemy ship is at Range 1, 2, or 3, the
active ship may acquire a target lock on that ship.
3. Place one red target lock token near the enemy
ship to indicate that it is targeted.
4. Place the blue target lock token that matches
the red token’s letter near the active ship to
indicate that it is locking.

When acquiring a target lock, the player must first
declare the intended target. Then, he measures
range to the declared target to see if the target
is within legal range. If the target is in range, the
ship performing the action must acquire a target
lock on the target. If the target is not in range, the
player may declare a different target, or he may
declare a different action.

Just thought of another argument against Kagi forcing a lock on him in this situation.

It creates a loophole, wherein a B-wing can take a pot shot at another ship and still lock onto Kagi for a focus/target lock shot the next turn. Say with a advance proton for intstance. In that case Kagi's ability would be a hinderance rather than a help because it plays into the rebel players hand.

Where is the loophole?
Turn 1: B-wing target locks and attack TIE fighter, gains a TL through FCS on the TIE wich then gets assigned to Kagi.
Turn 2: B-wing focuses and uses an Adv prot torp on Kagi. Turning him into a rapidly expaning cloud of disassociated particles.

The B-wing would have been able to do that to it's original target anyway.

Kagi appear to be the imperial Biggs.

I think you're trying to read Kagi as saying "...must acquire the lock on Kagi instead". That's not what it says. Kagi doesn't change the rules for performing a lock, he doesn't let you lock on to any other ship that you couldn't normally lock.

The same thing applies if you already have a lock on Kagi. When you select who you're going to lock, you can't lock a ship which you already have a target lock on (via the FAQ). So if you have a lock on Kagi and are able to acquire a new lock, Kagi is not a valid target for that lock - so you're not able to lock Kagi, and can pick any other target.

This sounded really interesting at first, however I'm not sure this situation could come up, except possibly with a weapons engineer, which might let you leave a lock on Kagi whilst locking someone else as well.

If you already have a lock, as far as I'm aware the only way to get rid of it is to spend it, even if you don't actually reroll any dice (FAQ). However can you simply discard the lock? If not, the only way to get rid of a lock on Kagi is to attack him, and if you can't therein lies his trap.

Edit: that is, a trap until your torpedoes knock him down to size.

Kagi seems to be designed as the "Bane of the B-Wings", taking their target locks, messing with their FCS, using a Rebel captive to give them stress when you finally decide that he must die, whether with torpedoes or with that Autoblaster.

That's making a HUGE assumption that he messes with FCL at all, which is very much up for debate. Right now. In this thread.

I already proposed my reading of the rules, and as others have now suggested, we've all stated several reasonable arguments for both sides, and we'll have to wait for word from FFG. It was my informed assumption, happy to be corrected by FFG (if and when they do)

Where is the loophole?

Turn 1: B-wing target locks and attack TIE fighter, gains a TL through FCS on the TIE wich then gets assigned to Kagi.

Turn 2: B-wing focuses and uses an Adv prot torp on Kagi. Turning him into a rapidly expaning cloud of disassociated particles.

The B-wing would have been able to do that to it's original target anyway.

Kagi appear to be the imperial Biggs.

Because the balancing factor of FCS is that the target lock has to go on the last thing shot at. A free target lock is quite good but in this case it's tempered by taking place against one speciffic foe that is most likley already limping from your first shot. If Kagi takes that target lock, dispite not being a legal target (Because he isn't), then it allows the ship to swap targets on the fly. Instead of a free lock on a ship that might already be nearly dead and not worth a Target lock/focus attack you can now have that ship start slamming an entirely new target while someone else mops up the wounded one.

While I can see how it can be a little off due to wording, it's still pretty clear.

Was the B-Wing shooting at Kagi? No. Then he is not the defender and therefor not a valid target. If he's not a valid target then due to the "if able" on Kagi he can't steal the TL.

