Hello brothers in arms,

Following my impressions / comments to the psychic chapter:

> Rules for Astropaths & Soul Binding would be nice

> Add a table which shows which Psy Rating is about which declaration (Alpha, Beta-Psyker...)

> Sustaining gives only +2 on the Perils table ? I would give a little more

> Would limit number of allowed Disciplines to Psy Rating/2 (rounded up)

> There are effectivly doubles, that should only be 1 scaling power (with PR) and replace the other by a missing psy power from DH1:

- Foreboding / Forewarning

- Precognition / Prescience / Winding Fate

Those above are way too similar to be 2 or even 3 psy powers (a waste of slots)

For these, it would be better to bring back Soul Sight & Dowsing

> Perfect Timing: very situational; better change it to sth like Divine Shot from DH1

> Telepathic Link should be split into 2 psy powers: Mind Scan & Telepathy

To put these 2 together into one Psy Power creates an odd feeling.

It also makes this Psy Power quite unbalanced. It is too ineffective for simple telepathic communication, and way too easy for scanning minds.

> can spontaneous Combustion also set objects afire ? Can it make a promethium tank explode ? This should be mentioned.

> can manipulate flame stop flamers & meltas from being used while sustained ? Can it prevent powers from other Pyromants ?

This should be mentioned.

> I especially miss the following 4 psy powers quite badly; these are all from DH1 and all really good useable in my oppinion and have no direct replacement in DH2 yet:

- Dowsing

- Soul Sight

- Cellular Control

- Psychic Blade (essential for templar like or assassin-like psykers)

- Projection

> some of the minor powers where quite cool...would be nice if they find their way into the trees of the main powers in some shape (like e.g. Wall Walk)

> In general, some more Psy Powers would be nice, which have a quite different feeling to the existing one, which yet feel a little generic

> Psyniscience

- this skill should be ONLY available for psykers; this would also mean to gibe non-psyker AAT characters an alternative skill

- its use should give hard penalties on the throw to recognize psykers or daemons who currently do not actively use psy powers daemonic powers. Otherwise, this can very easily become a plot killer

> I am not a fan of the psychic power trees. They are too restrictive and should be much flatter with more freedom of choice

In my mind Rogue Trader with it's Basic Technique was the best handling of psychic powers last edition but it needed more Basic Techniques. Say Aura Reading, Dowsing, Precognition for Divination, you probably get by with 1 for TK, not sure how to do Bio. Basically I see no reason DH2 can't be at least as good as RT.

Basically I agree with you particularly on trees as they just feel computer gamey.

• I like that Perils are more common. Goading psykers into pushing their powers was always the high point of my games. I'd love to have more of it.
  
• I like that the disciplines correspond to the tabletop game. I also like the discipline limit.
  
• Discipline trees having the same layout as talents is a great improvement. Brings a more unified feel to the whole thing. Actually, I'm a little annoyed (superficially) that Psychic Powers don't follow immediately after talents in the book (switch chapter numbers with Armoury).
  
• Clearing up how sustained powers work (thanks to the AP system) is a huge benefit. I hated the old rules. In general, the new ones seem clearer and easier to follow - not as separated from the rest of the game as in past editions.
  

• Haeorrhage : I found the description confusing. Does the wound suffered ignore armour/toughness? I'm assuming so, since 1d5 is otherwise much too low, but it's not entirely clear. Also, does the wound effect get the usual benefit from previous wounds? I'd assume not, since it's not a normal hit (and it specifically states "an energy effect of 1d5") - but if it doesn't, it'd never kill anyone, thus never activate its only useful trait. This one needs a rewording. I also feel that the PL metres range of the jumping effect might be too small. The power already seems a little weak.
  
• Life Leech : Should the target of Life Leech not get a chance to break free each round? It would be harder, thanks to the Weakened condition, but it feels cheap that you could hold someone leeched indefinitely if they got unlucky on one test.
  
• Smite : This is generally covered in my feedback on the Armoury, but this case is especially obvious: 1 Penetration? Really? Make it a 0, add 1 to the damage (or don't - really doesn't matter), and make life easier for everyone.
  

• Layout note : Maybe I'm being stupid, but why does it say "Precognition Powers" in the title box for the talent tree? Shouldn't it be "Divination Powers"?
  
• Forewarning : I like the idea of this one, but I'm a little worried about abuse. It seems weird that you can essentially give your AP to someone else. Maybe I'm fretting over nothing - I can't think of a particularly bad scenario - but I hope you guys have thought this one through.
  
