OK can someone clarify this one for me?

On page 250 of the Core Book, It lists both the Aratech 74-Z (a speederbike with a Light Repeating Blaster attached) as well as the Mobquet Flare Swoop (A more standard speeder with no weapons but a higher cruising altitudeand better handling). The weaponless bike is 6000 credits. The speeder with a light repeating blaster (a 2250 credit Restricted weapon) is 3000 credits and not restricted. Does that seem off to anyone else? Is the price in the book meant to be a "civilian" version with no weapons? Or is the implication that they ONLY come from military suppliers and thus would be hard to get (and therefore the fact that they aren't restricted would then be an error).

Can anyone else weigh in on this for me?

Remember that most of the people in the galaxy, even in the outer rim, are more like Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru than like Luke, Han and Lando. They are miners, farmers, and mechanics not smugglers, Jedi and conmen. As a result they have no need of a heavily armed and armored speeder. So the swoop is going to be much more in demand among the general population which far outnumbers the scallywags and therefore the cost for it will be higher.

Remember that most of the people in the galaxy, even in the outer rim, are more like Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru than like Luke, Han and Lando. They are miners, farmers, and mechanics not smugglers, Jedi and conmen. As a result they have no need of a heavily armed and armored speeder. So the swoop is going to be much more in demand among the general population which far outnumbers the scallywags and therefore the cost for it will be higher.

Swoops are high performance racing craft. They are only one step down from a podracer, and are not something that Uncle Owen rides around on.

I dunno, seems like a motorbike with a machinegun whould be a little bit harder to come by. Doing the math, a character could just come in at affording one of these by taking 10 extra obligation. They'd have literally no other equipment till the party's first payday, but hey, motorbike with a machinegun! It especially seems odd to me given the fact that the weapon mounted on it is technically harder to find than the bike itself, and costs more than two thirds the price of the NON-RESTRICTED speeder. Or heck, an adventure or two in and suddenly the Fringer or Smuggler's got a sweet ride that can tear through minions like tissue. I know there's always the power of GM denial, but it just feels like an oversight to me.

That price definetely seems wonky. I'd make that the price of the bike without the gun perhaps.

Alternatively that could be the price that militaries get when they buy it wholesale. Civilians have to get it ont he black market for way more.

Swoops are high performance racing craft. They are only one step down from a podracer, and are not something that Uncle Owen rides around on.

The point I was trying to make is that a swoop, even as you point out being a racing bike, is going to be in higher demand than a military speeder.

Side note, I actually came upon this oddity when pricing a bare-bones speeder bike for a character concept I was working on. Basically a delivery boy for whatever the most relevant NPC would be, who would have dialed in as much Obligation as possible for the speeder and maybe a small pistol or tool kit if he could afford it. A mostly noncombat PC, but good with fixing, riding, and hotwiring vehicles and other machines. (so, tightly focused in Mechanics, Skulduggery, and Piloting)

On topic, if I ever GM a group that wants one of these, I'll definitely consider the 3000 credits price to be a "civilian" model, with the armed version costing 5000 or more and being tougher to find on the market.

I don't think they were considering the laws of supply and demand here. Considering the gun is Restricted by default so should the bike. Thus, I have to think it's a mistake and the price is for the bike without the gun.

It does seem strange that a military-grade vehicle like the Aratech is so readily (and relatively cheaply) available. I can understand them being common enough due to Imperials using them all over the place, but the fact that they aren't listed as restricted seems like an oversight to me. I mean, going off of common sense, would military suppliers really make heavy-weapon-mounted personal transports something you could just waltz up and buy on a whim?

I don't think they were considering the laws of supply and demand here. Considering the gun is Restricted by default so should the bike. Thus, I have to think it's a mistake and the price is for the bike without the gun.

Oh I agree the game designers were not taking the laws of supply and demand into account. However, the point is that such a price difference is not unreasonable at least from an in game perspective so I don't feel the price needs changed. I also pulled out my old game books and in WEG the swoop was 2k more expensive than the speederbike and in SAGA they were the same price. So for me I have no problem with the prices.

I do agree though that it is odd that it is not restricted which is another matter entirely. While military, law enforcement and professional security organizations may be able to purchase them it does not seem right that the average citizen can walk off the street and take one for a test drive.

