I think Buh nailed it. It's what I was trying to explain, but as usual, better.
It lasts the entire duration of the attack - in fact the entire combat round, if you want to get technical, but if it's used she gets stressed and it can't get used again until that stress is cleared. As Buhalin said - if you could do some cross faction craziness where you had her with Captain Yorr (as an off the wall example), where he could take that stress token FOR her, she could in that example use her ability on both attacks of the cluster missile.

She adds the die. Takes a stress token. Yorr intercepts and takes the stress token for her. She now has no stress and is free to use her ability a second time.

I think a relevant part of the FAQ is on page 6, regarding cluster missiles triggering Gunner or Luke.
"Each attack granted by Cluster Missiles is distinct, so either attack can trigger Gunner/Luke Skywalker."
Also important to note that if you fire CM, miss, decide to trigger gunner - you are not allowed to resolve the second cluster missile attack. It is overwritten by the "You may make no further attacks this round" text on Gunner/Luke.

I think that's a pretty important precedent for how Cluster Missiles would interact with Jan, as well.

Which I now see Ken just very clearly explained RIGHT above this. I have literally no idea how I missed that post, so all due props to Ken for that answer first. I wish I could claim he snuck it in while I was typing this, but he posted that an hour ago.

Buhallin and Ken -

Agreed on all accounts, especially the part about the rulings we have so far treating them as two completely independent attacks. I can see that a case might be made for the mechanism I was suggesting, but it certainly fails when put up against the precedents we have so far. It would also set the table for some really wonky interactions.

I was just playing a little devils' advocate, it helps to make sure we have a vigorous understanding of the way the rule works.

Also worth pointing out that there is no reason to believe FFG won't release the next FAQ and just decide this is an exception to the rule, regardless of any prior precedent or what the cards say. That's how they roll.

I would say that it should/would work on both attacks based on the following "reasoning":1) The Cluster Missile card says "...to perform THIS attack twice" so even though you roll twice it is denoted as 1 attack (IMO). I believe that this is done the way it is (rolling 2 times) to illustrate the way the missiles "work"2) MM works on BOTH attacks (including the [Focus] to [Crit] on the first [Focus] each time)3) Krassis's reroll would work on both rollsHaving said that, then it is still true that neither you nor the defending ship can use any kind of token ([Focus] or [Evade]) twice but this is slightly beside the point. But either way: any ship carrying missiles/thorps WILL be an expensive vessel and thus become an interesting target. With Maarek Stele you are getting 2 Shields & a higher PS than the average TIE-jockey

I think you hit on one of the strongest arguments AGAINST it here, to be honest. If its the same attack, and Jan's ability affects it both times, why *wouldn't* a single focus or evade spent stay in play and affect both rolls? By that logic it's still the same attack, right?

Nope, now you're just putting new stuff/meaning into my argumentation: First of all the CM card says this "...attack twice.." and I have NEVER agued that you can/should/may use ANY token twice, so you're not taking me down that road. It is not, never have and never will be even similar, and (as I am not a complete imbecil (actually a Mensa member) I am completely aware that the point you are trying to force into my argument, have already (redundantly) been covered in the latest FAQ:

Q: If a ship spends a focus token when

attacking with Cluster Missiles, does the

focus effect modify both attacks?

A: No. The focus effect modifies a single attack.

Can't we agree that CM is not just a watered down Homing Missile? The reason WHY CM attack is performed in 2 rolls is (IMO) a way of illustating/simulating how a cluster of missiles would work in contrast a single missile (like Assault or Concussion Missiles).

On a sort of side note I haven't seen anyone complain that Jon's buff makes Proton Torps "too powerful" so why this fuss over that it makes CM a bit more robust??

Where I think people get confused is the 'this attack twice' but. It's classic goofy FFG wording. The FAQ defines the steps of an attack pretty clearly - I'll clarify when I have them in front of me. But the way it seems its meant to be read is you're making the same type of attack (the missile), twice. Not that they're literally both the same attack.

Ahh, but isn't the ship that Jon cast the buff on still attacking?? IMO it is still in the proces of attacking when it makes it's second roll of the "..perform this attack twice..", or am I WAY off?? On that note allow me to bring in the wording of Kath Scarlett's ability: "When attacking, the defender receives 1 stress token if he cancels at least 1 result" So if Kath have a Gunner on board, why should we take her ability in consideration on the Gunners attack?