• Misfortune : Hand-waving is bad! The Unreliable thing kinda redeems the wishy-washy intro, but not really (what about melee fighters?). This should have a clearly defined effect in structured time.
  
• Perfect Timing : Half PL seems a little weak to me. I think this could go up to full PL without unbalancing anything.
  
• Prescience and all talents following it : Whoa. Hand-waving is permissible here, I guess, but 4 separate, expensive powers that all essentially do the same thing? I generally don't like it when a more powerful spell completely replaces an earlier one, but this is on another level. I can't imagine ever being able to convince a player to go down this path. Way too much bloat.
  

• General : This isn't really about pyromancy, but it shows up a lot here: Why the discrepancy between the Flame quality and the Burning condition? The 3x thing from Flame to Burning is just confusing. Why not just modify every weapon with the Flame quality to have a higher value for X? It's annoying editing work, sure, but it'd make a lot more sense in the final product.
  
• Cauterise : I'm torn. I like the idea, but it just seems weak. I think it should at least be reduced to be 1 AP to use.
  
• Fiery Form : I know this one gets a lot of flak, but I actually like it. Again, though, the AP cost is a little high.
  
• Fire Shield : As it is, this is too weak (and boosting its range was a weird change, I think - I already have trouble seeing flames shooting out 20m to hit someone...). Its Type is listed as Attack and its Time is listed as Utility - this must be an error? Make it a Utility power, so it doesn't eat up your attack, have it cost 2 AP at most, and don't limit the number of times it can activate per turn. Then you'd have an interesting power, I think.
  
• Flame Breath : With the increased effect of Burning and the range boost, I think I like this one. It needed a boost before.
  
• Inferno : With the changes to Flame and Burning, this is now TERRIFYING . Burning(12), which will become Burning(24) if not put out, on a big group of guys? Wow. This is crowd control more than anything - those afflicted are going to want to spend their turns putting out the flames. I think this might actually be overpowered now, with its 2d10+PL damage on top of the crazy Burning effects.
  
• Manipulate Flame : Can this remove the Burning condition from characters? I don't see why it wouldn't, but the description isn't very clear. Also, does "moving the flame" actually mean moving it - ie. the flame going somewhere else (and the previous location is no longer burning)? Or does it just make the fire expand in the chosen direction?
  
• Molten Beam : This now seems underpowered compared to Inferno. I'd say set its Pen to 0 and increase its damage to 2d10+PL. Better than Inferno against a single, high-armoured target - worse in general.
  
• Spontaneous Combustion : Now that the Flame quality is multiplicative, this seems a little weak. Should it be Burning(3xPL)?
  
• Sunburst : This seems really weak. I like the idea of an AoE centered on the caster, but with its short range, low damage and low value for Flame, I just don't see it being very interesting compared to Inferno. Maybe Sunburst could also Blind anyone hit by it? Give it a little more utility?
  

• Crush : Again, Penetration 1? Save us some trouble.
  
• Gate of Infinity : Couldn't we get an AP cost (and allowance for spending several rounds casting it)? It could be a cool ability in battle. 12 AP seems low compared to 5 minutes, but I think it shouldn't be higher than that if we ever want to see it used in Structured time.
  
• Objuration Mechanicum : Probably a typo - "The psyker does not roll 1d10...", shouldn't that be 1d5? With half PL?
  
• Shockwave : Seemed weak at first, but Concussive can be a pretty awesome crowd control mechanic. I think I like it.
  
• Telekine Dome/Shield : I've seen some criticism against these. I think they're pretty great, but they could use a small boost. How about this: Allow the Psyker to spend 1AP (or maybe gain 1 Fatigue) as a reaction to prevent cover damage to the shield/dome. I like the image of the psyker slowly succumbing to the strain of holding his force field active. It also introduces some strategy elements (spend reactions sooner rather than later to keep cover value high; focus fire on shields to take them down).
  

• Layout : The line from Terrify to Invisiblity seems superfluous if there's already a line from Telepathic Link to Invisibility. Are both of these intentional? Judging by exp costs, I'm guessing Terrify is a prerequisite for Invisibility.
  
• Psychic Shriek : A little too similar to Shockwave, maybe? I like the idea, but I wish they weren't essentially the same power. How about adding Deafened to its effects?
  