Sounds like they were using the WEG rules as the base as that's what we have here 2x the price. I am not that familiar with the WEG system but in game play was the bike worth 2x the price. I am wondering if they just blindly took the price but with the system change we aren't seeing 2x the benefit.

If we assume that the price is without the gun given it is not restricted, when we add the gun's price it is close to the Saga rule system's price.

I think, for my game, I am going to rule that the price is for the bike without the gun (which matches it not being restricted) or it'll be the military price and will have a higher black market price

Maybe they left off a zero at the end or a one at the beginning?

A swoop bike is a highly modified and customized work of art, while the speeder bike is a wholesale mass produced thing. I think that is well reflected in the difference in price.

I do agree that the speeder bike should be restricted though.

There's a simple reason why the armed speeder bike isn't Restricted in the same way as the person-carried weapon which is equivalent. That vehicle-mounted weapon isn't nearly as portable. It's a larger weapon with firepower equivalent to the Restricted weapon, it's not an off-the-shelf model of that Restricted weapon bolted to the speeder's frame.

If someone wanted to walk around with the speeder's weapon, they're going to have to *also* cart around the speeder's power supply. And they're going to need to do something to the firing controls so that it can be handled by a person. Or they're going to have to drag around the entire speeder. (Not exactly subtle, and not even necessarily *possible*, depending on where they want to go.)

Also note that what is Restricted on one world may not be on another, and what *isn't* even Restricted on one world may be flat out *Illegal* on another. Star Wars is a universe in which Piracy, and rampaging swoop gangs are still a going concern. Defensive weapons on ships and vehicles will, accordingly, get a bit of leeway, especially out on the Rim.

Yes, that is true, but the pricing does seem a little off (essentially the bike costs 750 credits with the rest of the cost being the gun; yes, I know it's not exactly the same gun as the personal gun. Still, I don't know the rules well enough to know if the stats for the other speeder makes it worth twice the price so I will just leave it alone unless it gets "abused" by my players

Just think of the price for the speeder bike to be the price without the gun. If you want the gun you'll have to buy it separately on the black market. Only law enforcement and militaries would be able to buy the speeder bike with a blaster cannon mounted. Civillian buyers have to do without.

I wouldn't be too worried about that. I've noticed that prices seem somewhat disconnected from capability in the Star Wars universe, and that's in fact normal. It has more to do with a lot of other factors, like manufacturing volume, popularity and availability.

For instance... I live in Canada. I cannot buy a fully automatic AK-47. If I was a collector, I could buy a gun safe and get permits, and import it. (Correction, some shops carry them.)

But if I lived in Africa, I could find one and buy it for, oh, $5, no questions asked.

Oh look! A deer! Its comming right for us!

Yeah, just find it weird that game designers would be taking supply and demand into account when it comes to pricing of stuff. Not saying it's a bad thing and I appreciate the extra thought into the pricing... Just more used to prices being based on the rules and game balance in a vacuum from the economy of the world

Yes, that is true, but the pricing does seem a little off (essentially the bike costs 750 credits with the rest of the cost being the gun; yes, I know it's not exactly the same gun as the personal gun. Still, I don't know the rules well enough to know if the stats for the other speeder makes it worth twice the price so I will just leave it alone unless it gets "abused" by my players

I think I am probably going to do the same and if necessary your suggestion to make the price be for the unarmed version of the bike seems like a pretty good one.

There's a simple reason why the armed speeder bike isn't Restricted in the same way as the person-carried weapon which is equivalent. That vehicle-mounted weapon isn't nearly as portable. It's a larger weapon with firepower equivalent to the Restricted weapon, it's not an off-the-shelf model of that Restricted weapon bolted to the speeder's frame.

If someone wanted to walk around with the speeder's weapon, they're going to have to *also* cart around the speeder's power supply. And they're going to need to do something to the firing controls so that it can be handled by a person. Or they're going to have to drag around the entire speeder. (Not exactly subtle, and not even necessarily *possible*, depending on where they want to go.)

You could use the same information to argue that the bike mounted version should be more restricted - it's easily moveable (it's part of a bike) making it more deadly from a tacitical perspective. It has it's own power supply making it more deadly due to an endless supply of ammo.