Put another way, again clearer when I grab my rules, you're walking through the steps two distinct times: roll attack dice, modify attack dice, roll defense dice, modify defense dice, compare results. Two attacks on the same target using the same weapon. If something affects you the whole round, it does both. If it affects one roll, it doesn't carry into the next attack.

Quoting the latest FAQ on CM issue I find this to be an argument for my side that it IS one continous attack:

Q: When a ship attacks with Cluster Missiles,

can it perform the two attacks against

different targets?

A: No, it must attack the same target twice.

If Jan uses her ability, she takes a stress token right then. You resolve attack #1, begin attack 2. After you roll the dice you get to the modify dice step. You want to use Jan. She now has a stress token, which prevents her ability from taking effect, There's no way she wouldn't take a stress token immediately on attack one, and thus have it when checking to see if she qualifies for dice modification during that step of attack two.

IMO Jon takes the stress in order to grant the chosen ship an extra Attack Dice for it's attack and if luck (or strategy) has it that the chosen ship just happens to be attacking with CM then that's just brilliant if it's you are the one who are doing the attacking.

And just allow to make this point as the final addition: How many ships on the Rebel Side are actually able/allowed to carry CM's?? I can only make that list to be: Han Solo (50 points incl.CM), Lando (48 incl. CM), Chewbacca (46 incl. CM) and the A-Wings (ranging from 21 to 30 points incl. CM). Adding Jon to this squad will bring you up to 46 to 55 for the A-Wings and a whooping 71 to 75 points for the YT-1330's without any further upgrades fo either ship.

Is that really THAT terrible??

And finally: as always I will respect and abide by any ruling in an upcoming FAQ on this issue.

Take care out there, it's just for laugh and giggles

Two attacks. Attacks the same target twice. A Mensa member can probably spell imbecile. Nobody said this was too powerful, just that it's not how it works. The ship isn't still attacking, it's attacking again. Because Kath says "when attacking," all inclusive, full stop. Blue was a terrible, illegible choice.

Quoting the latest FAQ on CM issue I find this to be an argument for my side that it IS one continous attack:

This might be a good circumstantial argument, except the FAQ says directly that it is NOT one continuous attack.

Q: If a ship using Cluster Missiles hits with the first attack, but then misses with the second attack, can he still use Gunner/Luke Skywalker even though the first attack hit?

A: Yes. Each attack granted by Cluster Missiles is distinct, so either attack can trigger Gunner/Luke Skywalker.

If it were one attack, there would only be one chance for Gunner to trigger. If it were one attack and you hit with the first "half" of that one attack, you would not have failed to hit, so you would not be able to trigger Gunner.

And if we want to dive into the incidentals, note the verbiage there: "first attack" and "second attack" and "Each attack granted by Cluster Missiles is distinct". You really can't read that to be one single attack.

What he said.

Yep. Cluster Missiles are two distinct attacks according to the FAQ and Jan only affects a single attack with her ability. Therefore, she can't help with both attacks.

I apologise for my poor or inacurate wording (a huge point in these discussions) but English isn't my primary language and thus I sometimes can't word it exactly as intended. The following replies should be seen as an attempt to clarify some of my point and not as an attempt to retreat, okay?

Quoting the latest FAQ on CM issue I find this to be an argument for my side that it IS one continous attack:

This might be a good circumstantial argument, except the FAQ says directly that it is NOT one continuous attack.

Q: If a ship using Cluster Missiles hits with the first attack, but then misses with the second attack, can he still use Gunner/Luke Skywalker even though the first attack hit?
A: Yes. Each attack granted by Cluster Missiles is distinct, so either attack can trigger Gunner/Luke Skywalker.

If it were one attack, there would only be one chance for Gunner to trigger. If it were one attack and you hit with the first "half" of that one attack, you would not have failed to hit, so you would not be able to trigger Gunner.

And if we want to dive into the incidentals, note the verbiage there: "first attack" and "second attack" and "Each attack granted by Cluster Missiles is distinct". You really can't read that to be one single attack.

