From my reading of the rules, you need to have a speed of 5+ in order to move to long range. Which is odd, since capital ship weapons are usually long range, and they are slow and ponderous. So they are not able to close range and release fighters.

I asked this very question for the Ask Jay Little episode of Order 66, but it wasn't answered, really.

For smaller craft—YT-1300 included—it's a bit of a moot point since their sensor range is usually short or close. With the range bands being what they are, anything outside of short I think is beyond visual range (medium is noted to be up to a few hundred KM). So once outside of visual or sensor range, you're looking for a needle in a GIGANTIC haystack.

-EF

The rules are written from the perspective that ships are opposing the efforts of other ships involved. They break down if two ships are trying to move away from one another.

What if one ship is moving, but the other is stationary? In AoR, we have the Interdictor cruiser, which projects a gravity well out to extreme range. How can any ship escape, then? Usually, the Interdictor just sits there, while the rest of its fleet attacks/captures/whatevers the target. Can someone escape it?

-EF

From my reading of the rules, you need to have a speed of 5+ in order to move to long range. Which is odd, since capital ship weapons are usually long range, and they are slow and ponderous. So they are not able to close range and release fighters.

I asked this very question for the Ask Jay Little episode of Order 66, but it wasn't answered, really.

For smaller craft—YT-1300 included—it's a bit of a moot point since their sensor range is usually short or close. With the range bands being what they are, anything outside of short I think is beyond visual range (medium is noted to be up to a few hundred KM). So once outside of visual or sensor range, you're looking for a needle in a GIGANTIC haystack.

-EF

I would expect Capital ships to be able to obtain a speed of 5+, however because of their large size, they would not be able to obtain that speed as quickly as a smaller ship (ie - no "Punch it").

What if one ship is moving, but the other is stationary? In AoR, we have the Interdictor cruiser, which projects a gravity well out to extreme range. How can any ship escape, then? Usually, the Interdictor just sits there, while the rest of its fleet attacks/captures/whatevers the target. Can someone escape it?

-EF

You'd have to go at max speed, and spend a few rounds gaining distance from the Interdictor. Assuming the Interdictor isn't also in pursuit. I'm not fluent in the starship rules, however, I could be wrong.

Sam Stewart answered this. In the Q&A Order 66 episode. Basically for the slower ships, crossing a range band is 2 manoeuvres I think, IIRC. So If starting at long range and then spending two manoeuvres to move towards the target, you move one range band closer, so you will at the end of two manoeuvres be at medium range. Then you spend two manoeuvres to cross the next range band and you would be at short range, and then close range for another 2 manoeuvres.

Sam Stewart answered this. In the Q&A Order 66 episode. Basically for the slower ships, crossing a range band is 2 manoeuvres I think, IIRC. So If starting at long range and then spending two manoeuvres to move towards the target, you move one range band closer, so you will at the end of two manoeuvres be at medium range. Then you spend two manoeuvres to cross the next range band and you would be at short range, and then close range for another 2 manoeuvres.

Took the words right outta my mouth. The distance is calculated from where you are at the start of your turn in the current round, whether you're vehicle-scale combat or personal-scale combat.

In short, it might take a few rounds of spending your turn doing nothing but moving towards the target (and hoping they're not trying to move away from you in the meantime) but you'll get there.

Sam Stewart answered this. In the Q&A Order 66 episode. Basically for the slower ships, crossing a range band is 2 manoeuvres I think, IIRC. So If starting at long range and then spending two manoeuvres to move towards the target, you move one range band closer, so you will at the end of two manoeuvres be at medium range. Then you spend two manoeuvres to cross the next range band and you would be at short range, and then close range for another 2 manoeuvres.

I just listened to that podcast and paid close attention to Sam's answer. What he said was a bit weird... he stated that a ship at long range from another ship could spend a maneuvers and then be at short range.

Here's a direct link to the show:

http://rpgpodcasts.com/metrics/logging_episode/32601

Start at 41:30 and see what you take away from it. I guess you have to re-evaluate the distance each round.

Sam Stewart answered this. In the Q&A Order 66 episode. Basically for the slower ships, crossing a range band is 2 manoeuvres I think, IIRC. So If starting at long range and then spending two manoeuvres to move towards the target, you move one range band closer, so you will at the end of two manoeuvres be at medium range. Then you spend two manoeuvres to cross the next range band and you would be at short range, and then close range for another 2 manoeuvres.