Modern analogy. Assault Rifles are made illegal without a special permit and cost around $1,000. A new moped comes out sporting a handlebar mounted assault rifle with a belt feed mechanism. Not restricted. $1,100.

Yep, I have a problem with that. My Aratech will be the price and restriction without the light repeater. Adding the repeater ups the price and restriction to that of a repeater.

I'm loving the thought of a player coming across this and demanding it be played by the book. Then realizing he has no other funds and demanding to take the bike everywhere. Driving it into cantinas and hutt palaces while everyone else is walking and trying very hard to appear like they don't know that weirdo on the swoop.

Driving it very slowly up or down stairs, trying to gently squeeze it into turbolifts.

Then reward the player with all enemies targetting the bike as it's obviously the most dangerous element of the party.

I gotta assume it's just oversight on FFGs part.

I'm loving the thought of a player coming across this and demanding it be played by the book. Then realizing he has no other funds and demanding to take the bike everywhere. Driving it into cantinas and hutt palaces while everyone else is walking and trying very hard to appear like they don't know that weirdo on the swoop.

Driving it very slowly up or down stairs, trying to gently squeeze it into turbolifts.

Then reward the player with all enemies targetting the bike as it's obviously the most dangerous element of the party.

I gotta assume it's just oversight on FFGs part.

Sounds like some crap I've always tried when playing Halo. I got me some heavily armed vehicles into places they weren't intended to go several times for uber carnage!

Id agree that you cant compare a swoop with the speeder bike. Compare a veyron bugatti with a common sports car ,the price difference is huge. However I agree that it shouldnt cost 750 creds to buy a bike with your gun, it does seem skewed.

There's a simple reason why the armed speeder bike isn't Restricted in the same way as the person-carried weapon which is equivalent. That vehicle-mounted weapon isn't nearly as portable. It's a larger weapon with firepower equivalent to the Restricted weapon, it's not an off-the-shelf model of that Restricted weapon bolted to the speeder's frame.

If someone wanted to walk around with the speeder's weapon, they're going to have to *also* cart around the speeder's power supply. And they're going to need to do something to the firing controls so that it can be handled by a person. Or they're going to have to drag around the entire speeder. (Not exactly subtle, and not even necessarily *possible*, depending on where they want to go.)

You could use the same information to argue that the bike mounted version should be more restricted - it's easily moveable (it's part of a bike) making it more deadly from a tacitical perspective. It has it's own power supply making it more deadly due to an endless supply of ammo.

Modern analogy. Assault Rifles are made illegal without a special permit and cost around $1,000. A new moped comes out sporting a handlebar mounted assault rifle with a belt feed mechanism. Not restricted. $1,100.

Yep, I have a problem with that. My Aratech will be the price and restriction without the light repeater. Adding the repeater ups the price and restriction to that of a repeater.

In response to your modern analogy:

If you can find an Assault Rifle for $1000, let me know where. I'll apply for that $200 tax stamp and buy it myself, then sell it to someone else for a $4000-$15000 profit, and replace it with a perfectly serviceable semi-automatic rifle in the same caliber.

And, again, that speeder-mounted weapon isn't the same thing as the rifle it compares to from a firepower stand point. The rifle is *much* more portable than the speeder mounted weapon. In fact, anywhere the speeder-mounted version can be taken, the rifle can be taken. Plus the rifle fits in a duffel bag, the passenger compartment of a car, or truck, or in a turbolift that *isn't* designed for moving freight. (Ever tried taking even a basic bicycle with you somewhere where you need to ride an elevator?) The power supply for the rifle version is *much* smaller than the engines of the speeder, and you can carry an *effectively* unlimited supply much more compactly than dragging a speeder along with you.

Agreed, it's not exactly the same thing, but the pricing does feel off to me. As I said earlier, I'm not going to change anything just yet as I haven't played the system long enough to get a feel for the relative value of the stats. I just have a feeling players will go - Hmmmm, 6000 credits for an unarmed vehicle vs 3000 for one that has a gun? Gun please. If that choice becomes the default answer, then it's not a choice and then there's something not right. If the players would rather than the more expensive, unarmed one, then that's cool. I know there will be issues driving around with an armed bike with respect to NPC reactions, but then again, it's not a restricted vehicle so they would probably argue with me that there shouldn't be.