Ahh, I am fully aware of the FAQ clarification that CM is carried out as two seperate attacks. However I still believe (a dangerous wording I know) that CM attacks are rolled seperate to illustrate how a cluster of missiles are being hurdled towards the target ship. And since the Jan-buffed ship was buffed when it started the attack (i.e. when it spent the TL) then I really can't logically understand why it should loose the extra dice on the second attack. And yes, I now that Marksmanship was clarified in the same FAQ to modify both CM attacks, and that the wording of Jan isn't worded the same way, but it still says (just like Kath's ability) that the buff works "...when attacking.."

And I am steering clear of the in-depth semantics of "triggers" etc. since I am not fluent enough to go into that area, certainly not in this thread.

Yep. Cluster Missiles are two distinct attacks according to the FAQ and Jan only affects a single attack with her ability. Therefore, she can't help with both attacks.

Huh?!? Please explain it to this simpleton why that is so? Allow me to bring in Howlrunner into this in order to examplify:

Howlrunner: " When another friendly ship at Range 1 is attacking with its primary weapon, it may reroll 1 attack die "

Shouldn't her ability only be able to modify the FIRST attack if Kath (with Gunner) misses and then uses the Gunner, or would you not also let Howlrunner re-roll 1 of the Gunner's attack dice? This is truly a case of 2 seperate and distinct attacks and this is further distinguished from the 2 CM "perform this attack twice" by the fact that when you use Gunner you are in fact allowed to switch to another target than the one Kath rolled for.

In my little world (which obviously seems very simple to some of you guys) the wording for Howlrunners ability and Jan's are EXACTLY the same, and Jan even takes a stress in order to grant her buff to the attacking ship.

I will, as always, obey and abide to a FAQ ruling

Two attacks. Attacks the same target twice. A Mensa member can probably spell imbecile. Nobody said this was too powerful, just that it's not how it works. The ship isn't still attacking, it's attacking again. Because Kath says "when attacking," all inclusive, full stop. Blue was a terrible, illegible choice.

LOL, fortunately I am not claiming fluency in English as it is not my first language, and I was too lazy to run spellcheck on my posting. Luckily it seems like your far superior mind was able to grasp my point nonetheless, which only serves to speak vloumes of your intellects supremacy

And the same goes to your abilty and goodwill to let my unfortunate choice of color pass uncommented

Take care

The difference being, Howlrunner's ability doesn't STRESS her, so there's nothing preventing her from affecting subsequent attacks. Also she says primary weapon only, and thus doesn't affect cluster missiles at all. But otherwise yes, totally identical.

The difference being, Howlrunner's ability doesn't STRESS her, so there's nothing preventing her from affecting subsequent attacks. Also she says primary weapon only, and thus doesn't affect cluster missiles at all. But otherwise yes, totally identical.

• First of all I was not advocating that Howlrunners ability could ever be used on a secondary weapon attack, so that's beside my point
• Secondly, there are NUMEROUS Pilot Abilities that are completely distinct (detattched??) from whether or not the pilot is stressed (Han Solo, Backstabber, Krassis, Wedge etc etc) so that is not a valid point IMO

What is your response to this?

My response is that the one specific ability you're asking about - Jan Ors - HINGES on whether or not she is stressed, so none of the other abilities "detached" from whether the pilot is stressed matter at all in this case.

Gunner v. Cluster Missiles: Each attack granted by cluster missiles is distinct.

Jan Ors: When another friendly ship at Range 1-3 is attacking, if you have no stress tokens, you may receive 1 stress token to allow that ship to roll 1 additional attack die.

You discard a target lock and fire cluster missiles.

Attack 1: you decide to use Jan, and go through the steps of an attack. Roll attack dice. Modify attack dice (this is where Jan comes in: you check, she has no stress tokens, so you give her a stress token and add a die to your roll in addition to any other modifiers you commit). Defender rolls defense dice. Modify defense dice. Check for damage.

If the guy's not destroyed, you move on to attack #2 and go back through the steps. Roll attack dice. Modify attack dice. At this point you want to use Jan again, so you walk through her ability. Are you attacking? Check. If you have no stress tokens? Ch...oops, Jan has a stress token, so she is prevented from adding a die to your second roll. The steps of the attack proceed without her.