• Puppet Master : This seems much too easy to abuse. Since the only requirement to sustain the power is dividing your AP freely between yourself and the target, just assign 0 AP to the target and 4 to yourself. Your target will never get a chance to break free (this seems like a general problem with sustained powers) and you can just leave him standing there (I suppose it could be argued that this was "potentially suicidal", but it's a gray area).
  

• Molten Beam : This now seems underpowered compared to Inferno. I'd say set its Pen to 0 and increase its damage to 2d10+PL. Better than Inferno against a single, high-armoured target - worse in general.
• Spontaneous Combustion : Now that the Flame quality is multiplicative, this seems a little weak. Should it be Burning(3xPL)?

Telekinesis:

• Objuration Mechanicum : Probably a typo - "The psyker does not roll 1d10...", shouldn't that be 1d5? With half PL?
• Shockwave : Seemed weak at first, but Concussive can be a pretty awesome crowd control mechanic. I think I like it.

Telepathy:

• Psychic Shriek : A little too similar to Shockwave, maybe? I like the idea, but I wish they weren't essentially the same power. How about adding Deafened to its effects?
• Puppet Master : This seems much too easy to abuse. Since the only requirement to sustain the power is dividing your AP freely between yourself and the target, just assign 0 AP to the target and 4 to yourself. Your target will never get a chance to break free (this seems like a general problem with sustained powers) and you can just leave him standing there (I suppose it could be argued that this was "potentially suicidal", but it's a gray area).

I snipped your post, above, to only include the things I'm going to comment on.

Molten beam: with update 3, Molten beam penetration needs to be higher, not lower. The "ignore" mechanic has been replaced with "double penetration." 2 x 0 = 0. Pen = Psi would be okay, but frankly it should be Pen = (Psi x 2) for molten to be similar to a melta weapon, which is what it's supposed to be.

Spontaneous combustion: weak? WEAK? It's now a fire and forget killer torpedo. At power 4 it does 12 burning damage the first round an 24 the second, killing basically anything if they don't put it out. Keep in mind, this means that other attackers simply have to prevent your target from putting the fire out to kill them. Any action that stuns or prevents them from dropping prone will kill. Now, given that it is incredibly easy to put it out with a 2 AP action, I would make it a 2 AP attack (because, let's face it, spending 3 AP to cost your opponent 2 AP is a bad trade). But other than the AP cost, I don't see how its weak...especially given that it's the 100 exp "entry level" attack power.

Objuration Mechanicum: agree. I'm not sure whether the designers intended psykers to be able to reach max effect by psi power 5, or if they forgot to add a "/2" factor in. But either way, the description needs to be clarified.

Shockwave: I disagree that they are that similar as to be redundant. Shockwave is a 'ring' effect; shriek is a spray. Very different uses.

Puppetmaster: yes, its essentially a killer one-on-one. But it has two important limitations (IMO). One - in party on party combat, against smart opponents, using it probably makes the psyker target #1. You paint a giant target on you if you dare to use it against a group. Two - it doesn't give information, so if you want to question someone, you can't use it to pacify them AND get information.

Terrify (not mentioned by you): the fear mechanic is very important for this power, and unfortunately the written rules are contradictory and need to be clarified by the designers (hear that, guys?) . Bottom left of p127 says that failing a check costs 1 fatigue. Top left of p251 says the same. Top right of p251, however, says you suffer one fatigue per DoF. If the power causes 1 fatigue, its pretty useless and low powered and needs to be reworked, because no one will use it. If the power causes DoF fatigue (which, for the power, equals Psi fatigue), then it can probably take down any single opponent of equal level as the psyker in 2 rounds, and completely bypasses the wound system as well as armor. That's not completely overpowered (the best ranged weapons can probably take an equivalent opponent down in 1 round or 2 at most), but it should probably be at the 300 exp or 500 exp tier, not the 100 exp tier.

A worry I really have, is that a lot of psykers will look the same at the beginning due to the narrow tree structure.

To be honest, I woukd be gladmif the trees would not exist at all, or at least existed much broader to give more flexibility to psyker players. Maybe it is enough to give pre-requisites to some higher psy powers that iclude lower psy powers, but only in cases whereit really makes sense.

Saving the room for trees, this wluld also allow for a handfull of additional psy powers to give more versatility.

The Telepathy power Mental Fortitude shares its name with the Talent tree, and one or the other should probably be changed. I'd suggest changing the psychic power, as its effect doesn't really fit with the meaning of 'fortitude'.

