Alright. Noted. Can't believe I made that folly with the red squadron pilot.

To be perfectly honest, I'm testing the survivability of the HWK-290 unit at max offense/defensive upgrades. I want to see what it can do.

I think you'll find that at best that just turns into a more expensive, less maneuverable X-Wing (with some fun tricks), or a relatively weak Y-wing.

Again, it's clearly designed as a support ship. Trying to turn it into a do-everything front-line brawler probably isn't going to end well. And the more points you sink into it, the more appealing a target it becomes. It will never become particularly hard to kill, although if that's your thing then yes, Flight Instructor is probably a good move (but voids other far worthier crew matchups like Recon Specialist with Kyle).

I love the ship, it is one of my favorites. It looks great and has wonderful senimental value to me, as a major fan of Dark Forces. It was hard to fly. It was hard to use as support, and it took up a lot of points to make it work. But, just because its hard doesn't mean it lacks value. I think there is something very special about it that will take practice to bring out. I love it for how it makes me think about the game.

WOO! The Moldy Crow worked excellently! I used some X-wings to escort it, two, but since I never got to use their cards, they don't matter! The configuration for the crow I had worked out perfectly.

My father used Darth Vader, two TIE Interceptors, and one TIE Fighter. Alongside some odd asymmetrical tactics. Had it not been for his rough die rolls, I'd have likely had a bad day. But generally speaking, keeping an escort for The Crow worked out amazingly well.

Well in other words by saying that the HWK can't hold its own in the frontline, we could also say that it is not a really good ship.

There are very limited things to do for it for several reasons.

It needs a turret perhaps even more than a Y-Wing needs it but as the blaster turret is very bad or as you need the focus token for other ships in Kyles case, you are tied to the ion turret. If you don't take a turret you pose no threat and no matter how much support you put into a HWK your enemx will just focus the combat ships around it which is not difficult since no HWK pilot has a defensive buff to offer except for Kyle handing out a focus, and then laugh at the remaining support ship.

In short i don't believe a HWK can ever offer enough to your list without a turret, and with a turret it's too expensive.

I would really have loved to play those HWKs even with the interesting buffs idk if it makes any sense.

Jan Ors is maybe an exception because an additional attack die is good for buffing ships that have 3 attack dice anyway just to punch through those stealthed up 3 agi ships more reliably. But then for the cost of one Jan Ors plus a ship worth buffing you can as well get a lot more attack dice by buying other ships!

Well in other words by saying that the HWK can't hold its own in the frontline, we could also say that it is not a really good ship.

There are very limited things to do for it for several reasons.

This is clearly a case where A does not equal B

Just because the ship isn't a good frontline fighter, does not mean it's a bad ship. The only way that would be true is if you were trying to use it as a frontline fighter.

The HWK in this game is designed to be a support ship. It's best use is having it help other ships do their job better. It's the same thing as the Lambada shuttle.

Clearly the HWK isn't a auto-include type ship. It's something you have to make a plan on how to best use if you include it. But that does not make it a bad ship or not worth the points.

I suppose this may not be the best example to contribute but...

Look at Captain Jonus; his points are 22 but his ability does not benefit him at all. It isn't necessarily that he is over pointed; rather you need a more balanced build to make his points worth it. The same holds for Captain Kagi, by himself everyone would target him anyway but you need a more balanced build to make him worth his 27 points before upgrades. Or even Howlrunner why spend 18 points when I could get Mithel for 17 and his ability actually does something. Howlrunner on her own is a waste of points or... broken maybe?

This is the point balance I talking about. The point system only works as it's applied to the across the entire game but may appear to break down if you compare two specific items without proper context, balance and synergy. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I hope this helps,

Just my 2 cents...

[Edited for spelling]

I really wanted to get the hawk to work and beef it up as good as. Kind of worked with this fun list. I'm calling it 666 because they all have PS 6:

Kyle K

Moldy Crow

Blaster Turret

Chewbacca

Shield Upgrade

Garven Dries

Ibitsan

Push the limit

HLC

100 points

Bouncing the Focus token between Garven and Kyle is hEaps of fun.

Well in other words by saying that the HWK can't hold its own in the frontline, we could also say that it is not a really good ship.

There are very limited things to do for it for several reasons.