You can't just throw the Gunner ruling out the window because it doesn't help your argument: it sets a clear and so far ironclad precedent that Cluster Missiles are handled as two separate, distinct attacks, made by the same weapon against the same target. You resolve one, start to finish as outlined in the FAQ definition of 'steps of an attack,' if you still have a valid (ie: not blown up) target, you go back to step 1 and repeat.

If you used Jan in the first attack, she takes a stress token. If she has a stress token she is unable to contribute an attack die to the second attack. Period. This maybe would have been a question before the Gunner ruling. As it stands now, short of them directly going out of their way to contradict this as Jan being some special exemption, there is zero reason to think she's able to boost both attacks. Either attack? Absolutely. Both? No.

YOU brought Howlrunner into this as somehow helping your point. I pointed out that Howlrunner doesn't help your argument for two different reasons. 1. She has no clause (ie: "if you have no stress token," or "you cannot perform another attack this round") preventing her from affecting multiple attacks in a combat round. Jan does. 2. Holwrunner doesn't affect secondary weapons, and so she's a lousy example to use as precedent for a ruling on a secondary weapon. I didn't miss your point, Holwrunner completely misses your point.

CrookedWookie: The problem is that we DONT know that Jan Ors' ability is used in the modify attack dice step. It very well could be used in step 1 "Declare Target", at the same point where you calculate ranged combat bonuses (bottom of page 10 on to page 11). In fact, this is the point where it would make the most sense to do so since this is the first step where we calculate the number of attack/defense dice, and account for secondary weapons. If so, and I do say if, then the fact that both Cluster Missiles are restricted to the same target suggests that step 1 is a shared step for both attacks, and that only steps 2 through 7 are discrete to each attack of a cluster missile.

Personally, I think that Jan would have to take a second stress token to add a die to the second attack as well, but that is just a gut feeling. I imagine that if you could mix squads, then Captain Yorr would be able to take that first stress and Jan would be allowed to add a die the second time as well.

It does have to be one or the other though. Either Jans ability operates in a way that affects both affects both attacks from the Cluster Missile by adding a die (once) to the very beginning that modifies both, or it is allowed to "go off" for each separate attack (giving her a stress each time).

We do, because ALL dice modification happens in the Modify (whichever) Dice step.

And she can't take a second stress token to do it your way, because it clearly states her ability does not work if she already has a stress token.

And it doesn't have to be one or the other. Cluster causes two attacks, with two chances for her to modify dice. If you take advantage of the first, she is stressed when you come to the second.

The problem is, her ability CAN, minus the qualifier, affect both attacks. She simply comes with an exception clause that stops her ability from completing if she is stressed. So attack 2 triggers it, only to be shut down by the 'if she has a stress token' bit.

You misunderstood what I meant about it being one or the other. I meant that either she stresses once to affect both, or she stresses each time. It would not be correct to say that she is only able to modify one of the two (though practically stress may prevent her from doing so).

As far as dice modification, it does not all take place in the modify step. According to the rules at the bottom of page 10 and going on to page 11:

Range Combat Bonuses

Depending on the range between the ships, the

attacker or defender may roll additional dice during this

attack (see “Roll Attack Dice” and “Roll Defense Dice”

on pages 11–12). Range combat bonuses only occur

when a ship is attacking with its primary weapon.

This, unfortunately, occurs before step 2 "Roll Attack Dice". Even more unfortunately, step 2 refers to calculating the number of attack dice as well. So we have 2 places in the rules for accounting the number of dice. I believe we should do it in step 2, which would mean Jan Ors stresses once to add a die for each attack independently of one another, but there is a compelling argument to made the other way especially since Cluster Missiles says that you should perform "this attack twice" rather than that you should perform two attacks (which would require 2 target locks).

Also, you calculate and roll the appropriate number of dice (depending on range) in Step 2 "Roll Attack Dice". If you are receiving an additional attack die due to range, it is rolled there not during step 3 "Modify Attack Dice". So it is not correct that all calculations and rolling of additional dice occurs during step 3.

Gunner is a completely different creature entirely, since you have no restrictions at all. Gunner does not require the same weapon, or the same target, and is a separate and unrelated attack in every way. Cluster Missiles is not the same since a single Target Lock suffices for "both" and you are required to shoot the same target with both.