Molten beam: with update 3, Molten beam penetration needs to be higher, not lower. The "ignore" mechanic has been replaced with "double penetration." 2 x 0 = 0. Pen = Psi would be okay, but frankly it should be Pen = (Psi x 2) for molten to be similar to a melta weapon, which is what it's supposed to be.

Thanks for catching that - I had missed the update to Melta. Personally I feel that Penetration needs to go the way of the Dodo anyway (see Armoury thread), but you're right: With the rules as they stand right now, Molten Beam does need higher Pen. I still think it also needs higher damage, though - otherwise it's practically invalidated by the awesome Burning effect of Inferno.

Spontaneous combustion: weak? WEAK? It's now a fire and forget killer torpedo. At power 4 it does 12 burning damage the first round an 24 the second, killing basically anything if they don't put it out. Keep in mind, this means that other attackers simply have to prevent your target from putting the fire out to kill them. Any action that stuns or prevents them from dropping prone will kill. Now, given that it is incredibly easy to put it out with a 2 AP action, I would make it a 2 AP attack (because, let's face it, spending 3 AP to cost your opponent 2 AP is a bad trade). But other than the AP cost, I don't see how its weak...especially given that it's the 100 exp "entry level" attack power.

Yeah, weak (WEAK!, etc.)

Check its description again. Spontaneous Combustion does Burning (PL), not Flame. Flame is what does the multiply-by-3 thing. At power 4, Spontaneous Combustion would do 4 burning damage the first round and 8 the second. That's not very impressive.

I agree that 3xPL would be too strong, though. 2xPL would make more sense. More importantly, I argue again that the discrepancy between Burning and Flame is confusing - Flame should be updated throughout the book to already include the x3 modifier, as needed.

Shockwave: I disagree that they are that similar as to be redundant. Shockwave is a 'ring' effect; shriek is a spray. Very different uses.

Theoretically, maybe, but I don't see it coming up very often in practice.

Either way, it's not a very interesting difference. It quickly becomes a "I really want Shockwave, but I also really want Telepathy. Oh, cool, I guess I can just take Psychic Shriek."-thing (or vice-versa).

Puppetmaster: yes, its essentially a killer one-on-one. But it has two important limitations (IMO). One - in party on party combat, against smart opponents, using it probably makes the psyker target #1. You paint a giant target on you if you dare to use it against a group. Two - it doesn't give information, so if you want to question someone, you can't use it to pacify them AND get information.

I don't think either of those excuse its potential abuse.

It's silly and gamey right now. It should require that you spend a minimum of 1 AP on your "puppet" each turn to sustain it, or it should give the puppet a Willpower save every round (I think opposed sustained effects need to do this in general).

I still think Push is underpowered; there was an interesting idea in the first few weeks of giving each power a special effect if it was pushed to balance the scales a bit and make pushing less of a 'why the **** would you do this' option.

one point in protection of psy power trees. In looks more logic that when you studiing new discipline you mastering the most basic power of that discipline, just to understand how this powers work.

And about a push. As i see it now concept of push - psyker draws more power then he trained to handle, so it has incresed chances to broke in some perils, instead of target spell. It looks more logical for me, so untrained and inxpirenced psyker has low chansec to make some realy usefull push.

Many player wont use push, as it now more dangeros and less effective, but it has the use in some edgy situation, like then you have target on a litle more range than your smite range and push it, to make it work. Maybe push may have some universal uses, wich player may chose to use when pushing.

Then again, there is some powers like "Infuence" wich much more usefull on pl1 than on any over pl.

I agree that the trees have some logic.

But what I really want to avoid is:

> several powers that are effectively the same (like in Divination!)

--> should be one power only, scaling by Psy Rating

> a too narrow tree that leads to too similar psykers and a lack of choice

--> the trees can remain, but should be broader / more flexible

Check its description again. Spontaneous Combustion does Burning (PL), not Flame....

...Theoretically, maybe, but I don't see it coming up very often in practice. [the difference between shockwave and shriek]

In that case, I agree with you that Spontaneous needs to be revised. I'm okay with the entry level power being somewhat weak, but this one is essentially going to be useless until high Psi power, by which time the psyker will have picked up better attack powers.

Won't the difference between shockwave and shriek come up every time the psyker has an ally standing next to them? You don't want to hit your friends, which makes the spray attack valuable. The range of shriek is also slightly longer; 5m/PL vs. 3m/PL.