Vonpenguin - But isn't that the entire function of Kagi's ability? To draw locks. I don't see this asan over power of the FCS, but as a Kagis ability working overtime to protect the rest of the imperial ships.

Qapla187 - I agree Kagi is not a valid intended target of FCS. In fact the rebel player should go though all the steps to target the original defender and even place the target lock token. It is at THAT point, "When an enemy ship acquires a target lock" , that Kagi steps in and checks to see if that target lock can then be applied to him. FCS, having applied a target lock, no longer comes into it.

My view is purly from a timing perspective of aquiring a target lock comes before Kagis ability.

Point of view only and happy to change my mind

Three things.

1 - You can acquire a Target Lock if you already have one. You must target lock a different ship (you cannot target lock a ship you are already target locked onto), and the new target lock will replace the old one.

2 - I understand the requirement to Target Lock Kagi because of his text, but I think that in order to interact in the way people are suggesting (FCS winds up putting a TL on Kagi) you would need to ignore both the fact that FCS specifically does not allow Kagi to be the target of that TL, and the wording on Kagi's card that says you are only required to target him "if able".

3 - Another similar interaction related to Kagi is to have a Target Lock already on him, then take a Target Lock action.

According to the rules on page 9,

"Target lock tokens are only removed if the locking ship either acquires a target lock on a different ship or spends the target lock during the Combat phase."

Also, according to the FAQ

"Q: If a ship already has a lock on an enemy ship, can the locking ship acquire a target lock again on the same enemy ship in order to trigger an effect (such as “Dutch” Vander)?

If you are already locked onto Kagi, you can still legally take a Target Lock action. However, Kagi is NOT a legal target for that lock. Therefore, if you already have a TL on Kagi, you are able to take a new TL at another target and Kagi's ability will not prevent it.

I don't believe it is correct to say that Kagi is not the intended target for FCS. Intentions aside, Kagi is not in any way a legal target for FCS. That is the difference. Had your ship been acquiring a TL through some other means, one that made Kagi a legal alternative, then Kagi would certainly overrule them no matter what the intentions were (as you said).

KineticOperator

1- understand and agree

3- understand and agree

2- understand and am not ignoring the text. The issue is the text is open to interpretation

I see the "if able" as the rebel player must go through the steps of aquiring the lock to see if they can. If out of range , he is not a valid target at step 1.

Added as well is the FAQ of not being able to reaquire a lock on the same ship, therefore also "not able"

The same problem would arise using R5-K6.

"After spening your target lock, [roll], immediately aqquire a target lock on the same ship...."

The "same ship" being similar to "defender"

Once again I would see that as R5-K6 card aquiring the lock on the original target and is then finished with. That lock then triggers Kagi's ability.

Page 9: "Target lock tokens are only removed if the locking ship either acquires a target lock on a different ship or spends the target lock during the Combat phase."

@Darkheart: The "When" timing keyword is usually used to apply to an entire long-run process, such as Wedge's "When attacking" or Dark Curse's "When defending". In this case, "When an enemy ship acquires a target lock" means that Kagi's ability is active for the entire process of acquiring the lock, covering all 4 steps. It may not affect the entire process - just as Wedge's ability only actually affects one step of the attack, Kagi only affects one step of the target lock process (target selection).

Vonpenguin - But isn't that the entire function of Kagi's ability? To draw locks. I don't see this asan over power of the FCS, but as a Kagis ability working overtime to protect the rest of the imperial ships.

Qapla187 - I agree Kagi is not a valid intended target of FCS. In fact the rebel player should go though all the steps to target the original defender and even place the target lock token. It is at THAT point, "When an enemy ship acquires a target lock" , that Kagi steps in and checks to see if that target lock can then be applied to him. FCS, having applied a target lock, no longer comes into it.

My view is purly from a timing perspective of aquiring a target lock comes before Kagis ability.

Point of view only and happy to change my mind

Yes. That's his function. But If his effect applied to FCS then he'd be in actuality lifting a restriction.

