Question for you force savvy types; when using the Force Move Control Upgrade to damage enemies, does the PC have access to his/her ranged combat talents ie; Anatomy Lessons, Crippling Blow, Lethal Blows, Precise Aim, Sniper Shot, Targeted Blow, True Aim.

These talents state, in most cases, that they affect "Combat Checks" or "Successful attacks with non-starship/vehicle weapons".

The crux of the issue is this; is the roll against your Disciple a "Combat Check" and is the object thrown a "Weapon"?

The RAW state under that move power control upgrade - "The damage is resolved following all the rules for ranged attacks", and, "This attack follows all the rules for ranged attacks, such as ranged defence and aiming."

Thanks!

Anatomy Lessons: No (it states "non-starship/vehicle weapon").

Crippling Blow: I'd say you can. Not necessarily that you should, but at least it makes sense.

Lethal Blows: Yes, probably. Same as above.

Precise Aim: I'd say no. Aiming should only apply to weapons you're holding or operating, not stuff you can launch with your mind from a completely different angle.

Sniper Shot: Absolutely not.

Targeted Blow: No, for the same reason as Anatomy Lesson.

True Aim: No, for the same reason as Precise Aim.

Thanks for sounding in!

So, your interpretation is that the object is indeed not a weapon. I have a rather stubborn PC that is arguing that in the description of the Control Upgrade, it states; "The Force user gains the ability to move objects fast enough that they become difficult to dodge and can be used as weapons."

For what we can tell, after scouring the rule book, there is no flat ruling on what constitutes a "weapon", the rules for improvised weapons making the subject all the muddier.

I like, and agree with, your argument that because the moved objects are often being shot from an angle not congruent with traditional aiming, that talents that affect aiming should not apply.

I'd say "No" on using any of those talents in conjunction with a hurled object via the Move power.

For starters, that Move power's attack effect is devastating enough, requiring only a single Difficulty for a Silhouette 1 object, which does 10 damage + successes, or 20 damage + successes for a Silhouette 2 object, with a Difficulty of 2. And the difficulty isn't affected by the range between the object and the target, though you are limited to Short Range (Range Upgrades will extend this, but you'd need an additional Force Point to active both the Range and Strength Upgrades).

Plus, the Discipline roll strictly isn't a combat check, though it gets treated as such at least for purposes of any defenses against ranged attacks (be it literally a Ranged Defense rating or various talents that upgrade the difficulty of ranged attacks) probably more so that the targets of hurled objects don't get creamed, particularly if that target is a major adversary.

Lethal Blows is kind of a moot point, since there's no ability to trigger a Critical Injury using Move. Crippling Blow is the only one I might consider, but I might also require the Force-user to have rolled a Triumph on their Discipline check to reflect the precision needed to cause that sort of injury, especially if they are hurling something really big.

For starters, that Move power's attack effect is devastating enough, requiring only a single Difficulty for a Silhouette 1 object, which does 10 damage + successes, or 20 damage + successes for a Silhouette 2 object, with a Difficulty of 2. And the difficulty isn't affected by the range between the object and the target, though you are limited to Short Range (Range Upgrades will extend this, but you'd need an additional Force Point to active both the Range and Strength Upgrades).

Are you sure about this? Because to me it's not clear if you should add the silhouette difficulty to range difficulty or not.

So targeting someone with a size 1 object at long range ( if you have the range upgrades) would only be diff hard, three purple dice and not five? Does this have a clear answer somewhere ?

For starters, that Move power's attack effect is devastating enough, requiring only a single Difficulty for a Silhouette 1 object, which does 10 damage + successes, or 20 damage + successes for a Silhouette 2 object, with a Difficulty of 2. And the difficulty isn't affected by the range between the object and the target, though you are limited to Short Range (Range Upgrades will extend this, but you'd need an additional Force Point to active both the Range and Strength Upgrades).

Are you sure about this? Because to me it's not clear if you should add the silhouette difficulty to range difficulty or not.

So targeting someone with a size 1 object at long range ( if you have the range upgrades) would only be diff hard, three purple dice and not five? Does this have a clear answer somewhere ?

Given the description of the Control Upgrade cites that the Difficulty is equal to the Silhouette of the object thrown, with zero mention of using the standard ranged attack difficulties like you'd use for a ranged weapons. So based on that, attacking with a Silhouette 1 object would be 1 Difficulty no matter if your target was at Short Range or Extreme Range, the only difference being you'd need to activate the Range Upgrade to go past Short Range (possibly multiple times if you've only bought one or two Range Upgrades).

Though at the very end of the Upgrade's description, it does say "follows all the rules for ranged attacks, including ranged defense and aiming." My read on that is that it simply means if the target has anything that affects ranged attacks, then it'd be applied to the Discipline check, as lack of defenses on the target's part was one of the HUGE issues with Move as it existed in the EotE Beta.

So it would seem that you could use the Aim maneuver with a hurled object. Not sure I'd allow True Aim though, but by RAW that talent would seem to be legal.

It makes sense actually to be able to hit people a bit easier with the mind then with a ranged weapon. You have control of the item being thrown and could control its momentum and trajectory. Also whenever the Force users in the films, games or series throws things or brings cliffs down on their enemies, the hard part is to actually calm the mind and focus the object not actually hitting.

I'm borrowing this thread once again on a similar question; if you have the range upgrades and get enough force points on activation, could you pick something up at longer range then short?

Example; you roll enough force pips and succeds on the discipline check, could you pick up the cargo crate from long range and throw it at the bad guys that are in medium range from you, or does the cargo crate have to be in short range?