Won't the difference between shockwave and shriek come up every time the psyker has an ally standing next to them? You don't want to hit your friends, which makes the spray attack valuable. The range of shriek is also slightly longer; 5m/PL vs. 3m/PL.

Yes, you're right. I think what I was getting at is that Shriek is the same as Shockwave, but generally better. The only instance when you'll ever want Shockwave (over Shriek) is if you're surrounded with no allies in sight. Not a very likely scenario for a psyker.

I just wish we didn't have to debate whether two powers (from completely separate trees) were too similar or not. I feel like they ought to be noticeably different, not "okay, well, I guess I can find a scenario where they'd differ".

It's not nearly at the top of my list for changes. Just a small thing.

I just wish we didn't have to debate whether two powers (from completely separate trees) were too similar or not. I feel like they ought to be noticeably different, not "okay, well, I guess I can find a scenario where they'd differ".

It's not nearly at the top of my list for changes. Just a small thing.

As you said they are on separate trees so there's a good chance it won't be too much of a problem.

It still is in so far a problem that it is not cool to have a very similar power two times. Thats a waste of a power "slot" and should be avoided.

There is really no lack of still missing good DH1 powers.

I've got to agree that I think the current array of psyker powers is kind of disappointing in that the powers are mostly combat focused. I know that the powers match the tabletop more, but the tabletop game is combat only, so I think there's a pretty big gap for non-combat powers. I found this a bit more acceptable in Only War, since it is a military based setting, but dark heresy powers should be more about narrative options than just being a series of varied and/or more deadly weapons.

Something else I think would be cool would be to make some of the higher level powers also be blatantly more disgusting/blasphemous. Give the disciplines themes about humanity: the body, the mind, control, destruction and creation, and knowledge. Make these the themes of humanity's enlightenment and downfall to chaos.

Biomancy

This is a wacky discipline, with a lot of places to go. Let psykers use it for social actions, messing around with people's hormones and brain chemicals. Have them synthesizing strange drugs in their own or others bodies. Have a power that changes the range of biomancy powers fom touch to a distance based on psy rating. Let people start making crazy disguises, or gain some of the Traits. Do some real body horror things with higher level powers like destroying the cells in other bodies and causing people to just disintegrate into primordial ooze. Make this themes about the enhancement and destruction of the body.

Telepathy

Telepathy is already a pretty cool narrative power. I think it's pretty good as-is. Theme is obviously the enhancement and corruption of the mind. Maybe do some stuff with reaching into the collective mind for skill checks or the like. The horror of telepathy is the fear of subconscious heresy and the risk of the unknown mind and its horrors.

Telekinesis

Telekinesis should be about control and the projection of power. Do some things like being able to take multiple actions, split the mind in order to allow more control at once. Make the psychic maelstrom into something that is more rapid, bigger, something that rips weapons apart, bodies apart, and years at attempts to control it. Do more things with the idea of multiple points of control, and the idea of projecting the things you can so farther. Stuff like making melee weapons ranged or increasing weapon RoF. More stuff with controlling machines.

Pyromancy

Pyromancy should flat out be about destruction and creation. Energy. Have it be about blasting things into neat and orderly shapes. Maybe do something with it being able to overcharge weapons. Let it destroy equipment. Let it provide power and energy to something. Maybe a power about using it to craft items into simple tools, like melting and blasting a chunk of wall into a sword or piece of armor. Keep some of the weapon powers but add some stuff for the destructive tendencies of fire.

Divination

Knowledge knowledge knowledge! Divination should be about knowing things. Let it give a temporary specialization. Bring back dowsing. Tell the player a secret. Model up the investigation system more and let it do things with clues and leads. Have it make leads fall into the players lap because he just knows where to be. But make these leads dangerous.

As I write this, I wonder if it might be too abstract and too fluff unfriendly. I think, though, that theming these powers more allows for better and cooler uses. The warp is corruption and chaos. Man uses it for his own motivations and ends. Model te powers after these motivations. Model them after humanity's strengths and weaknesses. That makes te psyker system much cooler than just a bunch of weapon powers.

It still is in so far a problem that it is not cool to have a very similar power two times. Thats a waste of a power "slot" and should be avoided.

There is really no lack of still missing good DH1 powers.

Maybe what would help would be to develop a table of attack powers, similar to the weapon table. That would allow both the players and designers to view the entire range of psyker attacks to look for redundancies and gaps. Its maybe a first step towards making the set of attack powers better.