You're comment to Qapla is wrong. Kagi doesn't take the lock away from an ally, he restricts himself to the only legal target. Since in the case of FCS he was never a legal target to begin with he cannot effect it.

Perhaps all the years of deciphering GW rules haven't gone to waste.

Well, that's the whole point of the discussion, seeing if Kagi's ability makes him always a legal target. (since you MUST lock him)

As I said before, "If able" can be interpreted in two ways:

"If able" when you acquire your original target, under the same restrictions, or...

"If able" when Kagi's ability triggers, being a new legal mandatory target, overriding restrictions.

Some of us read: 'if able when you was selecting your old target'

Some of us read: 'If able now that Kagi is mandatory target'

And the matter of fact is that both interpretations can sustain themselves pretty well.

I had forgotten about the small astromech cutie, but If Kagi's ability makes him legal target, it will also affect R5-K6 ability.

A succinct summary Jehan (as much as you can condense so many posts).

So has anyone heard back from FFG? Will we have an unofficial ruling whilst waiting a few more months (hopefully less) for the next FAQ? It would be nice to have an earlier update to make the new wave playable for its general release (down in Aus we still have a few weeks until most of our suppliers will get any).

Honestly I think it's pretty clear cut. Kagi doesn't make himself legal. If, out of the available options, Kagi is amoung them, then he is the choice. If the choice is one ship then no matter where Kagi is then he can't take it for that ship. To go back to the biggs example, if you have a lock on Luke and try to fire a homing missle while Luke and Biggs are within one the missile doesn't hit biggs, you're forced to choose a weapon that can attack biggs, if you don't have one then you can hit luke. The same applies here, FCS and R5 aren't target-lock actions, they are free target locks aquired if the listed conditions of the defender living or you rolling an evade are met. Since there is no way to lock onto Kagi in that situation his power doesn't kick in.

Some of us read: 'If able now that Kagi is mandatory target'

The supposed 'legality' of Kagi would come from its own ability. The condition is absolute: 'When an enemy acquires a target lock' . It doesn't differentiate between acquiring a TL as an action, as a free action, or as an effect.

Then, the ability triggers. You must lock him instead of your intended target. It is mandatory. That's where the 'legality' of Kagi comes from.

And then, the clause of conflict. 'if able'... But if able when? When you were trying to stablish your original target lock and under the same conditions? Or 'if able' now that Kagi's ability has stepped in, and you are forced to target him?

In the first case, Kagi's ability would only work on 'Target lock actions' because almost any other Target Lock effect comes with its own set of restrictions that would make Kagi illegal. In the second case, the ability operates in an absolute manner, IMO, more according with its wording.

Good point on the redundancy, but it is still entirely possible for it being nothing more than that, a redundancy. A redundancy to remind you that you are still subject to range limitations and/or an already existing TL on Kagi. For example, a normal ship 'would not be able' to target lock Kagi beyond range 3., However a ST-321 Lambda 'would be able'.

I'm not sure why it being an action (or not) would have anything to do with it. The process for acquiring a target lock is the same regardless of whether that process originates via an action, free action, or just granted ability like Dutch. Who, incidentally, is the counter to your "other set of restrictions" point - Dutch allows a ship to acquire a target lock without it being an action and without any other restrictions.

Abilities only change the rules they say they change. ST-321 is a good example - it specifically changes the rules concerning the range you can acquire a lock at. Kagi does no such thing. He cannot implicitly change the restrictions on a target lock just because you have to target him when you can.

Biggs was brought up earlier, and in a bit of a flawed way, but he is illustrative here. You have to target Biggs if you can. That doesn't change the firing arc rules, or the range requirement, or the need for a target lock in order to fire a missile at him.

And that's really the key. You're assuming that Kagi is changing the rules to make him a valid target for the lock, but his ability doesn't actually do that. Abilities in CCG-style systems don't have that sort of second-tier effect. They change only what they specifically say they change, nothing more.