It needs a turret perhaps even more than a Y-Wing needs it but as the blaster turret is very bad or as you need the focus token for other ships in Kyles case, you are tied to the ion turret. If you don't take a turret you pose no threat and no matter how much support you put into a HWK your enemx will just focus the combat ships around it which is not difficult since no HWK pilot has a defensive buff to offer except for Kyle handing out a focus, and then laugh at the remaining support ship.

In short i don't believe a HWK can ever offer enough to your list without a turret, and with a turret it's too expensive.

I would really have loved to play those HWKs even with the interesting buffs idk if it makes any sense.

Jan Ors is maybe an exception because an additional attack die is good for buffing ships that have 3 attack dice anyway just to punch through those stealthed up 3 agi ships more reliably. But then for the cost of one Jan Ors plus a ship worth buffing you can as well get a lot more attack dice by buying other ships!

The problem here Force is that you aren't taking into account the fact that if a named HWK is played as a support in a well flown list then the offensive, and in kyle's case defensive, boost that it will be handing out will tip attrition in its team's favor. The HWKs inability to be a major damage dealer is only an issue if you have nothing else to deal damage. but it's lack of offensive punch can be an actual boon. For example you would avoid the HWK because it can't deal reliable damage without a turret. I welcome that. I rather have my low damage HWK buff my team all game and get my points worth than have it blown up by the third round of combat, which is what happens to support pilots in frontline ships in my experience. Dutch, Howlrunner, Garven. Lando is the only one that tends to last and that's only because the Falcon has so many bloody hit points.

Yes there's a chance that I'll be left with just Jan or Kyle against a high agility ship or relatively fresh Firespray but there's also a chance that the boosts they give mean that Soontir Fell and Howlrunner were vaporized before they did any major damage and I'll tango to victory. Anything is a risk. One simply has to decide how much risk they are willing to put up with for how much reward.

Turrets don't boost the cost that much overall either. Jan with an ion is still cheaper than a naked ten numb with the same pilot skill and a very nice upgrade, and a generally easier to make use of pilot ability. Worse base ship but at least the agility is better .

I think the HWK is a good ship overall. Some strengths, some weaknesses. The generic is certainly not a great ship but the named pilots are all pretty good. I think people just need to get used to keeping one of their ships out of the melee as long as possible. It's not a smooth fit with the conventional wisdom of the community from the first two waves.

I've been looking forward to the HWK and trying variant HWK lists... one of which is

http://x-wing.voidstate.com/view/15838/self-support

I ran a slightly different version of this last night and it did better than I thought it would.

Jan Ors, Adrenaline Rush, Blaster Turret, Saboteur

Kyle Katarn, Swarm Tactics, Blaster Turret, Recon Specialist, Moldy Crow, Engine Upgrade

Roark Garnet, Blaster Turret, Recon Specialist, Engine Upgrade

99 pts

The Engine Upgrade really helped maneuvering out of firing arcs. I don't think bumping Jan from 8 to 12 is worth the cost, but just threw on Adrenaline Rush for fun. I did use Saboteur to blow off some Advanced Proton Torpedos. Jan held back a bit from the other two ships, and sadly I forgot to use Jan's special ability the whole game. Too much going on.

I did use the regular guns once, Jan shooting at Dark Curse. A hit even. I think the three HWK list isn't completely terrible. It might even be better than an all A-Wing list.

I want to try this version of Jan with the same Kyle and Roark above:

Jan Ors, Veteran Instincts, Ion Cannon Turret, Nien Nunb

I think you're alternate Jan will serve you much better. She can shed the stress her ability gives her easier and doesn't need actions as much as your original build so she can still do something even if she is stressed.

I want to try this version of Jan with the same Kyle and Roark above:

Jan Ors, Veteran Instincts, Ion Cannon Turret, Nien Nunb

Just had a run in with Jan O with Nunb (and other upgrades) and Wedge with some upgrades. Giving Wedge an extra die and him firing first in most cases did me in. The B-Wing didn't even really factor in. Didn't help I flew like crap, but still the handing off dice and Nunb shedding the stress token every round was too much to over come with my lack luster squad. Being able to treat that 4-straight RED maneuver as a green is pretty handy too.

My wave 3 ships arrive next week and I'm really looking forward to flying the HWK-290 now after getting my clock cleaned by a squad with one.

Yeah, I also think chewie migh have a place.

I've been practicing vs dark curse, and engine upgrade is a must, daredevil is pretty awesome on a Hawk too, if you're using the primary weapon or trying to outmaneuver a tie.