Personally, I think that if you read it the other way (where Jan adds a die to cluster missiles in general) then you must consider that it only allows you to add a single die, not two. So if you are considering "both parts" of Cluster Missiles to be portions of a single attack for purposes of Cluster Missiles' text, then you must be consistent and consider them to be one attack for purposes of Jan Ors' text. This would mean that you still only get to add one die to the entire attack regardless of how many pieces you divide it into, though you could pick which of the two "sub-attacks" you could add that die to.

To be clear, I think you need to activate Jan twice if you want to add a die to each part of a single Cluster Missile. But I understand the counter-argument, and it does have merit.

Ohh, this is going to be a good/interesting one:

I think Buh nailed it. It's what I was trying to explain, but as usual, better.

It lasts the entire duration of the attack - in fact the entire combat round, if you want to get technical, but if it's used she gets stressed and it can't get used again until that stress is cleared. As Buhalin said - if you could do some cross faction craziness where you had her with Captain Yorr (as an off the wall example), where he could take that stress token FOR her, she could in that example use her ability on both attacks of the cluster missile.

She adds the die. Takes a stress token. Yorr intercepts and takes the stress token for her. She now has no stress and is free to use her ability a second time.

I think a relevant part of the FAQ is on page 6, regarding cluster missiles triggering Gunner or Luke.

"Each attack granted by Cluster Missiles is distinct, so either attack can trigger Gunner/Luke Skywalker."

Also important to note that if you fire CM, miss, decide to trigger gunner - you are not allowed to resolve the second cluster missile attack. It is overwritten by the "You may make no further attacks this round" text on Gunner/Luke.

I think that's a pretty important precedent for how Cluster Missiles would interact with Jan, as well.

Which I now see Ken just very clearly explained RIGHT above this. I have literally no idea how I missed that post, so all due props to Ken for that answer first. I wish I could claim he snuck it in while I was typing this, but he posted that an hour ago.

So I guess we are now allowed to play cross fraction squads?? Last time I checked Jan Orr was a devoted Rebel while Yorr was more inclined towards the Dark Side?? Of course, seeing that we are dealing with a female and a male they COULD have become quite a bit too "friendly"

Edit: Just read your post more closely and realized that you had pointed out that you were aware of the cross fraction issue. Please accept my apology.

Jan is different from Howlrunner because... wait for it... Jan is different.

" If you have no stress tokens. .."

That's the key difference. Jan's ability is actually available for each attack, but you can't use it if you're stressed. That means if you use it on the first, you can't use it on the second. Unless we're still debating whether or not the Clusters count as two attacks, which I was hoping we'd resolved.

I disagree with CW on the timing, though - "When attacking..." applies to the entire attack process. This is the same as Dark Curse, whose "When defending" ability applies to the entire time he's the defender. We know that wording doesn't apply to a specific step, because DC stops focus spending both in Step 2 (by blocking secondary weapons) and Step 3 (by stopping the attacker from using a focus token to modify their results).

Jan is different from Howlrunner because... wait for it... Jan is different.

" If you have no stress tokens. .."

That's the key difference. Jan's ability is actually available for each attack, but you can't use it if you're stressed. That means if you use it on the first, you can't use it on the second. Unless we're still debating whether or not the Clusters count as two attacks, which I was hoping we'd resolved.

I disagree with CW on the timing, though - "When attacking..." applies to the entire attack process. This is the same as Dark Curse, whose "When defending" ability applies to the entire time he's the defender. We know that wording doesn't apply to a specific step, because DC stops focus spending both in Step 2 (by blocking secondary weapons) and Step 3 (by stopping the attacker from using a focus token to modify their results).

It is very frightening to once again be opening the apocalyptic "can of worms" that the CM "...to perform this attack twice.." has become. I guess no one would ever have imagined that this would become such a huge issue. I will dare taking just a sneak peak under the lid of said can by uttering the following:

In my humble world there is still a difference between "perform this attack twice" and "perform 2 attacks". Mind you, I am not, repeat NOT , saying that CM's attacks aren't distinct but it is still part of the (how can I say it without being assaulted/accused for coming up with a totally new and far fetched concept?? Ahh, I think this might work out) overall singular attack made when you launch/fire the CM. My reasoning being that if the 2 CM distinct attacks very truly as distinct as, let's say Kath followed by Gunner, then how are you at all able to roll the second attack for the CM?? You just spent the TL foron the first attack?? And just before you come down upon me and " strike down upon me with great vengeance and furious anger " I will provide you with the answer; it is because, as we all know, the CM card says: "Spend your target lock and discard this card to perform (.....wait for it.....) this attack twice " FFG have even been so kind as to put "twice" in bold.