Took the words right outta my mouth. The distance is calculated from where you are at the start of your turn in the current round, whether you're vehicle-scale combat or personal-scale combat.

In short, it might take a few rounds of spending your turn doing nothing but moving towards the target (and hoping they're not trying to move away from you in the meantime) but you'll get there.

If it were you running the game Dono, would you agree that a ship which was at long range from an immobile target and that used two maneuvers to Fly at speed 3 directly toward it, that ship would be at Medium range from the same object for the start of the following range?

That feels right to me because it's how ir would work in personal scale combat.

If it were you running the game Dono, would you agree that a ship which was at long range from an immobile target and that used two maneuvers to Fly at speed 3 directly toward it, that ship would be at Medium range from the same object for the start of the following round?

That feels right to me because it's how it would work in personal scale combat.

Yep.

Since starship/vehicle combat uses a lot of the same base rules as personal-scale combat, it makes sense (to me at least) that they'd follow the same rules in these instances.

From my reading of the rules, you need to have a speed of 5+ in order to move to long range. Which is odd, since capital ship weapons are usually long range, and they are slow and ponderous. So they are not able to close range and release fighters.

I asked this very question for the Ask Jay Little episode of Order 66, but it wasn't answered, really.

For smaller craft—YT-1300 included—it's a bit of a moot point since their sensor range is usually short or close. With the range bands being what they are, anything outside of short I think is beyond visual range (medium is noted to be up to a few hundred KM). So once outside of visual or sensor range, you're looking for a needle in a GIGANTIC haystack.

-EF

I would expect Capital ships to be able to obtain a speed of 5+, however because of their large size, they would not be able to obtain that speed as quickly as a smaller ship (ie - no "Punch it").

Took the words right outta my mouth. The distance is calculated from where you are at the start of your turn in the current round, whether you're vehicle-scale combat or personal-scale combat.

In short, it might take a few rounds of spending your turn doing nothing but moving towards the target (and hoping they're not trying to move away from you in the meantime) but you'll get there.

If it were you running the game Dono, would you agree that a ship which was at long range from an immobile target and that used two maneuvers to Fly at speed 3 directly toward it, that ship would be at Medium range from the same object for the start of the following range?

That feels right to me because it's how ir would work in personal scale combat.

Yep.

Since starship/vehicle combat uses a lot of the same base rules as personal-scale combat, it makes sense (to me at least) that they'd follow the same rules in these instances.

I'm not trying to be stubborn/obstanent, I'm just trying to figure it out in the context of the rules as written. I'm a rules lawyer, so it's a reflex.

-EF

I think of the positioning in terms of zones. Same zone is close range, 1-2 zones away is short range, 3-4 zones away is medium range, and 5-6 zones away is long range. At speed 1 a ship can fly up to 1 zone with a maneuver, at speeds 2-4 it can fly two zones per maneuver, and at speeds 5-6 is can fly 3 zones per maneuver.

My notes aren't in front of me but I think this is consistent with the ship movement rules in the book.

I'm not trying to be stubborn/obstanent, I'm just trying to figure it out in the context of the rules as written. I'm a rules lawyer, so it's a reflex.

-EF

I'd say you need to relax that reflex and not try to focus so much on "rules specifically as written."

FFG has taken a rather 'indie' approach to this system, and most indie games prefer to set as few things in stone as they can. FATE Core is a prime example of this kind of thinking, having a very fluid and narrative structure to the game. Jay and Sam opted to go for that sort of feel rather than the hardcore tacti-crunch that embodies the d20 system, keeping things a bit looser than one might expect of a major game company.

That approach has it's positives and negatives though. As a positive, it gives the players and GM a lot more opportunity to interpret the rules within the needs of the adventure's story. As a negative, some rules are bit too much on the ambiguous side. And if you're coming over from a system that spells out most things in exacting detail, it's a tough mindset to wrap your head around, especially if you've only got limited experience with indie-style games.

I'm not trying to be stubborn/obstanent, I'm just trying to figure it out in the context of the rules as written. I'm a rules lawyer, so it's a reflex.