I'm glad Self Support functions. Swarm tactics is a tough one, just one may be right. Without it, everyone can get pretty separated, and baiting targets and thatch weaving can get you dark curse's head

Well in other words by saying that the HWK can't hold its own in the frontline, we could also say that it is not a really good ship.

There are very limited things to do for it for several reasons.

It needs a turret perhaps even more than a Y-Wing needs it but as the blaster turret is very bad or as you need the focus token for other ships in Kyles case, you are tied to the ion turret. If you don't take a turret you pose no threat and no matter how much support you put into a HWK your enemx will just focus the combat ships around it which is not difficult since no HWK pilot has a defensive buff to offer except for Kyle handing out a focus, and then laugh at the remaining support ship.

In short i don't believe a HWK can ever offer enough to your list without a turret, and with a turret it's too expensive.

I would really have loved to play those HWKs even with the interesting buffs idk if it makes any sense.

Jan Ors is maybe an exception because an additional attack die is good for buffing ships that have 3 attack dice anyway just to punch through those stealthed up 3 agi ships more reliably. But then for the cost of one Jan Ors plus a ship worth buffing you can as well get a lot more attack dice by buying other ships!

The problem here Force is that you aren't taking into account the fact that if a named HWK is played as a support in a well flown list then the offensive, and in kyle's case defensive, boost that it will be handing out will tip attrition in its team's favor. The HWKs inability to be a major damage dealer is only an issue if you have nothing else to deal damage. but it's lack of offensive punch can be an actual boon. For example you would avoid the HWK because it can't deal reliable damage without a turret. I welcome that. I rather have my low damage HWK buff my team all game and get my points worth than have it blown up by the third round of combat, which is what happens to support pilots in frontline ships in my experience. Dutch, Howlrunner, Garven. Lando is the only one that tends to last and that's only because the Falcon has so many bloody hit points.

Yes there's a chance that I'll be left with just Jan or Kyle against a high agility ship or relatively fresh Firespray but there's also a chance that the boosts they give mean that Soontir Fell and Howlrunner were vaporized before they did any major damage and I'll tango to victory. Anything is a risk. One simply has to decide how much risk they are willing to put up with for how much reward.

Turrets don't boost the cost that much overall either. Jan with an ion is still cheaper than a naked ten numb with the same pilot skill and a very nice upgrade, and a generally easier to make use of pilot ability. Worse base ship but at least the agility is better .

I think the HWK is a good ship overall. Some strengths, some weaknesses. The generic is certainly not a great ship but the named pilots are all pretty good. I think people just need to get used to keeping one of their ships out of the melee as long as possible. It's not a smooth fit with the conventional wisdom of the community from the first two waves.

Still the question really is if a naked Kyle or Jan ors really offer as much to the squadron via their buffs as a combat ship of the same cost. And i really doubt it in some cases. Jan can of course help against certain enemies to penetrate strong defense. But hey if for his cost i had another B or X-Wing i would probably also be able to do so even if shooting 3 attack dice twice is not always as good as rolling 4 dice once in this game. But the additional threat of another combat ship can't be denied.

Regarding Kyle, spending the price of a Rookie just to give one Focus away. Idk if that's worth it. Then if you kit him out even without Turret he costs easily as much as Garven who essentially does the same thing but can also fight.

So i really prefer giving them a turret. It just makes them less of a one-trick pony. I believe they need to be able to pull some of their own weight at least, to have at least some versatility.

I don't underestimate the support they provide, but i will not field a HWK without a turret personally or i'd feel really like playing a gimped ship.

Fair enough. It's true that the optimal HWK probably will have a turret upgrade. I'm mostly saying that it is possible to make them work without it. I know I've disagreed with you quite a bit recently but overall I think we're just coming at the situation from different angles and seeing different things.

And as a geek It is my natural instinct to argue for no real reason .

I like using the HWK as a combat vehicle, oddly enough. With a shield upgrade and a turret, plus the pilot abilities, it's honestly a formidable starship.

With Nunb, any forward becomes a green, so I can get close enough and past firing arcs, and shoot from my behind with an attack of three. Essentially, the HWK is optimally used as a Helicopter (Strafing, circling) or an AWACS (Support, so on.)

I like Ors with Nien Numb and an Ion Turret. Great support ship, just like flying a Y-Wing with the ability to hand out die to another pilot.