And just before I sneak off to bed let me stress that I am not claiming "superior knowledge" or to be "a keeper of the one and only truth" and actually find these disussions quite a learning experience as long as we can keep the tone at least semi friendly. I respect (though not necessarily agrre with) your opinions, but respect the FAQ even more :-)

Take care.

True, Jan adding a die would probably not be a modification. It's moot, though, since whatever step of an attack she kicked in, she'd still have a stress token on the second attack. I just haven't seen anything pointed out that convinces me the idea of Jan adding a bonus die to each cluster missile attack roll is anything more than wishful thinking.

My reasoning being that if the 2 CM distinct attacks very truly as distinct as, let's say Kath followed by Gunner, then how are you at all able to roll the second attack for the CM?? You just spent the TL foron the first attack?? And just before you come down upon me and " strike down upon me with great vengeance and furious anger " I will provide you with the answer; it is because, as we all know, the CM card says: "Spend your target lock and discard this card to perform (.....wait for it.....) this attack twice " FFG have even been so kind as to put "twice" in bold.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is here.

Spending a target lock is not an inherent requirement for secondary weapons, even missiles. Note the Homing Missile, which doesn't require you to spend the lock at all. So yes, you can clearly have both attacks from spending one target lock. And just to make sure we cover it ahead of time, nothing in a secondary weapon has an inherent requirement to discard the card for a single attack, either.

So the only floating question is whether the two attacks from the Clusters are separate, or one big attack. As I've pointed out repeatedly, even if you actively ignore the FAQ's pretty straightforward "Each attack is distinct" statement, the interaction with Gunner, tokens - honestly, everything - only works the way it does if/because each attack is its own entity.

Unless you can propose some set of interactions and timings that function with the FAQ entries we have while treating the Cluster as a single attack, there really isn't anywhere to go here. I can't convince you of something you pretty clearly don't want to believe, no matter how straightforward (for a change) the FAQ has made it. Play it as you will.

I will, as long as you promise to play it as you please to do :-)

Yeah it's rapidly becoming crazy talk. This one is, as he said, surprisingly straightforward. Unless she can mitigate the stress token, Jan can boost a single attack per turn. Cluster missiles has been clearly defined as two distinct, if conjoined, attacks, however you want to split hairs over the card wording. Ergo, she can add a die to one of them. It's a little nuts they clarified CM, only to have that definition challenged every time a new ability shows up that people would LIKE to have affect both attacks.

If the ability lasts all round, it will. If the ability is limited in some way, like Jan, unless you can find some way around it, it won't. I pointed out Jendon or whoever as a totally hypothetical example, as I'm sure down the road the Rebels may have something similar. For now, Jan's synergy with cluster missiles is just not as good as you would like it to be, period. It happens.

Someone once wrote:

" Accept that your views are subjective, other people will look at it differently, and the only objective basis for playing the game is the rules as they are printed. If something in the rules really does present a serious problem, try and work out the differences without resorting to namecalling and insults to get your way. Take it from someone who took that approach for far too long: that sort of behavior does absolutely nothing to improve the game for anyone."

And the same game wrote:

" Finally, I’ll quote Wil Wheaton: Don’t be a ****. If you really hit these situations, nobody is right or wrong. Give up the ruling and let your opponent have it, or go to dice. If you’re in a tournament or other competitive environment don’t waste game time arguing it, even if you’re sure the TO got it wrong. I’m (obviously) as intense as anyone when it comes to being right about rules, but it’s important to recognize that the problem in these situations lies with FFG and their rules team, not your opponent or the TO. Taking it out on them is just bad form."

Terrific, someone else also wrote that Cluster Missiles are TWO attacks, and that the wording "perform this attack twice" was simply meant as an indication that the attacks had to be on the same target. People seem content to twist that around to fit their own wishes, despite the seemingly clear definition in the FAQ. The only 'serious problem' presented in this rule is the fact a small group are so determined to twist a simple rule beyond any reasonable logic.