-EF

I'd say you need to relax that reflex and not try to focus so much on "rules specifically as written."

FFG has taken a rather 'indie' approach to this system, and most indie games prefer to set as few things in stone as they can. FATE Core is a prime example of this kind of thinking, having a very fluid and narrative structure to the game. Jay and Sam opted to go for that sort of feel rather than the hardcore tacti-crunch that embodies the d20 system, keeping things a bit looser than one might expect of a major game company.

That approach has it's positives and negatives though. As a positive, it gives the players and GM a lot more opportunity to interpret the rules within the needs of the adventure's story. As a negative, some rules are bit too much on the ambiguous side. And if you're coming over from a system that spells out most things in exacting detail, it's a tough mindset to wrap your head around, especially if you've only got limited experience with indie-style games.

My main games are Fate and Cortex Plus, so EotE is more structured than I'm used to. That might be it, really. The rest of the game is so well done that the one thing I love most—starships—seems to have fallen a little short.

The movement rules for characters are easy, simple, and intuitive. Starships, on the other hand, don't move the same, and I feel…something…about it. And I feel it strongly.

Maybe I should just go to sleep, and try again tomorrow

-EF

Maybe I should just go to sleep, and try again tomorrow

-EF

Always a good idea when one is getting frustrated over something.

So after reading various posts and listening to the Order 66 podcast where the designers answer questions, I'm still a bit muddy on how a starship moving at speed 3 would approach a target at long range.

Let's say the Millennium Falcon is traveling at speed 3. At long range from the Falcon is Slave I.

Has Solo, who is piloting the Falcon, declares that he's using one Fly maneuver to move the Falcon closer to Slave I. How far apart are the ships once that maneuver is complete?

(My assumed answer: they are still at long range)

What if Han Solo decided to use two Fly manevuers to move toward the Slave I. How close are the ships after both Fly maneuvers are complete?

(My assumed answer: the two ships are now at medium range from each other)

If the Falcon is flying at Speed 3 and spends one maneuver he is now Long - 1 Maneuver from Slave 1. So, still Long range for purposes of shooting, but he has moved closer. If next turn Han spends another maneuver in movement, the Falcon would be at Medium range at the end. This is assuming that Slave I is stationary .

It's probably not correct, but I basically break everything down into number of range bands to try to keep everything straight in my head. Close is 1 band, Short is 1, Medium is 2, Long is 2 and Extreme is 2. A ship moving at Speed 3, in this system would be moving one band per maneuver and that seems to fit with the book descriptions. A ship moving at Speed 5 would be moving 2 bands per maneuver

Edit: fjw70 said it much better than me

I think of the positioning in terms of zones. Same zone is close range, 1-2 zones away is short range, 3-4 zones away is medium range, and 5-6 zones away is long range. At speed 1 a ship can fly up to 1 zone with a maneuver, at speeds 2-4 it can fly two zones per maneuver, and at speeds 5-6 is can fly 3 zones per maneuver.

My notes aren't in front of me but I think this is consistent with the ship movement rules in the book.

I like this description, it does make things seem a bit clearer to me. Maybe using a grid would be helpful for starship movement, so you could quickly identify how many zones each ship is away from each other ship.

That's one option, anyway. I'm sure there are others.

After a good nap (who needs sleep, anyway?), I think I finally figured it out! This is a direct copy/paste from a similar thread in the AoR forum, so if you've already seen that, there is nothing new here:

I think I figured out why the vehicle movement rules irk me. They're based on the character-scale movement, but are subtly different, and I found the difference.

In character-scale movement, it's talked about in relation to your current range to someone/something and your new/desired range. One "maneuver allows a character to move between short and medium range relative to another person or object." So two maneuvers allows for movement between medium/long range.

But if you read the vehicle movement rules, it is all talked about in relation to close range. Speed 5-6 says one maneuver to move within close range, or move between close/medium, and two maneuvers to move between close/long. What if I'm at medium range and want to go to long? Or what if I'm at short and want to go to medium? Starship movement revolves around starting or ending at close range!

Speed 2-4 is a good base-line, since all craft I've seen has at least a speed of 2, except for the VSD and AT-AT walker.