Personally, I'm not looking for any big increase in damage. I like the idea of psykers being the 'jack of all trades' of combat rather than the damage specialists that a desperado or warrior may be. Psykers aren't the big guns but...you want daze? I got that. Burn? Sure, got that too. A spray attack? Something undodgeable? Good against demons? You want to lay down a fear effect? Got it, got it, got it. I also like that a number of the defensive psyker powers help the party, not just the psyker. Powers like invisibility and forewarning are really nice for a support-type fighter. And while I have problems with Perfect Timing, the concept of giving each of your party a bonus to their attack based on the ability to see the future is definitely something I think the designers should keep.

The damage itself is ok so far.

My main problem is as said really the powers that are too similar and should be merged, and some interesting powers from the first edition brought back.

Still also thinking the minor powers were a good think. These were small things that could allow for some interesting character creations.

A calix templar with wall walk :-) such things.

Also, how could Dowsing have been skipped ! Dowsing ! Bring that back!

Also projection, which was an awesome ability that gave a lot of possibilities.

Cellular control, although being a little similar to shape flesh, had totaly different effects (which could also be represented by a far improved shape flesh power with more choice of effects).

Soul Sight is also something my psyker player liked, although as a GM this can be plot endangering...never the less, liked also this one.

Last but not least - the psychic blade - the ultimate templar weapon :-) where is it gone ???

I'm gonna have to disagree on a few fronts. See, I also like the idea that psykers risk damning themselves by going stupid, too power-hungry, reach exceeding grasp and all that. But I think the current set-up fails to do this, and just punishes everyone flatly for using their powers and trying to improve their power rating too.

Effectively, I believe there's too many perils [it's way up from when there were two tables and goes straight to 'perils'], too many permanent penalties too early [insanity/corruption]. That's no incentive, that's a reason to avoid using any attack or shielding powers unless you hate yourself and/or the party. Is that any way to get them to screw up spectacularly?


Fettered:
Using less PR than your actual rating only improves % to hit by 5% per point, but also lowers phenomena results by 1 per point. So if you have PR6 and fire at PR4, you're at +10% on the roll, and phenomena are 2d10+2 [PR4-2]. That Librarian can fire off low grade smites all day and not worry about his head exploding like if he were some half-assed newbie we've yet to have black-shipped.

And in the meantime, Pushing should be rewarding you for risking it, and rewarding enemy spectators when you finally screw up. If it's harder to even use your powers, you're less likely to try as well.

Push:
Each point of Pushing, up to +2 [+4 for unsanctioned] adds 5% to your focus test, and raises phenomena results by 1 per point. In addition, you now trigger psychic phenomena on a roll of 01-20, +20 per point beyond the first, in addition to when rolling doubles.

So at +2 you'd get doubles AND anything 01-40 [sometimes pushing too hard just fritzes out harmlessly, but if it WORKED you're almost certain to have trouble], up to 01-80 for an unsanctioned going wild. That PR4 unsanctioned freak pushing at +4? He's rolling 2d10+8.

Sustained powers that were activated by pushing now add +2 OR the full pushing bonus, if it were pushed at +3 or +4, to the phenomena table. Have more fun.


Then we'll just need powers worth salivating over.

@Kiton:

I disagree and think our oppinions on this topic differ a lot.

I really appreciate the system as it is now in DH2 - much better than before. And I really want a high risk for psykers.

Pushing is not something that should be "rewarding" - it is something you hate to do as hell, but sometimes you have to do it when you need the last edge not to die and to succeed. It is something that burns you inside and risks your soul.

Risks, yes, but if it's a last ditch the last thing you need is a -20 penalty on your roll.

It should be equally tempting and damning, not "penalties-everywhere-and-you're-guaranteed-screwed but maybe if it somehow goes off anyways it'll hit harder"

High risk is one thing, but right now there's no value for it, and no way of lowering the risk without blowing fate [which you also need when being shot at, skills, etc like every other character as well]. Emperor Himself would just have screwed right up 10% of the time under these rules, with no way of reducing the insane psy phenomena results of his insane psy rating, no matter how good or masterful he was. I can't say that's to fitting of the setting.

You may not like psykers, and prefer them to go full mutation and/or implode within five sessions so players don't want to use one, but balancing roles and abilities should at least ensure there's worth to the risks taken. No need to ivory tower here.