I am working up a squad with Wedge, Ors and Ibtisam.

Today I flew Wedge with an R2 and PtL, Ors as above and Ten Numb with FCS and Ion Cannon. It was a good squad, but I think Ibti and some small changes in load out will make it better.

Fair enough. It's true that the optimal HWK probably will have a turret upgrade. I'm mostly saying that it is possible to make them work without it. I know I've disagreed with you quite a bit recently but overall I think we're just coming at the situation from different angles and seeing different things.

And as a geek It is my natural instinct to argue for no real reason .

On another page, the main argument i had recently was about Dark Curse and the Blaster turret ruling. I might overrate him a bit because i constantly see him played now. And a lot of games just come down to him versus a rebel ship with turret in the end, where he always wins. I argued about this because i just find it a really unlucky ruling as i feel that the blaster turret would have been in no way overpowered even without this. Also it makes the first case where you just can't fire a weapon at all in dome cases even if you actually would meet the requirements. I do agree that the wording on Dark Curse actually seems to be in line with the ruling. But i still find that FFG probably lacked a moment of reflection when they did this as it makes lists based around blaster turrets pretty weak (not really obsolete perhaps but still...). But to conclude it after all, this can only be my personal opinion and i am maybe wrong. If you look into the old threads i was one if the very first to ask for a blaster or laser turret. Of course i was excited when i saw it become reality with wave 3. The focus requirement didn't really upset me because after all it can't be made too powerful or they would have needed to make it more expensive. But then Dark Curse on top of that. Just doesn't seem right to me, that's all. And after all the forums are also for complaining and ranting a bit sometimes even if its just about a detail like this, and even if it doesn't change a thing. After all we probabky all merit the Geek stamp just for posting in this forum.

To all those new the the discussion, i don't try to heat it up again, i just tried to explain why i argued about this. Make of it what you want.

I want to try this version of Jan with the same Kyle and Roark above:

Jan Ors, Veteran Instincts, Ion Cannon Turret, Nien Nunb

... Didn't help I flew like crap, but still the handing off dice and Nunb shedding the stress token every round was too much to over come with my lack luster squad. Being able to treat that 4-straight RED maneuver as a green is pretty handy too.

.

Such a conflict didn't come up with the Falcon at least

I want to try this version of Jan with the same Kyle and Roark above:

Jan Ors, Veteran Instincts, Ion Cannon Turret, Nien Nunb

... Didn't help I flew like crap, but still the handing off dice and Nunb shedding the stress token every round was too much to over come with my lack luster squad. Being able to treat that 4-straight RED maneuver as a green is pretty handy too.

.

This raises something- FAQ (p. 5) clearly says that when there are two conflicting effects changing the difficulty of a maneuver, the more difficult wins. I originally assumed that this meant that Numb couldn't change the 4 straight (which is already red) to a green, however is there strictly an "effect" influencing the negative side of this maneuver?

Such a conflict didn't come up with the Falcon at least

The maneuver is red, it's not being changed to red, so there is no conflicting effect. If there as an effect that said treat all straight maneuvers as red maneuvers, then it would conflict with nine nunb and win...

That's pretty clear. A normal red maneuver gets changed to a green maneuver by Nien or R2. No problem with that. But if you do something like Daredevil, it works out differently. It is a maneuver so R2 can maybe change it to green but then it gets switched back to red, unlike with normal maneuvers.

In case of the critical effect that forces you to treat all turns as red maneuvers, same thing. R2 makes some of them green, but the critical effect switches it back to red afterwards.

Thanks. That was worth clearing up in my head (which was where I was on the way to correcting my thinking as I read the previous posts) and two extra greens for Jan is certainly useful.

Although ForceM, the FAQ errata now says Daredevil gets the stress after the maneuver, not changing it to red (which is sort of what you hint at but not quite clear).

The FAQ makes Daredevil a white maneuver, but then says you must take a stress token, so R2 units cannot stop the stress token with Daredevil now.

R2 does change the white Daredevil maneuver to green. That green Daredevil maneuver would remove a stress marker (prior to receiving one) if someone with stress were able to perform the action. No pilot currently released can pull this off, though.

BTW: If you could combine Daredevil with R2 and R2-D2 the action would restore a shield!

The FAQ changed Daredevil. It now states:

So actually it isn't a red maneuver. Rather a maneuver and a stress token.