So 1 maneuver to move within close. That's easy, and maps perfectly to character-scale movement. One maneuver to go between close/short—again, just like personal movement. Two maneuvers to move between close/medium. That breaks down to one maneuver to go from close to short, and one to go from short to medium. Exactly the same as character movement.

For character-scale movement, it's 2 maneuvers to go between medium/long, and between long/extreme, so it should map perfectly for vehicular movement, but it's not listed as an option. Changing speed to 1 increases the number of maneuvers it costs to move, 2 to move between close/short. That could mean something as simple as it costs 1 more maneuver to change range bands. Invert that, and ships moving at speed 5-6 should reduce the number of maneuvers by 1, so going really fast only benefits you if moving to or from long range—medium to long, long to medium, long to extreme, or extreme to long.

However, that idea falls through, because it's only 2 maneuvers to go from close to long at speeds 5-6, not three like my extrapolation suggests.

That is where I'm getting rubbed the wrong way.

-EF

Sam Stewart answered this. In the Q&A Order 66 episode. Basically for the slower ships, crossing a range band is 2 manoeuvres I think, IIRC. So If starting at long range and then spending two manoeuvres to move towards the target, you move one range band closer, so you will at the end of two manoeuvres be at medium range. Then you spend two manoeuvres to cross the next range band and you would be at short range, and then close range for another 2 manoeuvres.

I just listened to that podcast and paid close attention to Sam's answer. What he said was a bit weird... he stated that a ship at long range from another ship could spend a maneuvers and then be at short range.

Here's a direct link to the show:

http://rpgpodcasts.com/metrics/logging_episode/32601

Start at 41:30 and see what you take away from it. I guess you have to re-evaluate the distance each round.

I re-listened now. I was basing my example on speed 1 ships, which require 2 manoeuvres to move 1 range band (from close to short). Sam's answer was to Speed 2-4 ships, which require 2 manoeuvres to move 2 range bands, so therefore going going to medium range band from close, would be the same as going to short range from long, its the same amount of range bands.

Now, not sure its a better explanation, but they could've used number of range bands per manoeuvre as a way to explain this. This also makes vehicle movement slightly different than character movement, but that is to be expected as speeds and distances are completely different.

Yeah, essentially that's what I've done in my head - come up with a "Range Band Movement Rate" based on converting all the range bands to the number of Short Range Bands they are and how many you can move at different speeds.

Close = 1 Short Range Band

Short = 1

Medium = 2

Long = 2

Extreme - infinite

Speed 5 can move from Close to Medium => RBMR (tm ) of 2 per maneuver which matches moving from Close to Long in 2 maneuvers

I think of the positioning in terms of zones. Same zone is close range, 1-2 zones away is short range, 3-4 zones away is medium range, and 5-6 zones away is long range. At speed 1 a ship can fly up to 1 zone with a maneuver, at speeds 2-4 it can fly two zones per maneuver, and at speeds 5-6 is can fly 3 zones per maneuver.

My notes aren't in front of me but I think this is consistent with the ship movement rules in the book.

After thinking about this a little more I have decided to modify my approach. I basically had two zone systems that were similar but different (one for individuals and one for vehicles) and I would like to use a single system for both to avoid confusion.

Now i have

same zone is engaged/close range

Short range is one zone away

Medium range is 2-3 zones away

Long range is 4-5 zones away

Extreme is 6+

It takes 1 maneuver to move zones for individuals and normal speed vehicles (speeds 2-4). Slow vehicles (speed 1) take two maneuvers to move 1 zone and fast vehicles (speeds 5-6) can move 2 zones with one move.

This is consistent enough with the rules in the book and easy to use. I think I am happy now.

Yeah, that's the system I am using stated much more elegantly than I did

After thinking about this a little more I have decided to modify my approach. I basically had two zone systems that were similar but different (one for individuals and one for vehicles) and I would like to use a single system for both to avoid confusion.

Now i have

same zone is engaged/close range

Short range is one zone away

Medium range is 2-3 zones away

Long range is 4-5 zones away

Extreme is 6+

It takes 1 maneuver to move zones for individuals and normal speed vehicles (speeds 2-4). Slow vehicles (speed 1) take two maneuvers to move 1 zone and fast vehicles (speeds 5-6) can move 2 zones with one move.

This is consistent enough with the rules in the book and easy to use. I think I am happy now.

Nicely done, FJW