Once again, the subtle meaning of the rules is not clear to me, but i think this is true and you could use it.

My GM does not share my optimistic appraisal of the situation.

The next time developers are on the Order 66 podcast (which I don't listen to), this question could be brought up.

I think it's worth getting an official call on.

I think the debate surrounding this really comes down to two questions; Is the Discipline check required to hit with the move power a Combat Check, and is the move power considered a Ranged Attack, and if so, is the moved object a weapon?

Once these are sorted out, the talents should fall into place.

To debate the semantics around each talent, and assign each a separate house ruling, seems counter to the simplicity that this narrative system seems to thrive on.

Again, thanks for sounding in! This may end up being a question for the Order 66, which I don't listen to.

I'm borrowing this thread once again on a similar question; if you have the range upgrades and get enough force points on activation, could you pick something up at longer range then short?

Example; you roll enough force pips and succeds on the discipline check, could you pick up the cargo crate from long range and throw it at the bad guys that are in medium range from you, or does the cargo crate have to be in short range?

Once again, the subtle meaning of the rules is not clear to me, but i think this is true and you could use it.

My GM does not share my optimistic appraisal of the situation.

I'd say that the Range Upgrades would apply to both the object affected and the desired target. So in your example, so long as you've either purchased enough Range Upgrades with XP (would just need two of them) or roll enough Force Points to activate the Range Upgrade twice (assuming you've only purchased it once), then you could easily lift a cargo crate at long range and use it to attack a bad guy that's at medium range from where you are. My read on the Upgrades is that once you've activated them for that particular effect, they amplify all aspects of the power.

But wouldn't that require you to move the crate (or whatever) with two maneuvers to get it from long to medium range?

But wouldn't that require you to move the crate (or whatever) with two maneuvers to get it from long to medium range?

There's nothing in the power or the Range Upgrades that says that's the case.

The Move power is itself an Action, not a Maneuver, and the object affected is presumed to move however many Range Bands the Force-user can extend their range out to. So if the Force-user as all three Range Upgrades and activates them, they could move an object from Engaged to Extreme with that single Action, or vice versa. So using an object at Long Range to attack a target at Medium or Short Range would still fall under that Action.

You're confusing character movement with how Move works, when they're totally separate things.

Thanks for sounding in!

So, your interpretation is that the object is indeed not a weapon. I have a rather stubborn PC that is arguing that in the description of the Control Upgrade, it states; "The Force user gains the ability to move objects fast enough that they become difficult to dodge and can be used as weapons."

For what we can tell, after scouring the rule book, there is no flat ruling on what constitutes a "weapon", the rules for improvised weapons making the subject all the muddier.

I like, and agree with, your argument that because the moved objects are often being shot from an angle not congruent with traditional aiming, that talents that affect aiming should not apply.

You are the GM, and the final arbiter of the rules. If you don't feel a particular pc's interruption of the rules is accurate, or unreasonable then veto it. You shouldn't have to argue with your players. If the player doesn't like it, then they can try gm'ing themselves.

The more that I play around with the move power, the more I realize that unless you are burning destiny or suffering strain, the power itself is actually quite unreliable. I understand that it could potentially do a significant amount of damage, but to be using it every turn as other PC's would, say, a blaster rifle, the damage tends to even out in the end or come in under. Not to mention the huge EXP investment that it would take to upgrade the move power fully, as well as access the other talents in question.

My GM'ing style is such that I love to let my PCs do something "cool", it invests them in their character, and in so doing, in my story. If a PC wants to be a Bounty Hunter Force Sensitive Assassin that uses the move power to take out his targets, I think that's neat. It also reinforces the idea that there is no "Force User" Career, and that in fact, all of the FSE's in EoE are primarily something else; a Trader, a Hired Gun ect. Again, I'm inclined to let this interpretation of the rules go ahead, if it makes the game more fun for my players, because in the end, isn't that why we are playing?

I suppose I was hoping to generate a discussion around an actual ruling of this interpretation, rather then just flat out pulling the "I'm the GM, and what I say goes" card. Properly defining the move power, which also makes an appearance in AoR, alleviates any future arguments concerning the use of the power as a weapon in regards to combat talents from here on in.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, chime in!

If anyone has any thoughts on this, chime in!

That's actually deliberate on FFG's part, that Move isn't super-powerful without the Force-user spending a lot of XP, both on the power's Upgrades but also on raising their Force Rating. The EotE didn't have Force Point costs to activate the Upgrades; once purchased, you could use them so long as you rolled that 1 Force Point to activate the basic power (or were willing to suffer a point of Strain and flip a Destiny Point). Calling the original arrangement "utterly broken" was an understatement, as GM Chris showed a test build that could drop just about any Adversary in the game with no more than the Move power, two Strength Upgrades, two Range Upgrades, a Magnitude Upgrade, and the "hurl objects" Control Upgrade. The fact that there wasn't even a Discipline check at all meant the targets had zero defense, and having Silhouette 2 objects to throw about isn't that far of a stretch for most combat encounters.

A Force-user with a Force Rating of 1 isn't going to be doing the cool stuff you see Jedi doing in the movies; they're about on par with Luke as of A New Hope. So yeah, being able to hurl big objects around for loads of damage isn't going to be easy to pull off, and the Force-user may simply have to settle for just getting the Basic Power to trigger.

However, you'll notice a definite spike in power once your Force-user PCs get that Force Rating talent and increase their Force Rating to 2. They won't be as reliant on converting those Dark Side points (they may still need to do it every so often, but not on a regular basis unless they just have horrible luck with the dice).