At the very least we need to re-introduce fettering.

I agree that the benefit could be higher, though I would not decrease the risk.

My try would be though to increase the benefit of scaling Psy Rating, not by changing the other mechanisms.

If 2 PR more have an effect that can be felt, it is more considerable to take the risk.

Currently 1 more PR just does not have the right effect.

Risks, yes, but if it's a last ditch the last thing you need is a -20 penalty on your roll.

It should be equally tempting and damning, not "penalties-everywhere-and-you're-guaranteed-screwed but maybe if it somehow goes off anyways it'll hit harder"

High risk is one thing, but right now there's no value for it, and no way of lowering the risk without blowing fate [which you also need when being shot at, skills, etc like every other character as well]. Emperor Himself would just have screwed right up 10% of the time under these rules, with no way of reducing the insane psy phenomena results of his insane psy rating, no matter how good or masterful he was. I can't say that's to fitting of the setting.

You may not like psykers, and prefer them to go full mutation and/or implode within five sessions so players don't want to use one, but balancing roles and abilities should at least ensure there's worth to the risks taken. No need to ivory tower here.

At the very least we need to re-introduce fettering.

I posted something I was working on in the "thoughts on update 3" thead (post 12) that might give you something like what you want.

Just had a look again on the psy power overview.

I really think the scaling with PR is too weak. In most cases it is X + PR.

In contrast to DW, where the scaling was too strong with X*PR, in DH2 it seems too weak.

I think it would be better to scale with X + PR*2, even if this sometimes means to reduce X.

This would help to actually make a higher PR differ more and could also give more incentive to pushing.

Just had a look again on the psy power overview.

I really think the scaling with PR is too weak. In most cases it is X + PR.

In contrast to DW, where the scaling was too strong with X*PR, in DH2 it seems too weak.

I think it would be better to scale with X + PR*2, even if this sometimes means to reduce X.

This would help to actually make a higher PR differ more and could also give more incentive to pushing.

I think I actually agree with this. I definitely feel like the 250xp base cost on PR increases was abusive for our group's psyker and I was considering that maybe PR advances needed to be capped to rank like characteristics and reduced in cost so as to make for more diverse advancements. But an improvement in scaling would work.

Many of the attack powers in BC/OW seemed to scale with 2*WB or the like and that is a similar arrangement in terms of the math. It should be noted that high end psykers will be pumping out rather a lot of smite blasts with pretty high bonus damage by the rank ten region, but I suppose the same could be said for storm bolters with special ammunition, autocannons with fragmentation ammunition, dual wielding plasma, etc.

I do sort of question the range scaling though. I think making range abusively short at rank one and almost forgettably long at rank 10 might not be logical. I am definitely ok with range being more of a limitation on psykers in combat or out than other action choices, and a long-gun will outrange a psyker even with smite at PL 10 with ease (which is good), but perhaps some of the ranges should be a higher base with a smaller multiplier, 20m + 5m*PL or something along those lines.

I would also be comfortable with seeing some non-PL based scaling where logical, Ib scaling for Telepathy features perhaps, Pb for Divination, Tb for Biomancy. Such associations are already reflected in some of the prerequisites. Even small associations like 1/2Tb pen or something would work, and would make psykers less of a one stat to rule them all stacker.

One thing I would like to see is the use of corruption as temptation much like pushing. Seductive power that only increases the more you embrace corruption. It would not even have to give more corruption points every time you do it, perhaps only if you invoked phenomena would it further corrupt you, thus making it tempting to risk. Perhaps allow psykers to add their Cb to damage rolls, or push an additional 1/2Cb PL or something along those lines. This would give fallen npcs some of the "embrace the warp for power" flavour I want to see, and it would also be a great representation of the allure of risking more corruption by accessing the forbidden knowledge and walking the fence, key themes for DH in general and psykers in particular in my opinion.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/89527-scaling-armoury-and-psychic-powers-go-all-the-way/

The idea of psychic powers scaling with stats besides just PR was brought up in the above thread, and the concept seems very intriguing to me. For example, Biomancy powers could scale with Toughness and PR, while Telepathy could scale with Fellowship and PR. These are just some initial suggestions and the numbers would certainly need a LOT of testing, but this seems like an excellent way to encourage psykers to spend their XP in stats besides just Willpower and Psy Rating.

EDIT: WP/Psy Rating should still be the most important stats -- I just think adding a little variety to the power scaling would spice things up a lot.